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Old 10-24-2015, 12:49 PM   #1
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Default ls2 180 degree headers

I would like solid proof of pros and cons for this setup. ive heard too much rap about how lsx is unaffected and im tired of hearing people talk **** with no *** to back it. where the proof?!?! my mind, theres a reason we see gains from larger collectors... its because its still a 90 degree v8 and it has the exhaust pulse jamming issue. 180s would solve this. on top of it, I would like my car to have no mount Everest peak style dyno charts, I want a smooth and flat power and tq curve. its an ls2, its getting a cam, and heads. itll produce enough power there. now to get that power very broad.

1, 2, 3, go guys
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Old 10-25-2015, 03:01 AM   #2
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I would think that in order to take full advantage of your desired header, you'd need a firing order change (cam change) and a flat plane crankshaft.
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Old 10-26-2015, 11:08 AM   #3
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These cars barely have space to fit a traditional header and you're talking about 180* nonsense?

K
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Old 10-26-2015, 05:15 PM   #4
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I would think that in order to take full advantage of your desired header, you'd need a firing order change (cam change) and a flat plane crankshaft.
the point of the 180 degree is to eliminate the need for a firing order change and flat plane crank. doing either of those will call for the 180 idea to go out the window and cause problems with the headers.
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Old 10-26-2015, 05:20 PM   #5
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These cars barely have space to fit a traditional header and you're talking about 180* nonsense?

K
you sir, are speaking the bullshit I spoke of in the post. listen, if you cant see it, then YOU cant do it so don't stress your brain too much reading this.

now for anyone that would like to get back to the main points of why it does or doesn't work and PROOF to support please. and I don't care about real estate issues btw. my car has as much space as my 79 chevy does about now or it will. aint afraid to cut and redesign the way it should be done.
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Old 10-28-2015, 03:35 PM   #6
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"It won't fit..." Lol. That's what she said.

People, in general, are pussies. Too afraid of failure to try anything new. So you are going to catch a lot of flak from traditionalists who just buy bolt-on equipment specifically for their application.

As for proof of the concept, I don't have any. Do I, personally, think that 180 headers are legit? Yes. Anyone who argues against the merits of exhaust scavenging is just plain ignorant.

If you want to do it, I say go for it. Document your process as thoroughly as possible, and provide the world with the exact proof in which you seek.

I can only assume that you understand that it will take more than just a fancy exhaust system to provide you with a broad, flat powerband. Your heads, cam, and intake will play a much larger role in manipulating the torque curve, but I imagine that you are well aware of this.

Your comment about not hurting your brain thinking about this if you aren't capable of imagining it, is absolutely spot on. Just because someone else is too, not stupid, but too close-minded to visualize the concept, in no way means that it cannot be done.
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Old 10-28-2015, 05:59 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by DavidBoren View Post
"It won't fit..." Lol. That's what she said.

People, in general, are pussies. Too afraid of failure to try anything new. So you are going to catch a lot of flak from traditionalists who just buy bolt-on equipment specifically for their application.

As for proof of the concept, I don't have any. Do I, personally, think that 180 headers are legit? Yes. Anyone who argues against the merits of exhaust scavenging is just plain ignorant.

If you want to do it, I say go for it. Document your process as thoroughly as possible, and provide the world with the exact proof in which you seek.

I can only assume that you understand that it will take more than just a fancy exhaust system to provide you with a broad, flat powerband. Your heads, cam, and intake will play a much larger role in manipulating the torque curve, but I imagine that you are well aware of this.

Your comment about not hurting your brain thinking about this if you aren't capable of imagining it, is absolutely spot on. Just because someone else is too, not stupid, but too close-minded to visualize the concept, in no way means that it cannot be done.
thank you for the support. it means a great deal. I will document everything I do but it wont be a build thread due to im already in the thought process of lifting my tunnel to do so. most will not even consider this but my floors are already missing and I said F@#% it, why not.

lifting the tunnel and refabricating my floors allows for way more possibilities then these cars normally permit.

