VE Table Cracked
03-24-2004, 07:29 AM
#81
Originally Posted by gameover
That's right, like spark you just increase it until you hear pinging, fuel you add more until it's right, shift firmness until you like the shift... but then it would be a funny conversation about how many whatsits of timing you put in at certain thingamajig of airflow to achieve the optimum sherwing of go fast stuff now wouldn't it?? 
03-24-2004, 08:38 PM
#82
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I tried dimensional analysis as jimmyblue suggested... that's how I arrived at my "definition of EditVE" from gameover's PCM calculation.
I'm still working on the units on NoGo's massflow calculation. If EditVE contains the cylinder volume, then there should be no need to multiply by displacement again...?
Since NoGo's math holds up for his tuning, I can't argue that it works. Like Bink said, some of us just like to understand how things work. silly
Bink, I think part of the difficulty with tuning VE from driving logs is the constantly varying engine load. Whats the best way to hold a load point long enough to get good data? Some points on the VE table seem really hard to achieve and hold (100 MAP, 1000 RPM). I imagine the wideband helps a lot.
I'm still working on the units on NoGo's massflow calculation. If EditVE contains the cylinder volume, then there should be no need to multiply by displacement again...?
Since NoGo's math holds up for his tuning, I can't argue that it works. Like Bink said, some of us just like to understand how things work. silly
Bink, I think part of the difficulty with tuning VE from driving logs is the constantly varying engine load. Whats the best way to hold a load point long enough to get good data? Some points on the VE table seem really hard to achieve and hold (100 MAP, 1000 RPM). I imagine the wideband helps a lot.
03-24-2004, 10:02 PM
#83
Originally Posted by deezel
I tried dimensional analysis as jimmyblue suggested... that's how I arrived at my "definition of EditVE" from gameover's PCM calculation.
I'm still working on the units on NoGo's massflow calculation. If EditVE contains the cylinder volume, then there should be no need to multiply by displacement again...?
Since NoGo's math holds up for his tuning, I can't argue that it works. Like Bink said, some of us just like to understand how things work. silly
Bink, I think part of the difficulty with tuning VE from driving logs is the constantly varying engine load. Whats the best way to hold a load point long enough to get good data? Some points on the VE table seem really hard to achieve and hold (100 MAP, 1000 RPM). I imagine the wideband helps a lot.
I'm still working on the units on NoGo's massflow calculation. If EditVE contains the cylinder volume, then there should be no need to multiply by displacement again...?
Since NoGo's math holds up for his tuning, I can't argue that it works. Like Bink said, some of us just like to understand how things work. silly
Bink, I think part of the difficulty with tuning VE from driving logs is the constantly varying engine load. Whats the best way to hold a load point long enough to get good data? Some points on the VE table seem really hard to achieve and hold (100 MAP, 1000 RPM). I imagine the wideband helps a lot.
For the rest of the cells I "handformed" ( interpolated/extrapolated) using the LS1Edit VE Graphs. I had some bizarre points on the VE graphs (spikes) that NoGo helped me with -> I adjusted the values to provide a smooth flowing curve.
I thought I logged a fair amount of data until I saw what HumpinSS did!!! He logged 3 times what I did!!
The wideband doesn't help much with VE datalogging at this point...but it does let me keep an eye on my AFR. It was a big help with the recent VE testing because the FJO Wideband outputs 30 frames per second (AFR, RPM, AUX/MAP and Time). NoGo could follow the MAP transitions and resultant AFR changes with better accuracy ( I think that's what he did..
).It's very difficult to synchronise the FJO Wideband output with EFILive ( MAF signal). Once EFILive brings thier FlashScan to market the Wideband will be alot more versatile.FWIW.
joel
03-24-2004, 10:05 PM
#84
Originally Posted by gameover
That's right, like spark you just increase it until you hear pinging, fuel you add more until it's right, shift firmness until you like the shift... but then it would be a funny conversation about how many whatsits of timing you put in at certain thingamajig of airflow to achieve the optimum sherwing of go fast stuff now wouldn't it??
- so you like knowing how things work too. 
joel
03-29-2004, 01:16 AM
#86
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Originally Posted by gameover
That's right, like spark you just increase it until you hear pinging, fuel you add more until it's right, shift firmness until you like the shift... but then it would be a funny conversation about how many whatsits of timing you put in at certain thingamajig of airflow to achieve the optimum sherwing of go fast stuff now wouldn't it??
