Fuddle or TCI whats the difference?
11-07-2005, 12:18 AM
#2
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Not sure exactly, but I have helped swap out a few TCI 3500's for Fuddles recently. I am sure they are not the exact same stall & str etc, but... When I remove the TCI I see the mount pad welds are shitty, like a large glob of welding on them and they use a perimeter ring. Fuddle has nicely welded on feet and no ring. TCI is black, Fuddle is blue. John at Fuddle is one of the most attentive sponsors I have dealt with, that means a lot when your "importing" parts to Hawaii, shipping, returns, warranties, and overall customer service and care are very important. I have called TCI on my recent conversion and went from tech to tech, not pleasant. Also, recently blown, or I believe I have blown, a Fuddle Performance TC on a friends STS car. Called John, no problem, I ship it back and warranty is in full effect...will TCI honor their warranty for the same term and different owner?
My opinion is based off my personal experience of course, and other than stock, I have had Yank in my car previously. It was an excellent converter for a lil 3000stall. But when upgrade time was here, I went to Fuddle and have been very impressed with them. GL
Charlie
My opinion is based off my personal experience of course, and other than stock, I have had Yank in my car previously. It was an excellent converter for a lil 3000stall. But when upgrade time was here, I went to Fuddle and have been very impressed with them. GL
Charlie
11-07-2005, 07:35 AM
#3
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I'll rebut cat3's review with one for TCI. While I have heard great things about John with Fuddle recently, Kevin Winsteads reputation on this board is long standing and impressive. If you do a search you'll see that TCI has been a long time favorite bang for the buck converter with great customer support.
I recently installed a TCI 3500. Prior to the converter I was running 13.4 @ 105 and after the converter and nittos I was running 13.3 @ 101. Obviously something was wrong. I called Kevin @ TCI and talked to him about it. Now the converter I installed had been sitting for over a year (new in the box). Legally, Kevin owed me nothing. But he agreed to send me a brand new TCI 3500 torque converter nearly free of charge (I just had to pay shipping). But he warned me to look at my engine before I took the converter out. See the converter was acting normal since I was flashing to 3500, shift extending to 4800 and locking up right at 40 mph.
Well after new plugs, wires and a dynotune I was found to be running dangerously lean and the engine was pulling timing. After the tune my car ran like a champ. 12.8 @ 109 spinning all the way through first gear. I never had to take up Kevin on his free torque converter swap but it made me feel real good that over a year later he was willing to do that for me. IMO that's some excellent customer service.
I don't think you can go wrong with either company. My honest advice is look for which one you can get cheaper either through a group purchase or a sponsors sale.
I recently installed a TCI 3500. Prior to the converter I was running 13.4 @ 105 and after the converter and nittos I was running 13.3 @ 101. Obviously something was wrong. I called Kevin @ TCI and talked to him about it. Now the converter I installed had been sitting for over a year (new in the box). Legally, Kevin owed me nothing. But he agreed to send me a brand new TCI 3500 torque converter nearly free of charge (I just had to pay shipping). But he warned me to look at my engine before I took the converter out. See the converter was acting normal since I was flashing to 3500, shift extending to 4800 and locking up right at 40 mph.
Well after new plugs, wires and a dynotune I was found to be running dangerously lean and the engine was pulling timing. After the tune my car ran like a champ. 12.8 @ 109 spinning all the way through first gear. I never had to take up Kevin on his free torque converter swap but it made me feel real good that over a year later he was willing to do that for me. IMO that's some excellent customer service.
I don't think you can go wrong with either company. My honest advice is look for which one you can get cheaper either through a group purchase or a sponsors sale.
11-08-2005, 04:29 PM
#5
Thanks for the replies.
As far as customer service goes I wonder if fuddle has a good reputation because they only take orders for converters and check on the builder who builds theirs.
While on the other hand TCI has a huge line of products to provide customer service for.
As far as customer service goes I wonder if fuddle has a good reputation because they only take orders for converters and check on the builder who builds theirs.
