Sonnax Super Hold Servo(s) in a stock 4L60e?
09-13-2010, 10:37 AM
#1
Sonnax Super Hold Servo(s) in a stock 4L60e? Hey guys, I have a 2004 GTO 4L60e in my Datsun. I know it already it has the Corvette servo for 2nd gear, but I am highly considering buying the Sonnax 'Super Hold' servo for 4th gear. The tranny/converter have about 16k original miles on them. The car is daily driven, but sees some track duty about once a month.
What do you think, good or bad idea on a stock trans?
Later on down the road I will be adding the Trans-Go 4L60e-HD2 shift kit to allow WOT upshifts into overdrive. I was thinking of doing a TrailBlazer converter and maybe a Sonnax 2nd gear servo and pin at the same time.
Thanks!!
What do you think, good or bad idea on a stock trans?
Later on down the road I will be adding the Trans-Go 4L60e-HD2 shift kit to allow WOT upshifts into overdrive. I was thinking of doing a TrailBlazer converter and maybe a Sonnax 2nd gear servo and pin at the same time.
Thanks!!
09-16-2010, 11:10 AM
#3
On The Tree
Join Date: Jun 2007
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The 4th servo is a good idea , it will give you more holding capacity in 4th gear . That's the only benefit , and 4th needs all the help it can get in a 60E.
09-17-2010, 09:35 AM
#4
I was running the Sonnax billet super hold 2nd and 4th gear servos in my newly rebuilt 4L60E. Ended up taking them out and installing new factory Corvette servos.
We were having trouble getting the trans into 4th gear. When we re&re'd the billet servos we got 4h but started to lose 2nd. In the end I can't notice a difference with the Vette servo (which in later 4L60E models I understand they are already running anyways).
I originally wanted the "bigger" servos (30% more apply area). When both were side by side the trans dude showed me yes you could see the billet servo had slightly more area but it also had a narrower opening in the center (thats how they get more apply area). He said when you do ALL the calculations involved you're really not getting any significant improvement. In the end all the servo is doing is applying a band... rather than seeing noticeably faster acceleration or a few extra HP on a dyno (like they dyno in 4th to begin with) what you are likely to notice is wearing out and replacing the band much sooner. Go with a Fairbanks servo and watch your band wear out 50% sooner vs. stock/vette lol.
For my trans rebuild, I was more hyped up about the new 5 pinion planetary gearsets installed (basically making my trans a 4L65E). This mod alone is said to increase the transmissions durability by 25% Its something that should have come out decades ago.
PS - why do you want a shift kit? Is it for firmer shifts? If you are running a 4L60E in your Datsun I'd imagine you have to have a computer controlling it, right? Why not simply tune your computer for firmer shifts? That's the easiest and most effective way to do it.
Again, not sure what type of computer controls your car, but in our F-body's the PCM controls the trans and its not only smart but has the ability to learn. Guys who throw in a shift kit without any mods to the PCM are doing it backwards... using tighter springs and drilling holes into the valve body may very well increase pressure for firm shifts, but a factory PCM will notice that the pressure is too high and electronically lower it (learn) on its own to compensate. Furthermore, because the PCM is able to think it can know that under light to moderate acceleration it doesn't have to deliver a neck snapping shifts. But the more throttle you deliver the firmer the shift it will give (so under WOT it will give you the hardest shift it can) - this can all be done electronically. Its the beauty of the 4L60"E". Guys who permanently modify their trans valvebody are setting up for permanent neck snapping shifts at slow speeds/low acceleration and a PCM that will be constantly fighting to work against this hard shifting (b/c it knows it dumb! lol).
PPS - my trans guys had showed me a typical shift kit. They said there are literally only two or three pieces in than entire box of **** that actually do the work. Companies have to package a bunch of other **** to justify charging what they do for a few pieces that cost a few cents to make.
We were having trouble getting the trans into 4th gear. When we re&re'd the billet servos we got 4h but started to lose 2nd. In the end I can't notice a difference with the Vette servo (which in later 4L60E models I understand they are already running anyways).
I originally wanted the "bigger" servos (30% more apply area). When both were side by side the trans dude showed me yes you could see the billet servo had slightly more area but it also had a narrower opening in the center (thats how they get more apply area). He said when you do ALL the calculations involved you're really not getting any significant improvement. In the end all the servo is doing is applying a band... rather than seeing noticeably faster acceleration or a few extra HP on a dyno (like they dyno in 4th to begin with) what you are likely to notice is wearing out and replacing the band much sooner. Go with a Fairbanks servo and watch your band wear out 50% sooner vs. stock/vette lol.