I did however speak with steve at quantum about this and got a ridiculous quote off a set of headers he did in a third gen that should never have fit... BBC and 2 3/8s primaries.... $4900... but I saw pictures of them and the work involved... im impressed.

I do believe this can be done in my car and I want the results. im going through and trying to figure out how to make this a reality. currently my ls2 is a bare block and my car is not ready for the engine and steve wants the engine tranny and car in one package because he does not use a CAD system to design headers... he is old school and does it all in the car... buzz kill on my plan as I was planning on modifying the tunnel and center console to make this a reality and it seems im going to have to go through and hack then see if it works later... among getting the engine assembled as well...
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Old 11-07-2015, 07:12 AM   #8
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I would start on an engine dyno.

Run the numbers to see what primary length will work best, and be buildable. Build your own as cheap as possible (mild steel chinese flanges etc)

Then flog it for a couple runs, swap over to a set of traditional long tubes, and make a couple more pulls.

Its the only way to determine the actual gains.

Then you can decide if the gains, and change in sound, are worth the costs and work to re-work the floor of the car, and pay for a high end set of headers.
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Old 11-08-2015, 09:41 PM   #9
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I helped a friend fab a set for a supercharged Porsche 928S4, nightmare and not sure I'd volunteer to help do another set. Car does sound unique and makes really good power for what it is. 180 headers into skngle 4 inch pipe. If you have patience and skill, anything is possible. I don't even want to think about how many hours are in those headers and exhaust...
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Old 11-09-2015, 11:02 AM   #10
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Car in this video is Danny Popp and his Z06. Here is the thread: back in 06:
http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/...tml?forum_id=1


Don't go looking on a forum like this for "proof" of a header design that 1)doesn't fit 2)no one will try make it fit/work.

Consider the source, while there are some smart engineer style minds on this site, there are also people that don't have a CLUE...the kind that ask "what muffler is best flowmaster or magnaflow?"

IMO, do the research to prove to yourself that 180* headers work on ANY application. Start the design process, build, dyno it and make your point.

I get some crazy ideas myself, but certain things stop me from moving forward on them
1)cost vs benefit (not going to spend $500 on something to give me 2hp...)
2)tools/equipment I have available not up to the job
3)my theory, through research proves to not be correct

Last edited by smitty2919; 11-09-2015 at 11:17 AM.
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Old 11-10-2015, 02:47 PM   #11
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I have seen them marketed as "bundle-o-snakes" headers, as well. Something I noticed, though, is that the bundle of snakes headers usually do all the complicated crossover piping in front of the engine, rather than below it. So if you have room in front of the accessory drive assembly, you can utilize that space for your headers.

Have you considered getting a set of the sbc 180 headers, and just switching the two pipes to fit the LSx firing order?
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Old 11-11-2015, 09:56 AM   #12
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As I am new hear.. names Eric btw.
Van Gui1d3r #838... my advice to you is look at your overall/ VE of your motor and how many cfms your heads flow on the suck and squeeze strokes, Assuming this is a NA build with those number you can THEN dictate where you put the tq and hp via primary length&size and where the exhaust "snap" occurs... everyone probably already knows this... but as you asked about exhaust pulse jamming issue and the proof... not to offend anyone but its just plain common sense the reasons 180*, 8into1 4 into 2 into 1 etc are better and equal to a flat plane crank.. less work & heat need to keep gasses in movement thus = more efficiency and a larger tq curve. All food for though.
Call up burns or flow-master. They have always gave proof of concepts or proper directions to look in. so i hope this can help you out a bit
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Old 11-11-2015, 05:07 PM   #13
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Eric speaks the truth.

Welcome aboard, Eric.

A flat plane crank does absolutely nothing for the actual exhaust flow. It just turns a v8 into two 4-bangers firing opposite of each other, which makes the exhaust sound different, but does nothing to influence the flow.

Exhaust scavenging would still be beneficial for a flat plane crank.

I am definitely intrigued as to whether or not 180 headers with an X-pipe would provide an advantage over tri-Y headers with a X-pipe.