While on the other hand TCI has a huge line of products to provide customer service for.
11-08-2005, 05:32 PM
#6
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I've not had any trouble out of my TCI except for
the weak clutch, and I suspect that's at least partly
my own fault, though I've been seeing others complain
and people in the know say the clutch is from a 4-cyl
of some sort. Not that much you can do inside a 10"
shell I guess, other than more discs and more pressure.
I got a custom Fuddle regular and never did install it,
I traded up for the "Street Performance" one specifically
on account of the improved clutch and got it last week.
May go in next week or so.
The main thing about Fuddle is, if you want some specific
combo you can have it. TCI has about 4 stock models (?)
and as they go up in stall they go way up in STR and
down in efficiency (some of the slip logs I've seen look
sub-95% peak on the 3800). As before I ordered a 3500ish,
<2.0 STR optimized for efficiency. This time it came back
3450/1.98 design values. Since 3000/2.2 only boils the
tires I figured this might be a better bet for me, I need
it down-track more than off the line with street rubber.
I'll be interested to see how the Fuddle clutch acts, with
the tune I've come around to for getting the TCI to hold
at low pedal cruise. I'm hoping I can back off on the
force motor "early line" some.
I haven't had occasion to test out either's warranty and
prefer it that way....
the weak clutch, and I suspect that's at least partly
my own fault, though I've been seeing others complain
and people in the know say the clutch is from a 4-cyl
of some sort. Not that much you can do inside a 10"
shell I guess, other than more discs and more pressure.
I got a custom Fuddle regular and never did install it,
I traded up for the "Street Performance" one specifically
on account of the improved clutch and got it last week.
May go in next week or so.
The main thing about Fuddle is, if you want some specific
combo you can have it. TCI has about 4 stock models (?)
and as they go up in stall they go way up in STR and
down in efficiency (some of the slip logs I've seen look
sub-95% peak on the 3800). As before I ordered a 3500ish,
<2.0 STR optimized for efficiency. This time it came back
3450/1.98 design values. Since 3000/2.2 only boils the
tires I figured this might be a better bet for me, I need
it down-track more than off the line with street rubber.
I'll be interested to see how the Fuddle clutch acts, with
the tune I've come around to for getting the TCI to hold
at low pedal cruise. I'm hoping I can back off on the
force motor "early line" some.
I haven't had occasion to test out either's warranty and
prefer it that way....
11-08-2005, 11:06 PM
#7
I just picked up a TCI Street Fighter tonight, ironically it's the same one they recommended I get for my car after filling out their online application guide.
As far as clutch material I'd love to just have a new converter cut open by a professional just to see how much material is there.
Just out of curiosity I cut open an old 12" 700R4 converter. The clutch material was only about 1/2" wide, there is enough room to glue a 3/4" wide disc in it's place.
I'd like to see a picture of fuddle, tci or anyone elses friction disc.
And that 10" core I see fuddle and tci use looks just like the ones that come from behind 2.8 liter V6's and 4 cylinders. There are piles of them at the junkyards (wonder where they go).
Of course after brazing the fins and replacing the stator and other stuff it does make for a decent converter.
As far as clutch material I'd love to just have a new converter cut open by a professional just to see how much material is there.
Just out of curiosity I cut open an old 12" 700R4 converter. The clutch material was only about 1/2" wide, there is enough room to glue a 3/4" wide disc in it's place.
I'd like to see a picture of fuddle, tci or anyone elses friction disc.
And that 10" core I see fuddle and tci use looks just like the ones that come from behind 2.8 liter V6's and 4 cylinders. There are piles of them at the junkyards (wonder where they go).
Of course after brazing the fins and replacing the stator and other stuff it does make for a decent converter.