OK! heres the answer to the equasion thingy, you dont need to know what those numbers represent in the ve table, simple as this, hold the revs at 2400 @ map 60 (thats an example by the way) and record the afr. now open up your ve table, crossrefrence the recorded data and add more numbers to richen or subtract numbers to lean the fuel mixture at that recorded map/rev!
YES ITS THAT EASY!
03-29-2004, 02:10 AM
#87
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Originally Posted by SS346
OK! heres the answer to the equasion thingy, you dont need to know what those numbers represent in the ve table, simple as this, hold the revs at 2400 @ map 60 (thats an example by the way) and record the afr. now open up your ve table, crossrefrence the recorded data and add more numbers to richen or subtract numbers to lean the fuel mixture at that recorded map/rev!
YES ITS THAT EASY!
YES ITS THAT EASY!
03-29-2004, 02:45 AM
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Originally Posted by gameover
he he, thats funny...
Gameover, i dont think there is any gain by using this eqasion, my car was tuned using my method, drives dead smooth, makes good power using a 240+ camshaft. 
03-29-2004, 09:36 AM
#91
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Originally Posted by Brains
I've got an eddy current dyno in my back pocket, don't you?
Originally Posted by NoGo
While your at it, hold the revs at 2000 with a Map of 100. 
That's just wide open throttle stuff N/A. You could actually do that on the street or even with an inertia type dyno.Girch, AKA SS346, tunes his own car with the help of his brother on their buddies DynoLog Eddy Current (load type) dyno.
You could actually ask Girch to hold his car at any RPM and throttle position percentage.
From there he’ll be able to report back all the values such as; manifold air pressure, ignition timing etc. The dyno he uses plugs into the OBDII port and reports back everything at quicker than Tech II speeds and logs it all the way through. (A little like EFI Live spliced into your dyno tables and graphs) But wait! These dyno’s have their own sensors too, such as 8 lambda sensors, twin calibrated 5 wire wide band AFR’s, ignition, fuel flow, CFM air flow meters, temp sensors etc, etc…. All whilst holding it at a certain load point… Yep, even your question of 2000rpm @ 100kpa… You could hold that parameter for a week if that’s what you want?
Oh! The list goes on… Look at this quirk for a simple example; They often use 3 manifold air pressure sensors. The one that came with the car (via OBD), the one plugged into the car and the one sitting out side of the car, just incase your chasing a MAP value that was never really there in the first place.
They are also 4WD chassis dyno’s (coupled) as we have quite a few factory built LS1 Powered 4WD’s over here.
BTW the shop I choose to use has all this plus an engine dyno that does more with the same software product and even more sensors.
Now this post isn’t about who’s got what, I’ve just written it because when someone new jumps in and makes some sense out of the equation, rather than use innuendos towards them or cast dispersions. Isn’t it better to ask the questions towards their findings?…. Do that and soon you’ll see all the laptop tuning yokels stop and listen, rather than ramble on… Like I just have!
NoGo, your question I feel has been answered. However, if SS346 would like to run that value up on the dyno then email me the data that you’ve asked for? I’ll happily host it for him.
If you have a problem with a 242/242 @106 LSA cam at 2000 rpm on WOT loaded…. I reckon you’ll be surprised with Girch’s readings. It’s his wife’s daily driver from what I understand.
Cheers
Pete.
03-29-2004, 09:47 AM
#92
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(replying on behalf of the "laptop tuning yokels")
I think most of us realize that the proper tools are needed to dial in a "perfect" tune. Not everyone has access to, or can afford a trip to the dyno every time they modify their engine.
What us yokels are trying to figure out is the best way to tune using logging software and a wideband O2 sensor. If we can understand how to use the information that we do have easy access to (i.e. logging software), we might be able to improve our tuning.
You pro's can talk about fancy-schmancy eddy current dynos and EGT sensors and 5 widebands and 3 MAP sensors all day long.... That doesn't help us "laptop tuning yokels" any...
I think most of us realize that the proper tools are needed to dial in a "perfect" tune. Not everyone has access to, or can afford a trip to the dyno every time they modify their engine.
What us yokels are trying to figure out is the best way to tune using logging software and a wideband O2 sensor. If we can understand how to use the information that we do have easy access to (i.e. logging software), we might be able to improve our tuning.