I guess there's only one way to find out...
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Old 11-12-2015, 03:42 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krom View Post

Then you can decide if the gains, and change in sound, are worth the costs and work to re-work the floor of the car, and pay for a high end set of headers.
my floors are already cut to repair rust and rework them for a different purpose. to lift the tunnel at this point will only cost the time to move it up and weld

Quote:
Originally Posted by GSAWYERS View Post
I helped a friend fab a set for a supercharged Porsche 928S4, nightmare and not sure I'd volunteer to help do another set. Car does sound unique and makes really good power for what it is. 180 headers into skngle 4 inch pipe. If you have patience and skill, anything is possible. I don't even want to think about how many hours are in those headers and exhaust...
patience is no problem as its been 3 years since I drove this car. just been buying parts and planning the build when possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty2919 View Post
Car in this video is Danny Popp and his Z06. Here is the thread: back in 06:
http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/...tml?forum_id=1

Corvette with 180 Degree Headers - YouTube

Don't go looking on a forum like this for "proof" of a header design that 1)doesn't fit 2)no one will try make it fit/work.

Consider the source, while there are some smart engineer style minds on this site, there are also people that don't have a CLUE...the kind that ask "what muffler is best flowmaster or magnaflow?"

IMO, do the research to prove to yourself that 180* headers work on ANY application. Start the design process, build, dyno it and make your point.

I get some crazy ideas myself, but certain things stop me from moving forward on them
1)cost vs benefit (not going to spend $500 on something to give me 2hp...)
2)tools/equipment I have available not up to the job
3)my theory, through research proves to not be correct
I agree with everything you say here. I only made a post because the information out there is very little. my abilities are endless only limited by time and income but I'm more than capable of making more money when I need to for something of this size.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidBoren View Post
I have seen them marketed as "bundle-o-snakes" headers, as well. Something I noticed, though, is that the bundle of snakes headers usually do all the complicated crossover piping in front of the engine, rather than below it. So if you have room in front of the accessory drive assembly, you can utilize that space for your headers.

Have you considered getting a set of the sbc 180 headers, and just switching the two pipes to fit the LSx firing order?
the flanges are completely different as well meaning more pipe fab then just switching and It could negatively effect primary lengths which is crucial in this design

also I cant use the front as I'm trying to distribute weight better in the car for cornering purposes and going forward with them is contradicting everything ive done thus far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shtoooobs View Post
As I am new hear.. names Eric btw.
Van Gui1d3r #838... my advice to you is look at your overall/ VE of your motor and how many cfms your heads flow on the suck and squeeze strokes, Assuming this is a NA build with those number you can THEN dictate where you put the tq and hp via primary length&size and where the exhaust "snap" occurs... everyone probably already knows this... but as you asked about exhaust pulse jamming issue and the proof... not to offend anyone but its just plain common sense the reasons 180*, 8into1 4 into 2 into 1 etc are better and equal to a flat plane crank.. less work & heat need to keep gasses in movement thus = more efficiency and a larger tq curve. All food for though.
Call up burns or flow-master. They have always gave proof of concepts or proper directions to look in. so i hope this can help you out a bit
thank you Eric. I will attempt to call these guys and yes I need to do much studying as I'm currently acquiring all the formulas I need to plan out this exhaust and find out how to build it to give me the broadest power band and tq. also thinking stepped may be the proper approach as I would like to spin the engine to 7200-7600 without issues of hitting exhaust restrictions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidBoren View Post
Eric speaks the truth.

Welcome aboard, Eric.

A flat plane crank does absolutely nothing for the actual exhaust flow. It just turns a v8 into two 4-bangers firing opposite of each other, which makes the exhaust sound different, but does nothing to influence the flow.

Exhaust scavenging would still be beneficial for a flat plane crank.

I am definitely intrigued as to whether or not 180 headers with an X-pipe would provide an advantage over tri-Y headers with a X-pipe.