For my trans rebuild, I was more hyped up about the new 5 pinion planetary gearsets installed (basically making my trans a 4L65E). This mod alone is said to increase the transmissions durability by 25% Its something that should have come out decades ago.
PS - why do you want a shift kit? Is it for firmer shifts? If you are running a 4L60E in your Datsun I'd imagine you have to have a computer controlling it, right? Why not simply tune your computer for firmer shifts? That's the easiest and most effective way to do it.
Again, not sure what type of computer controls your car, but in our F-body's the PCM controls the trans and its not only smart but has the ability to learn. Guys who throw in a shift kit without any mods to the PCM are doing it backwards... using tighter springs and drilling holes into the valve body may very well increase pressure for firm shifts, but a factory PCM will notice that the pressure is too high and electronically lower it (learn) on its own to compensate. Furthermore, because the PCM is able to think it can know that under light to moderate acceleration it doesn't have to deliver a neck snapping shifts. But the more throttle you deliver the firmer the shift it will give (so under WOT it will give you the hardest shift it can) - this can all be done electronically. Its the beauty of the 4L60"E". Guys who permanently modify their trans valvebody are setting up for permanent neck snapping shifts at slow speeds/low acceleration and a PCM that will be constantly fighting to work against this hard shifting (b/c it knows it dumb! lol).
PPS - my trans guys had showed me a typical shift kit. They said there are literally only two or three pieces in than entire box of **** that actually do the work. Companies have to package a bunch of other **** to justify charging what they do for a few pieces that cost a few cents to make.
09-18-2010, 02:31 AM
#5
"I originally wanted the "bigger" servos (30% more apply area). When both were side by side the trans dude showed me yes you could see the billet servo had slightly more area but it also had a narrower opening in the center (thats how they get more apply area). He said when you do ALL the calculations involved you're really not getting any significant improvement. In the end all the servo is doing is applying a band..." No, the main reason of going with this servo is to improve the 2-3 shift, and the life of the 3-4 clutch pack. You can make the 553 or the Corvette servo shift as firm as you want.
"rather than seeing noticeably faster acceleration or a few extra HP on a dyno (like they dyno in 4th to begin with) what you are likely to notice is wearing out and replacing the band much sooner. Go with a Fairbanks servo and watch your band wear out 50% sooner vs. stock/vette lol." When the apply feed hole in the separator plate and the accumulator is "matched", the 2-4 band will live longer.
"For my trans rebuild, I was more hyped up about the new 5 pinion planetary gearsets installed (basically making my trans a 4L65E). This mod alone is said to increase the transmissions durability by 25% Its something that should have come out decades ago." Again not true. Many of the top builders of 700R4 and 4L60E transmissions have used the 4 pinion planetaries successfully in many 9 & 10 second vehicles. All of mine have these and have never broken one. There is a story as to "why" GM when with 5 pinion planetaries, and it is not what you think.
"PS - why do you want a shift kit? Is it for firmer shifts? If you are running a 4L60E in your Datsun I'd imagine you have to have a computer controlling it, right? Why not simply tune your computer for firmer shifts? That's the easiest and most effective way to do it." The computer can do nothing for WOT shifts as far as line pressure changes. It can make firmer part throttle shifts, but that is not what the TransGo shift kit does when installed correctly. I modify these kits to do even more, smoother part throttle shifts and quicker WOT shifts. Hard shifts are not what you want. You want the shifts to "match" the torque output. A quick shift is the best at WOT, not an overly firm shift.
PPS - my trans guys had showed me a typical shift kit. They said there are literally only two or three pieces in than entire box of **** that actually do the work. Companies have to package a bunch of other **** to justify charging what they do for a few pieces that cost a few cents to make. That might be true of a B&M valve body kit. You need to talk to someone who "knows" these transmissions, and it doesn't sound like it is this gentleman.
"rather than seeing noticeably faster acceleration or a few extra HP on a dyno (like they dyno in 4th to begin with) what you are likely to notice is wearing out and replacing the band much sooner. Go with a Fairbanks servo and watch your band wear out 50% sooner vs. stock/vette lol." When the apply feed hole in the separator plate and the accumulator is "matched", the 2-4 band will live longer.
"For my trans rebuild, I was more hyped up about the new 5 pinion planetary gearsets installed (basically making my trans a 4L65E). This mod alone is said to increase the transmissions durability by 25% Its something that should have come out decades ago." Again not true. Many of the top builders of 700R4 and 4L60E transmissions have used the 4 pinion planetaries successfully in many 9 & 10 second vehicles. All of mine have these and have never broken one. There is a story as to "why" GM when with 5 pinion planetaries, and it is not what you think.
