I'm about to be on my 9th 4l60e rebuild
07-20-2015, 09:51 PM
#1
I'm about to be on my 9th 4l60e rebuild Hope you like horror stories....
So around 170k miles on a stock engine my trans went. Flare shifting
1. Stock rebuild from a local guy - lasted a month Flare shifting
2. Stock rebuild from same guy - lasted a month Flare shifting
3. Shift kit, trans cooler, and rebuild from same guy - 3 weeks - Broken sprag
Car now has bolt ons... exhaust, Cai, and gears
4. Replaced sprag and rebuilt from same guy - 5 weeks - Broken sprag
5. Vacuum modulator kit, new servo, new sprag, new bands from the same guy - 2 weeks Flare shifting
All of those were pretty much cost of parts so I kept going to him till the 4th one went.
6. New transmission shop - Everything back to stock to get a baseline - 2 months - flare shifting
7. Same trans shop - vacuum modulator kit stock rebuild - broken sprag in 3 weeks
8. Same shop (at this point hes adding aftermarket stuff and refusing to charge me) - New everything, case and all, Borg Warner "dual cage" 29 element sprag, RED LINED Alto "wide" band, Fairbanks billet 2nd servo and Sonnax "dual piston" 4th servo, Raybestos "Z-Pack", modded trans go kit. (probably forgetting things) -
about 1k on this trans I add all mods in Sig.
lasts 7k and 3 years.
So this gets me to today. Car wont shift to second at WOT
Was driving and romped on it. Pulled great, but towards the top end it felt like it stopped pulling, but kept revving up almost like the wheels were spinning. At first I didnt think anything of it because i have drag radials that are pretty worn. But, then i realized that it stayed in a completely strait line while i thought it was "spinning the tires".
So I pulled over, checked the fluid. Amount was right on the money. Got back in and launched it again from first and towards the top end it felt like it was either spinning or almost in neutral and banged the rev limiter 6 times (normally it may hit it once and shifts). I let out and it promptly shifted.
At 80 percent throttle it shifts fine. Holding it steady at 4500 rpm and shifting to second manually it shifts firm and fine as well. No flair shifting and no check engine light.
WHY DO THESE KEEP BREAKING! I called the trans guy and he told me to bring it in and he's going to do what he can for the price of parts. He tells me that there is something going on with the line pressure and he is having a hard time dialing it in. Does anyone have some advice?
So around 170k miles on a stock engine my trans went. Flare shifting
1. Stock rebuild from a local guy - lasted a month Flare shifting
2. Stock rebuild from same guy - lasted a month Flare shifting
3. Shift kit, trans cooler, and rebuild from same guy - 3 weeks - Broken sprag
Car now has bolt ons... exhaust, Cai, and gears
4. Replaced sprag and rebuilt from same guy - 5 weeks - Broken sprag
5. Vacuum modulator kit, new servo, new sprag, new bands from the same guy - 2 weeks Flare shifting
All of those were pretty much cost of parts so I kept going to him till the 4th one went.
6. New transmission shop - Everything back to stock to get a baseline - 2 months - flare shifting
7. Same trans shop - vacuum modulator kit stock rebuild - broken sprag in 3 weeks
8. Same shop (at this point hes adding aftermarket stuff and refusing to charge me) - New everything, case and all, Borg Warner "dual cage" 29 element sprag, RED LINED Alto "wide" band, Fairbanks billet 2nd servo and Sonnax "dual piston" 4th servo, Raybestos "Z-Pack", modded trans go kit. (probably forgetting things) -
about 1k on this trans I add all mods in Sig.
lasts 7k and 3 years.
So this gets me to today. Car wont shift to second at WOT
Was driving and romped on it. Pulled great, but towards the top end it felt like it stopped pulling, but kept revving up almost like the wheels were spinning. At first I didnt think anything of it because i have drag radials that are pretty worn. But, then i realized that it stayed in a completely strait line while i thought it was "spinning the tires".