I guess there's only one way to find out...
well with a flat plane crank, I'm pretty sure they fire back and forth between banks which in turn puts a pulse through each collector at 180 degree intervals. after that yes I assume they could benefit from exhaust tuning like primary diameter and length.


everyone, keep up the ideas, suggestions and information where applicable. its good to see positive responses.

o yea and I got a quote from a local performance shop with a killer rap. estimated $4000 so it looks like ill be filling a few notebooks with information, calculations, and design ideas and spending countless hours on this. currently waiting on my mock-up engine to show up hopefully this weekend ON!!!
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Old 11-12-2015, 04:08 PM   #15
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4000 to do the headers? I dunno what the total materials needed are but that's a lot more than I would think fwiw. I can tell you it cost me under 1500 for all the materials to build the 2 3/8 stepped to 2 1/2 primary, 5 inch collector muffler and 5 inch front exit headers I'm building now for my BBC equipped transam, fwiw.

I know labor ain't cheap but there's robbing people and there's not.
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Old 11-12-2015, 04:15 PM   #16
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4000 to do the headers? I dunno what the total materials needed are but that's a lot more than I would think fwiw. I can tell you it cost me under 1500 for all the materials to build the 2 3/8 stepped to 2 1/2 primary, 5 inch collector muffler and 5 inch front exit headers I'm building now for my BBC equipped transam, fwiw.

I know labor ain't cheap but there's robbing people and there's not.
I strongly agree but what I know they have going for them is happy customers after job is complete. maybe not with their wallets but I guess what they offer is a step or 2 above all bolt on headers and no one complains about their gains. that's why I called. but they doubled my expectations as far as price for just flanges to collectors...
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Old 11-12-2015, 09:15 PM   #17
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I hear ya, just be smart about it that's all I can say, I'd shop around a little bit.
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Old 11-12-2015, 11:39 PM   #18
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Stepped has some very good potential as does oval tubing, but remember to keep volumes and bends simple and alike. May I ask your engine combo and what "work" loads you might be putting out read via ecu at those rpm's... reason i say this is im very into endurance racing, baja basically anything but straight line racing lol so I get picky with my tunes and trying to improve our inefficient air pumps to broaden the tq in the "work" or use-able zones...this is just getting off track to be honest.. If you have time id really look up old Bosch f1 days, group b cars and c cars and modern race cars with sound decibels limitations and just for look Steve Dinan(bosch bmw tuner) Smokey Yunick and last but not least anything to do with Harry Ricardo(100mpg 1.5L petrol engine

Indeed true but have correct primary placement via orientation in the collector you can also achieve putting a pluse at correct intervals. FYI flat plane cranks drive like a 4 banger....cause there nothing more than 2 four banger tied at the crank in simple terms, they can chill at low rpms with ok efficiency and scream at high r's with a tq band thats very usable



o yea and I got a quote from a local performance shop with a killer rap. estimated $4000 so it looks like ill be filling a few notebooks with information, calculations, and design ideas and spending countless hours on this. currently waiting on my mock-up engine to show up hopefully this weekend ON!!![/QUOTE]
Sound about right.....sadlly... but its knowledge and time whether their right or not your PAYING them for something they know and can do....
your paying for things like this http://www.spdexhaust.com/pdfs/02-11...Collectors.pdf.
http://www.burnsstainless.com/techarticles.aspx
http://stainlessheaders.eclipticcms.com/headerdesign

Last edited by shtoooobs; 11-12-2015 at 11:52 PM. Reason: sorry for lack of quotes
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Old 11-13-2015, 05:19 AM   #19
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I'm building the engine to rev high and have very broad power. using stock bore and stroke, stock heads and only throwing in a cam really. heads may get slightly ported more or less port matching it to a good intake
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Old 11-14-2015, 05:50 PM   #20
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Sound like what I'm up to as well, with differences ofcource, blueprinted&drysumped lq4, pair of fresh 317 heads with a custom ground cam, 8into1 headers stuffed into a 95 e34 bmw wagon. I'm scared to rev past 6500 but with proper cam and tune youll see a pretty broad power band.
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