You pro's can talk about fancy-schmancy eddy current dynos and EGT sensors and 5 widebands and 3 MAP sensors all day long.... That doesn't help us "laptop tuning yokels" any...
03-29-2004, 10:06 AM
#93
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My cheap *** could barely afford edit so I can be a yokel myself. So a person like myself that doesnt make a living doing this stuff is going to need all the equations and loging software i can get my hands on to dial my car in AS close to perfect as possible.
03-29-2004, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by deezel
(replying on behalf of the "laptop tuning yokels")
You pro's can talk about fancy-schmancy eddy current dynos and EGT sensors and 5 widebands and 3 MAP sensors all day long.... That doesn't help us "laptop tuning yokels" any...
You pro's can talk about fancy-schmancy eddy current dynos and EGT sensors and 5 widebands and 3 MAP sensors all day long.... That doesn't help us "laptop tuning yokels" any...
Wouldn't it be easier to grab a chair in here and when you’re through listening, go work with your local tuner who actually may understand some stuff and own all the equipment that measures things correctly?
Good tuning equipment can usually set you back about $500,000 + It’s a long way from a laptop which can plug into your car one day then the internet the next. Don’t you think?
Yes HumpinSS... You asked me in here for my first ever tuning section response last week.... You've got it.
I really don't belong here.
03-29-2004, 12:21 PM
#96
Originally Posted by Plan B
You could actually ask Girch to hold his car at any RPM and throttle position percentage.
From there he’ll be able to report back all the values such as; manifold air pressure, ignition timing etc. The dyno he uses plugs into the OBDII port and reports back everything at quicker than Tech II speeds and logs it all the way through. (A little like EFI Live spliced into your dyno tables and graphs) But wait! These dyno’s have their own sensors too, such as 8 lambda sensors, twin calibrated 5 wire wide band AFR’s, ignition, fuel flow, CFM air flow meters, temp sensors etc, etc…. All whilst holding it at a certain load point… Yep, even your question of 2000rpm @ 100kpa… You could hold that parameter for a week if that’s what you want?
Oh! The list goes on… Look at this quirk for a simple example; They often use 3 manifold air pressure sensors. The one that came with the car (via OBD), the one plugged into the car and the one sitting out side of the car, just incase your chasing a MAP value that was never really there in the first place.
Cheers
Pete.
From there he’ll be able to report back all the values such as; manifold air pressure, ignition timing etc. The dyno he uses plugs into the OBDII port and reports back everything at quicker than Tech II speeds and logs it all the way through. (A little like EFI Live spliced into your dyno tables and graphs) But wait! These dyno’s have their own sensors too, such as 8 lambda sensors, twin calibrated 5 wire wide band AFR’s, ignition, fuel flow, CFM air flow meters, temp sensors etc, etc…. All whilst holding it at a certain load point… Yep, even your question of 2000rpm @ 100kpa… You could hold that parameter for a week if that’s what you want?
Oh! The list goes on… Look at this quirk for a simple example; They often use 3 manifold air pressure sensors. The one that came with the car (via OBD), the one plugged into the car and the one sitting out side of the car, just incase your chasing a MAP value that was never really there in the first place.
Cheers
Pete.
That's some serious stuff. I'll bet it would be great for setting up a Road Racer.Thank God I have my MAF and NoGo's equation.
joel
03-29-2004, 12:26 PM
#97
Originally Posted by HumpinSS
My cheap *** could barely afford edit so I can be a yokel myself. So a person like myself that doesnt make a living doing this stuff is going to need all the equations and loging software i can get my hands on to dial my car in AS close to perfect as possible.
joel
03-29-2004, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Plan B
Yes HumpinSS... You asked me in here for my first ever tuning section response last week.... You've got it.
I really don't belong here.
I really don't belong here.
Of course you belong here. This forum is here to share and welcome new ideas and innovations for the weekend warrior. Your information is greatly appreciated but at this point it is out of my scope.
03-29-2004, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by SS346
Gameover, i dont think there is any gain by using this eqasion, my car was tuned using my method, drives dead smooth, makes good power using a 240+ camshaft.An example, if scan tools were to output the raw numbers they receive rather than converting into "real" units how would you tune? Would you know that a raw value of 128 for the LTFT meant 0? Or would you know how many degrees of KR is a raw value of 100? Most people are used to seeing a VE table in % that's all this thread is about...