So I pulled over, checked the fluid. Amount was right on the money. Got back in and launched it again from first and towards the top end it felt like it was either spinning or almost in neutral and banged the rev limiter 6 times (normally it may hit it once and shifts). I let out and it promptly shifted.
At 80 percent throttle it shifts fine. Holding it steady at 4500 rpm and shifting to second manually it shifts firm and fine as well. No flair shifting and no check engine light.
WHY DO THESE KEEP BREAKING! I called the trans guy and he told me to bring it in and he's going to do what he can for the price of parts. He tells me that there is something going on with the line pressure and he is having a hard time dialing it in. Does anyone have some advice?
Last edited by Critt3r; 07-20-2015 at 10:05 PM. Reason: Added engine mods
07-21-2015, 09:56 AM
#7
I had the guy at madtuner.com tune the PCM after trans rebuild 8. I would assume that the tune from the factory would have kept if from eating them on the previous 7.
What doesn't make sense to me is why did the first trans last so long, then everyone after break so quick?
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07-21-2015, 10:00 AM
#8
There are people on here with more HP than me running a 4l60e, I don't want to do a 2500.00 conversion. I was just hoping there was some type of secret to get these things going right without a conversion, or sending it to one of 3 different trans shops (that is capable) in the US.
07-21-2015, 01:17 PM
#12
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WHY DO THESE KEEP BREAKING!
because most guys are ******** , i ran into this issue with my 700r4 in my 85 , i went to two different shops and countless rebuilds.
If i were you i would do 1 of two things , put a 4l80e in , or buy a 4l60 from a vendor on here thats reputable .
because most guys are ******** , i ran into this issue with my 700r4 in my 85 , i went to two different shops and countless rebuilds.
If i were you i would do 1 of two things , put a 4l80e in , or buy a 4l60 from a vendor on here thats reputable .
07-21-2015, 04:23 PM
#13
TECH Addict
I’ll address the sprag issue first. If the trans is shifting really hard the sprag will not last very long. If your trans has a TransGo HD-2-C shift kit installed, install one shim/washer or none at all in the 1-2 accumulator. A very hard 1-2 shift will destroy the sprag. Installing a Sonnax HD 2-3 Shift Valve will take a lot of the load off of the sprag. The HD 2-3 Shift Valve will apply the overrun clutches in 1st, 2nd and 3rd gears when the shifter is in the D/3 position. Whenever you are driving it hard be sure to have the shifter in the D/3 position.
You will need to hook a trans pressure gauge to the trans to check the line pressure. A trans with low line pressure will not live very long. It is always a good idea to check the line pressure after installing a freshly built trans to make sure there are no problems with the hydraulic circuits. It is also good to check the line pressure before removing a trans for rebuild. With an aftermarket boost valve the high pressure should be around 220 psi or so and low pressures should around 90 psi. if not the trans will not live very long.
Whoever is building your trans should air test the hydraulic circuits when assembling the trans to ensure there are no leaks in the hydraulic circuits. The 4L60E trans tends to leak were the input shaft presses into the drum, at the 3rd accumulator capsule and between the boost valve sleeve and pump cover. A Sonnax .490 O-Ring Boost Valve is very good at stopping the leak at the boost valve sleeve and pump cover.
Attached are some instructions from a Sonnax Sure Cure® Kit that has some very good info that can be used even if you’re not installing their kit. The last few pages show you what parts to test for leaks and how to air test them.
You will need to hook a trans pressure gauge to the trans to check the line pressure. A trans with low line pressure will not live very long. It is always a good idea to check the line pressure after installing a freshly built trans to make sure there are no problems with the hydraulic circuits. It is also good to check the line pressure before removing a trans for rebuild. With an aftermarket boost valve the high pressure should be around 220 psi or so and low pressures should around 90 psi. if not the trans will not live very long.