"PS - why do you want a shift kit? Is it for firmer shifts? If you are running a 4L60E in your Datsun I'd imagine you have to have a computer controlling it, right? Why not simply tune your computer for firmer shifts? That's the easiest and most effective way to do it." The computer can do nothing for WOT shifts as far as line pressure changes. It can make firmer part throttle shifts, but that is not what the TransGo shift kit does when installed correctly. I modify these kits to do even more, smoother part throttle shifts and quicker WOT shifts. Hard shifts are not what you want. You want the shifts to "match" the torque output. A quick shift is the best at WOT, not an overly firm shift.
PPS - my trans guys had showed me a typical shift kit. They said there are literally only two or three pieces in than entire box of **** that actually do the work. Companies have to package a bunch of other **** to justify charging what they do for a few pieces that cost a few cents to make. That might be true of a B&M valve body kit. You need to talk to someone who "knows" these transmissions, and it doesn't sound like it is this gentleman.
09-20-2010, 09:48 AM
#6
"I originally wanted the "bigger" servos (30% more apply area). When both were side by side the trans dude showed me yes you could see the billet servo had slightly more area but it also had a narrower opening in the center (thats how they get more apply area). He said when you do ALL the calculations involved you're really not getting any significant improvement. In the end all the servo is doing is applying a band..." No, the main reason of going with this servo is to improve the 2-3 shift, and the life of the 3-4 clutch pack....
"rather than seeing noticeably faster acceleration or a few extra HP on a dyno (like they dyno in 4th to begin with) what you are likely to notice is wearing out and replacing the band much sooner. Go with a Fairbanks servo and watch your band wear out 50% sooner vs. stock/vette lol." When the apply feed hole in the separator plate and the accumulator is "matched", the 2-4 band will live longer.
"For my trans rebuild, I was more hyped up about the new 5 pinion planetary gearsets installed (basically making my trans a 4L65E). This mod alone is said to increase the transmissions durability by 25% Its something that should have come out decades ago." Again not true. Many of the top builders of 700R4 and 4L60E transmissions have used the 4 pinion planetaries successfully in many 9 & 10 second vehicles. All of mine have these and have never broken one. There is a story as to "why" GM when with 5 pinion planetaries, and it is not what you think.
This argument of yours weak dude, if it can even be considered an agrument. I said the 5-pinion gear set is stronger than the 4-pinion. You claim it isn't and provide no evidence whatsoever to support it. Then you elude to a source that might lol. When did I (or whoever did?) say you can't build a 4L60E to run 10's - I too know full well people who have built these things to handle big HP. Its like saying you can't make 500hp with an LT1 shortblock, or that an LT1 block can't be bored & stroked to over 400cid, etc. People have done this. Although how long these setups last is another issue.
Please post a link or a partial bibliography of the GM "story" you mentioned as it sounds interesting. Unless this is one of those stories you heard from a buddy who has an uncle that knows a guy in GM, etc...
"PS - why do you want a shift kit? Is it for firmer shifts? If you are running a 4L60E in your Datsun I'd imagine you have to have a computer controlling it, right? Why not simply tune your computer for firmer shifts? That's the easiest and most effective way to do it." The computer can do nothing for WOT shifts as far as line pressure changes. It can make firmer part throttle shifts, but that is not what the TransGo shift kit does when installed correctly. I modify these kits to do even more, smoother part throttle shifts and quicker WOT shifts. Hard shifts are not what you want. You want the shifts to "match" the torque output. A quick shift is the best at WOT, not an overly firm shift.
[PPS - my trans guys had showed me a typical shift kit. They said there are literally only two or three pieces in than entire box of **** that actually do the work. Companies have to package a bunch of other **** to justify charging what they do for a few pieces that cost a few cents to make. That might be true of a B&M valve body kit. You need to talk to someone who "knows" these transmissions, and it doesn't sound like it is this gentleman.
...and not like I should or need to justify, but I will say I took my trans to a local shop based on referrals. The place has been in business since the 60's (father & son shop) and although they do a ton of classic transmissions the 700R4/4L60E is by far their most popular package. This place warranties their transmissions for 20,000 km, and although racing doesn't exactly count I was assured (there's even a wager) that if/when I'm doing wheelies off the line at the dragstrip and anything BUT the bell housing brakes, my trans will be fixed. The guy knows what my car and intent is all about, and based on what we've built that's why he's bet if anything is going to break its going to be the bellhousing.
It all comes down to referral business. The best way to go in any business/industry.
