My rebuild plan & using shift kit with torque management?
05-03-2015, 07:23 PM
#1
Launching!
Thread Starter
My rebuild plan & using shift kit with torque management? I'm about to get a transmission rebuild that had the 3/4 clutches go out at about 75K miles.
I talked to the shop a bit and it sounds like they already use some upgraded parts, like a Beast Sunshell.
I'd mentioned the 5 gear planetaries, but they didn't seem convinced it was worthwhile outside a truck doing towing and could add it's own problems. See mixed opinions here about cooling/high rpm.
I know what I want most of all is a 7 friction 3/4 pack, probably Borg Warner Hi-Energy. Saw a Borg Warner dual-cage Forward Sprag is also recommended.
Probably just have them use a 4l65e rebuild kit?
Last real question is on a shift kit ... I know they install a transgo one, likely the SK 4L60e. I'd mentioned the HD2 and they didn't seem to excited. Maybe warranty concerns? I don't think I want to take off torque management and do anything to shorten it's life. It sounds like the 98-99 system isn't as bad as later models, but the kit description says torque management may limit it. Does it basically make it worthless over the SK kit? I think I'd also want to leave the gear command off.
I have a 3600 stall torque converter and I'd always planned to put in a shift kit but never got around to it. A lot of people suggest a kit with a high stall, I can't say I'd had an issue with the shifting over the years, but maybe ignorance is bliss.
In short will a 98 car with torque management left on and a 3600 stall converter get any benefit and from an HD2 kit over the SK one? Am I missing anything obvious in the rebuild parts?
I talked to the shop a bit and it sounds like they already use some upgraded parts, like a Beast Sunshell.
I'd mentioned the 5 gear planetaries, but they didn't seem convinced it was worthwhile outside a truck doing towing and could add it's own problems. See mixed opinions here about cooling/high rpm.
I know what I want most of all is a 7 friction 3/4 pack, probably Borg Warner Hi-Energy. Saw a Borg Warner dual-cage Forward Sprag is also recommended.
Probably just have them use a 4l65e rebuild kit?
Last real question is on a shift kit ... I know they install a transgo one, likely the SK 4L60e. I'd mentioned the HD2 and they didn't seem to excited. Maybe warranty concerns? I don't think I want to take off torque management and do anything to shorten it's life. It sounds like the 98-99 system isn't as bad as later models, but the kit description says torque management may limit it. Does it basically make it worthless over the SK kit? I think I'd also want to leave the gear command off.
I have a 3600 stall torque converter and I'd always planned to put in a shift kit but never got around to it. A lot of people suggest a kit with a high stall, I can't say I'd had an issue with the shifting over the years, but maybe ignorance is bliss.
In short will a 98 car with torque management left on and a 3600 stall converter get any benefit and from an HD2 kit over the SK one? Am I missing anything obvious in the rebuild parts?
05-04-2015, 09:51 AM
#2
Moderator
A 7 friction 3/4 clutch is the correct choice; a 4l65E rebuild kit probably won't include the better BW HE frictions, but the steels will be fine. A new BW forward sprag is a good choice too.
The Sonnax Smart Shell is a better choice than the Beast sunshell. Note that the high-end trans from the sponsors all use the Sonnax sunshell. One advantage is that it eliminates the high load on the small inner bearing of the rear planet.
I agree that the 5-pinion planetaries are overkill.
I would still ask for the Transgo HD2 kit with the understanding they would only install the valve body, servo and pump parts, not the input drum springs, nor the orifices. At most one washer in the 1-2 accumulator.
Torque management is a tough call as it certainly extends the life of the trans. Perhaps others will give you their opinion and then you can decide. It can also be reduced instead of completely disabled.
The Sonnax Smart Shell is a better choice than the Beast sunshell. Note that the high-end trans from the sponsors all use the Sonnax sunshell. One advantage is that it eliminates the high load on the small inner bearing of the rear planet.
I agree that the 5-pinion planetaries are overkill.
I would still ask for the Transgo HD2 kit with the understanding they would only install the valve body, servo and pump parts, not the input drum springs, nor the orifices. At most one washer in the 1-2 accumulator.
Torque management is a tough call as it certainly extends the life of the trans. Perhaps others will give you their opinion and then you can decide. It can also be reduced instead of completely disabled.
05-05-2015, 02:08 PM
#3
Launching!
Thread Starter
To follow up I talked to them again - they didn't really seem interested in installing OEM 4l65e parts, said they weren't really needed.
They do use the beast sunshell, seemed to be his preference, and the bw forward sprag. It sounds like they actually use the Transgo Jr kit - he'd install the HD2, but set it up more like the Jr without washers.
Also said he does all his 3-4 clutch packs with Raybestos frictions, a single sided setup that is equivalent to 8 frictions. Seems better? Will have to look into that
They do use the beast sunshell, seemed to be his preference, and the bw forward sprag. It sounds like they actually use the Transgo Jr kit - he'd install the HD2, but set it up more like the Jr without washers.
