boostit5.3

iTrader: (3)

some back story.. the car is a 98 camaro z28 with a bolt on/cam only 5.3 on a 200 shot. when i got the car it was a roller i was told by the previous owner trans had already went out and he had it "built" by a local shop suppose to be good to 750hp. 3k stall converter.

i've never had an issue with it i was always super pleased by the way it shifted. when cruising you could hardly feel the 3rd or 4th shifts, with a very firm lock up almost like a 5th gear (previous owner had car tuned for it), but when you stood on the pedal every gear gave you a firm shift.

out of the blue last week i was on the way to wallmart to get some gas (10 mile round trip) the check engine light came on and trans started acting weird. (forgot the codes i cleared them but one was 1-4 shift performance and an o2 sensor code out of no where) and at first didnt want to lock up and didnt hit 4th a couple times. put it in normal drive and tried to get it home, once i got to the dirt road i live off of i shut it off and started it up and all the gears were gone. so i shut it off and wait like 5 minutes then start it again. this time all gears are there, i get it to my house and let it cool off all the way. later that day i go to put it in my cousins shop next door and it does the same thing to me, intermittent loss of all gears then i shut it off turn it back on a couple times and bam theres 1st reverse working perfectly it never slipped. i get it up on jack stands and find a severely dented deep pan (car was slammed when i got it, ive since put v6 springs on it). its not as low as it was when i first got it but i do live on a limerock/dirt road its possible ive wacked it with a rock or even a stump/root.





before hand i pulled a trans line off my cooler and it does pump out fluid so i wasnt sure about the pump yet. i get the pan off fluid is dark but doesnt smell burnt like i've smelled in the past but there is some aluminum flakes in there. tear the trans down to find some aftermarket parts and a zpack 3-4, the clutch material on it looked dark but upon closer inspection really dont look burnt up. i get the pump open and find this along with a couple aluminum slivers on the vanes, and a wiped out bushing (when i got it in the shop i thought i was hearing a whining). the bottom is all scored up and there is a couple deep gouges that catch a finger nail real good



now onto what im concerned with... since everything else looked kosher in the trans might i get away with throwing in a rebuilt pump with new pan/filter/etc and getting the tq converter flushed by a local trans shop??? the converter snout looks fine despite the condition of that front bearing... and would a filter starving the pump cause the pump to do this or is there something else in the trans i need to inspect?

wedo

Was the filter cracked ? The pump looks ok . Is that a babbit bushing or a teflon bushing . Bust the filter open after you look for cracks and see how dirty the dacron inside the filter is .Check the fwd sprag ,air check the fwd clutch drum with the clutches in the drum . I have seen a lot of automatics that will get towed in with a no movie complaint and they drive fine for a few blocks then won't move so if you shut it off let it sit a few minutes then start it and go a little ways then stop moving again . we always find a bunch of crap in the filter . So it sucks till the filter is so clogged that nothing gets through then when you shut it off the fluid draining back through the filter opens it up enough to move again .

mrvedit

So, you are thinking that the dented pan dislodged the filter?
That would cause a loss of all gears, but not obvious why only when warm.
Another hypothesis is that the well worn pump cannot hold pressure once the fluid warms up and thins out.

Obviously you need a new/rebuilt pump with good bushings. If you decide to open the "new" pump for inspection, you might as well install a high RPM spring.

We had a thread where the OP dented his pan and damaged a shift solenoid. If any dent touch a solenoid, I would replace it.

Converters cannot be reliably and fully flushed. They need to be cut open, fully cleaned, welded back together and balanced. Otherwise remaining metal shavings could clog a valve or cut a seal, causing even more grief.

boostit5.3

iTrader: (3)

wedo im not sure about the bushing i thought it was copper.. any way to check? didnt see a crack in the filter but i can check it more thoroughly. the fluid draining back and opening up the filter makes sense to me, filter looked clogged and along with the dented pan im sure it was starving the pump.

and no mrvedit it wasnt dislodged it was actually tight in the seal, i think the pan just dented up and maybe covered up the pick up part of the filter... then caused the pump to score up because of the restricted flow, which in turn got in the filter and made matters worse. and ill have to check and see if the dent was touching the solenoid cause thats a very good possibility, the shift solenoids are cheap anyways.

also the pump may look ok in the pic but there is a couple deep groves in there that has to be causing some kind of issue.. fluid also does seem real thin and not real red thought i would mention that. i was going to go with a reman pump and put the springs out of my pump in it, was also thinking about using the vane rings (or w/e) out of my pump cause they looked like they were the hardened rings.. the vanes were even slightly wore from said rings.

boostit5.3

iTrader: (3)

this crappy pic shows a little more damage... and heres the pan ill be putting on it saved it off a old 700r4 i had to put a sunshell in.

boostit5.3

iTrader: (3)

the damn converter is buggin me the most... i think its a tci 3k i imagine the cost they would want to cut/clean/reweld would be as much as a new verter -.-

boostit5.3

iTrader: (3)

mrvedit

I don't know the bushing material, but a teflon (impregnated?) bushing is available and easy to press in.