Whoever is building your trans should air test the hydraulic circuits when assembling the trans to ensure there are no leaks in the hydraulic circuits. The 4L60E trans tends to leak were the input shaft presses into the drum, at the 3rd accumulator capsule and between the boost valve sleeve and pump cover. A Sonnax .490 O-Ring Boost Valve is very good at stopping the leak at the boost valve sleeve and pump cover.
Attached are some instructions from a Sonnax Sure Cure® Kit that has some very good info that can be used even if you’re not installing their kit. The last few pages show you what parts to test for leaks and how to air test them.
07-21-2015, 09:47 PM
#14
Dude you've got pretty much my same experience. Stock trans was a beast, put up with all kinds of abuse with a 400 rwhp car revving to 7k until the 2-4 band wore out. Had a local trans shop do a performance rebuild with all the best aftermarket parts, but every month it would lose either the 3-4 clutches or the sprag, until it completely grenaded one day and locked up. Currently putting a 4L80 in the car which is what I should have done to begin with instead of spending ~$2,600 on a built 4L60 that ended up going to the junkyard as a core for the 80. Ugh so much money wasted.
07-22-2015, 09:49 AM
#18
I’ll address the sprag issue first. If the trans is shifting really hard the sprag will not last very long. If your trans has a TransGo HD-2-C shift kit installed, install one shim/washer or none at all in the 1-2 accumulator. A very hard 1-2 shift will destroy the sprag. Installing a Sonnax HD 2-3 Shift Valve will take a lot of the load off of the sprag. The HD 2-3 Shift Valve will apply the overrun clutches in 1st, 2nd and 3rd gears when the shifter is in the D/3 position. Whenever you are driving it hard be sure to have the shifter in the D/3 position.
You will need to hook a trans pressure gauge to the trans to check the line pressure. A trans with low line pressure will not live very long. It is always a good idea to check the line pressure after installing a freshly built trans to make sure there are no problems with the hydraulic circuits. It is also good to check the line pressure before removing a trans for rebuild. With an aftermarket boost valve the high pressure should be around 220 psi or so and low pressures should around 90 psi. if not the trans will not live very long.
Whoever is building your trans should air test the hydraulic circuits when assembling the trans to ensure there are no leaks in the hydraulic circuits. The 4L60E trans tends to leak were the input shaft presses into the drum, at the 3rd accumulator capsule and between the boost valve sleeve and pump cover. A Sonnax .490 O-Ring Boost Valve is very good at stopping the leak at the boost valve sleeve and pump cover.
Attached are some instructions from a Sonnax Sure Cure® Kit that has some very good info that can be used even if you’re not installing their kit. The last few pages show you what parts to test for leaks and how to air test them.
You will need to hook a trans pressure gauge to the trans to check the line pressure. A trans with low line pressure will not live very long. It is always a good idea to check the line pressure after installing a freshly built trans to make sure there are no problems with the hydraulic circuits. It is also good to check the line pressure before removing a trans for rebuild. With an aftermarket boost valve the high pressure should be around 220 psi or so and low pressures should around 90 psi. if not the trans will not live very long.
Whoever is building your trans should air test the hydraulic circuits when assembling the trans to ensure there are no leaks in the hydraulic circuits. The 4L60E trans tends to leak were the input shaft presses into the drum, at the 3rd accumulator capsule and between the boost valve sleeve and pump cover. A Sonnax .490 O-Ring Boost Valve is very good at stopping the leak at the boost valve sleeve and pump cover.
Attached are some instructions from a Sonnax Sure Cure® Kit that has some very good info that can be used even if you’re not installing their kit. The last few pages show you what parts to test for leaks and how to air test them.
How long has your 4l60e been running with this set up?
07-22-2015, 12:49 PM
#19
TECH Addict
My trans was either breaking the sprag or burning up the 3-4 clutches every 2 months until I installed Sonnax .490 O-Ring Boost Valve which fix the hydraulic at the boost valve, ( had a TransGo .500 boost valve before the Sonnax ). I also installed the Sonnax HD 2-3 Shift Valve and only 1 shim/washer in the 1-2 accumulator. I also had a small leak where the input shaft presses into the drum and at the 3rd accumulator capsule. Using the Sonnax Sure Cure® Kit instructions helped me find all of the internal hydraulic leaks. My trans has been working great now for a little over a year.