Also said he does all his 3-4 clutch packs with Raybestos frictions, a single sided setup that is equivalent to 8 frictions. Seems better? Will have to look into that
05-05-2015, 05:22 PM
#4
Moderator
Sorry, but this sounds like "state of the art" 10+ years ago. If they want to use the Raybestos Z-Pak, I would go elsewhere; not a single sponsor or pro builder on this forum (that I know of) still uses the Z-Pak and few still use The Beast.
Since you are in WI, why not contact sponsor FLT just outside Chicago. Their Level-3 for $1595 will be completely up-to-date. Note that everything I suggested, and a custom shift kit, is included in that.
http://www.finishlinetrans.com/trans...rmance4L60.htm
Since you are in WI, why not contact sponsor FLT just outside Chicago. Their Level-3 for $1595 will be completely up-to-date. Note that everything I suggested, and a custom shift kit, is included in that.
http://www.finishlinetrans.com/trans...rmance4L60.htm
Last edited by mrvedit; 05-07-2015 at 10:32 AM. Reason: Updated info after correspondence with FLT.
05-05-2015, 05:39 PM
#5
TECH Addict
I would run as fast as I could from the shop you are talking to. $1595 for a FLT Level-3 trans is a heck of a deal for the upgraded parts they use and I am willing to bet a much better warranty also.
05-05-2015, 06:16 PM
#6
Launching!
Thread Starter
That's a bit concerning ... unfortunately they're closed, I'll have to check in the morning, already had an appointment set up for Thursday.
Will see if they'll still do what I'd originally planned... 7 friction Borg Warner Hi-Energy.
I don't see a lot on the Z-Pak, some older stuff. Is it a matter of not as good as promised or flawed design?
I don't have a lot of options around here - not sure it's practical or I'd have the funds to go with a 3rd party transmission
Will see if they'll still do what I'd originally planned... 7 friction Borg Warner Hi-Energy.
I don't see a lot on the Z-Pak, some older stuff. Is it a matter of not as good as promised or flawed design?
I don't have a lot of options around here - not sure it's practical or I'd have the funds to go with a 3rd party transmission
05-09-2015, 01:09 AM
#7
I love my Beast shell and Z-pack, as well as my Kevlar band, but personal preferences aside, I'm all for torque management.
If you've been in some serious high horsepower cars like I have you realize they stay alive due to managing torque. Hellcats, GTRs, Lambos and Ferraris don't chirp tires during shifts. They briefly mitigate the engine torque while allowing the transmission to couple the next gear. The end result is a seamless power transfer while avoiding damaging heat and shock loads that break parts and upset the car.
Is it slower than a full hydraulic power shift? Yes, but by only a few hundredths of a second, as you're not piling that kinetic energy into your frictions and spinning tires.
I've been playing with it on my car, and with it enabled timing is cut briefly during my shifts. It adds a really cool bark to the exhaust. As a benefit, when I'm accelerating in the rain or through a turn I no longer fear the rear end getting loose when the trans snags second gear. If I want to show boat, (chirp tires and stuff) I have a switch wired in for performance mode, and in that mode I have my torque management turned off and line pressure turned up for chirps all the way down to 20% throttle. I really like the Jekyll and Hyde aspect of it. I played with both modes at the strip and neither one was quicker than the other.
Once I get my pressure gauge wired in I'm going to explore the line pressure adaptive portions and see if I can plot out the interplay between torque management, shift timings, pressures and such for a butter smooth trans that can protect itself in case of slip yet hang on to some power.
If you've been in some serious high horsepower cars like I have you realize they stay alive due to managing torque. Hellcats, GTRs, Lambos and Ferraris don't chirp tires during shifts. They briefly mitigate the engine torque while allowing the transmission to couple the next gear. The end result is a seamless power transfer while avoiding damaging heat and shock loads that break parts and upset the car.
Is it slower than a full hydraulic power shift? Yes, but by only a few hundredths of a second, as you're not piling that kinetic energy into your frictions and spinning tires.
I've been playing with it on my car, and with it enabled timing is cut briefly during my shifts. It adds a really cool bark to the exhaust. As a benefit, when I'm accelerating in the rain or through a turn I no longer fear the rear end getting loose when the trans snags second gear. If I want to show boat, (chirp tires and stuff) I have a switch wired in for performance mode, and in that mode I have my torque management turned off and line pressure turned up for chirps all the way down to 20% throttle. I really like the Jekyll and Hyde aspect of it. I played with both modes at the strip and neither one was quicker than the other.
Once I get my pressure gauge wired in I'm going to explore the line pressure adaptive portions and see if I can plot out the interplay between torque management, shift timings, pressures and such for a butter smooth trans that can protect itself in case of slip yet hang on to some power.