I was referring to the pump slider spring; a slightly stiffer one is available; it is often purple in color. I see you problem reusing the hardened rings. I think Transgo sells a kit with the hardened rings and the high rpm spring for $15 or so.

Assuming you trans has a bigger boost valve (and springs), you would want to transfer that to the new pump. I'm not aware of any variations in the other springs (over pressure and TCC valve) and therefore little reason to transfer those.

I had a TCI 3200 converter and it was very loose on the street. I couldn't believe how much better and tighter my current Yank 3600 is. Or choose a Revmax, FTI, CircleD or PTC; you cannot go wrong with any of those. However any converter shop should be able to clean your existing one; ask around and you may find one nearby.

I would suggest pulling out the 3/4 clutch and carefully examining the Z-Pak for wear or warping. Not a single pro builder that I have spoken to will use that anymore. An 8-friction BW HE setup would be close to a consensus, although some builders prefer thicker steels while other prefer thicker frictions. And a few prefer the Raybestos GPZ frictions, which Raybestos describes as the Z-Pak friction material applied to a sturdier base.

Not sure why you had a picture of your reverse drum disassembled, although the entire trans probably should be disassembled and cleaned.

boostit5.3

iTrader: (3)

gotcha... ill check the zpack again i only checked like half of them and i had to quit working on it. i was reading somewhere people like to use the 700r4 steels because they are .080 not quite as thin as the steels used with the 9 friction setup... mabye thats what your talking about with the 8 friction setup?? and are the raybestos gpz frictions blue? think i read something about them too. and yeah i was just checking out clutches cause of the condition of the fluid.

there was a couple other screens i ran into and at most they only had a few pieces of aluminum none of them were clogged.. so i dont think much got inside the trans, but think it would be wise to put one of those magnetic filters in the return line when it goes back together?? (i know aluminum isnt magnetic but most of the inline filters im finding are magnetic)

boostit5.3

iTrader: (3)

forgot i snapped this one... this is that half of the zpak i was talking about

mrvedit

I am working on a very comprehensive post documenting various 3-4 clutch builds with a spreadsheet for calculating clearances. Here is one combo:
.215 Apply Plate
8x .066 Friction
7x .078 Steel
.157 Backing Plate
.093 Snap Ring

It gives about .036 dry (.028 wet) clearance. This is using .078 (or .080) steels which are thicker than the .066 frictions.

No, GPZ are brown frictions. Raybestos also makes the Blue frictions, but they should have more clearance.

boostit5.3

iTrader: (3)

so this would be ideal... i may not be able to upgrade to this now but i would like to one day because i have read mixed reviews about the zpak seems they were popular a few years back. http://www.ctpowertrain.com/servlet/...E-4L65E/Detail

mrvedit

Those Z-Pak frictions look pretty good, but obviously your call.
And you obviously know this transmission stuff very well too.

boostit5.3

iTrader: (3)

well maybe not ideal.. but better. the bw setup seems a little cheaper wonder which one bites harder, i would like to turbo this 5.3 one day http://www.ebay.com/itm/700R4-4L60E-Borg-Warner-3-4-Clutch-Maxpack-Kit-with-High-Energy-Carbon-Frictions-/350780206981?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item51ac212f85&vxp=mtr

boostit5.3

iTrader: (3)

that might suprise you, im just very mechically inclined... a couple years ago i bought a 88 4x4 chevy pickup with a 350 motor and posi for 500 bux, it had no reverse 2nd or 4th. i traded a nitrous kit for another trans for it and it ended up being a dud (even though it was a gm rebuild and fluid looked great) i think the pump went out on it long story short i ripped it apart stole its sunshell and put it in the original 200k+ mile tranny along with a stage 1 b&m shift kit and gave it a shot. trans worked flawlessly afterwards so when my 4l60 wanted to take a dump i didnt hesitate to open it up lol. only 3 auto trannys i've opened up

boostit5.3

iTrader: (3)

and thanks for all the input!

mrvedit

Yes, that looks like a nice set of Blue frictions and steels. Price is a bit high, but not too bad.

"Ideal" is probably using the Sonnax Smart-Tech drum with Blue frictions. See my posts #4 and #5:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic...ing-4l60e.html

boostit5.3

iTrader: (3)

well i've ordered another pump, should be here any day now. i called a local trans shop about rebuilding my converter and the guy said he could cut it open and clean it out the right way, put in new bearings re-line the lock up clutch for around 200 bux depending on what it needs. he seemed fairly certain once i said 4l60e that the material in the pan is prolly from the torque converter (which makes since cause all the clutches in the transmission look good).

mrvedit

Good to hear that you are making progress

lt1pwr1

iTrader: (1)

For what it's worth, my 4L60E in my truck has the Z-Pak 3/4 clutches. I have 45K on the trans and do alot of towing with it - NO problems yet. I've heard mixed reviews on them but so far I'm happy.