Last edited by bbond105; 07-23-2015 at 09:10 AM.
07-22-2015, 05:21 PM
#20
Moderator
As Mr Bond explains, the 4L60E is prone to small leaks in the 3/4 clutch circuit which leads to quick failure of the already-marginal design.
Many most builders don't replace the 3rd accumulator capsule and don't even know to look for a leak where the input shaft enters the input drum.
Then they tighten up the 1-2 shift too much, because the customer (mistakenly) thinks firmer is better (or faster) which it is not.
Besides the solutions (and best practices) Mr Bond mentions, I would add the Sonnax input drum reinforcement ring which might even seal up small existing leaks, and keeps the input shaft from loosening up in the drum.
Going back to the OP, I simply think the band has worn out. Installing a new reverse drum and wide band can help in this area.
A worn band is easy to confirm by measuring the end play of the servo by pressing on the cover (e.g. with a crowbar). .075 to .125 (1/16 to 1/8) is spec, and by .175 the band often is starting to slip under WOT.
Starting with a good core, a good rebuild can easily cost $1000+ in parts, including a new input drum, Sonnax Smart Shell, rebuilt valve body, new reverse drum, the other mentioned Sonnax parts, the Sonnax or Transgo shift kit, premium 3/4 clutch and band, and upgrading to 5-pinion planets.
Granted, 5-pinions planets are not needed, but if the trans previously had a catastrophic failure creating metal particles, replacing the planets is good idea. (As mentioned elsewhere, sponsor FLT replaces the planets if there is any evidence of metal particles.)
So, the local/ebay rebuilds that cost under $1200 are really only suitable for stock engines with stock tunes (e.g. torque management) driven on the street.
A really well built 4L60E with billet parts can easily cost $4000+.
Unless you have a C5, a vehicle with very tight dimensions, or don't care about the price, a 4L80E is often the better and cheaper choice. In most cases even a modestly built 4L80E will outlast the very best 4L60E.
Many most builders don't replace the 3rd accumulator capsule and don't even know to look for a leak where the input shaft enters the input drum.
Then they tighten up the 1-2 shift too much, because the customer (mistakenly) thinks firmer is better (or faster) which it is not.
Besides the solutions (and best practices) Mr Bond mentions, I would add the Sonnax input drum reinforcement ring which might even seal up small existing leaks, and keeps the input shaft from loosening up in the drum.
Going back to the OP, I simply think the band has worn out. Installing a new reverse drum and wide band can help in this area.
A worn band is easy to confirm by measuring the end play of the servo by pressing on the cover (e.g. with a crowbar). .075 to .125 (1/16 to 1/8) is spec, and by .175 the band often is starting to slip under WOT.
Starting with a good core, a good rebuild can easily cost $1000+ in parts, including a new input drum, Sonnax Smart Shell, rebuilt valve body, new reverse drum, the other mentioned Sonnax parts, the Sonnax or Transgo shift kit, premium 3/4 clutch and band, and upgrading to 5-pinion planets.
Granted, 5-pinions planets are not needed, but if the trans previously had a catastrophic failure creating metal particles, replacing the planets is good idea. (As mentioned elsewhere, sponsor FLT replaces the planets if there is any evidence of metal particles.)
So, the local/ebay rebuilds that cost under $1200 are really only suitable for stock engines with stock tunes (e.g. torque management) driven on the street.
A really well built 4L60E with billet parts can easily cost $4000+.
Unless you have a C5, a vehicle with very tight dimensions, or don't care about the price, a 4L80E is often the better and cheaper choice. In most cases even a modestly built 4L80E will outlast the very best 4L60E.