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11-09-2005, 12:08 AM
#8
TECH Fanatic
I purchased a fuddle converter about 2 weeks ago and am very happy with it. I think the selling point for me was speaking with John, who seemed genuinly interested in meeting my needs. After 10 minutes on the phone with him I decided on his 3000 stall with an STR of 2.0 as I run street tires. My 2001 Z is stock except for a lid and magnaflow CB. The converter has made a world of difference. With 2.73 gears there is just a bit of slip, but like everyone says on this site, I was used to it in about 5 minutes. And give er a bit of throttle and you know you spent your $ right. I cant speak for Yank, TCI or anyone else. But I can tell you that fuddle is a great converter.
11-09-2005, 01:45 AM
#9
Let me give you an idea of clutch size. Measure the clutch you have in your stock converter. You will get a measurement of less than 20 sq. in. Also, look at the conical shape of the actual piston. The conical shape under extreme load will have a tendency to bow with the force behind it, causing warping of the clutch. Also, notice the clutch material is a woven carbon; it looks like a picnic basket. That allows slip in the stock unit under lock-up. In all, the clutch/piston in the 300mm unit really isn't that great of a design, and the clutch material, while very durable, leaves much to be desired.
Compare that to our Performance Series Converters. The clutch size is somewhat smaller than the 300mm but still measures over 17 sq. in., so the difference isn't as big as you might be led to believe. The clutch material we use is also the strongest available that can reasonably be used. I say reasonably as in testing, we have seen billet covers taken out by the next step stronger material. The piston shape allows the clutch itself to maintain a better contact patch under load, making that aspect of the clutch much stronger than the 300mm design.
While that explains our Performance Series, keep in mind that we also have our billet cover HP/Street and HP/Race converters. In the HP/Race, while certainly not designed for the road, the clutch size is an amazing 48 sq.in., exactly twice the size of the competition’s race converters I have opened up. The HP/Street clutch is only slightly smaller, just over 43 sq.in. While maintaining the superior shape of the actual piston and increasing clutch size, the weight of the HP/Street is just over 30 lbs. Our HP Series Converters are built to be the best converters on the market.
You’ve been misled. We are able to offer superior customer service because we believe in and stand behind our people and our product.
Compare that to our Performance Series Converters. The clutch size is somewhat smaller than the 300mm but still measures over 17 sq. in., so the difference isn't as big as you might be led to believe. The clutch material we use is also the strongest available that can reasonably be used. I say reasonably as in testing, we have seen billet covers taken out by the next step stronger material. The piston shape allows the clutch itself to maintain a better contact patch under load, making that aspect of the clutch much stronger than the 300mm design.
While that explains our Performance Series, keep in mind that we also have our billet cover HP/Street and HP/Race converters. In the HP/Race, while certainly not designed for the road, the clutch size is an amazing 48 sq.in., exactly twice the size of the competition’s race converters I have opened up. The HP/Street clutch is only slightly smaller, just over 43 sq.in. While maintaining the superior shape of the actual piston and increasing clutch size, the weight of the HP/Street is just over 30 lbs. Our HP Series Converters are built to be the best converters on the market.
As far as customer service goes I wonder if fuddle has a good reputation because they only take orders for converters and check on the builder who builds theirs.
You’ve been misled. We are able to offer superior customer service because we believe in and stand behind our people and our product. Last edited by 1jfuddle; 11-09-2005 at 03:09 AM.
11-09-2005, 06:09 AM
#10
You’ve been misled. We are able to offer superior customer service because we believe in and stand behind our people and our product.
My point on that is, you can believe in your products and stand behind your people and it will show with a small company like yours. But what happens 20 years from now when you offer a complete line of custom built parts to replace every tranmission part for say every GM vehicle, you're going to have a lot more going on, have to hire people to help, people who might not care about their job, etc.
Maybe thats what happened to TCI, they got so big that personal service to the customer disappeared. That and the fact they have so many customers they know if they disappoint a few people (say like a nobody like me) what does it matter, they have others who will come along.
You guys on the other hand have not exploded into this big company that can no longer give personal service to every customer, you're getting big but not too big.
I believe you're doing a good job and I've never done bussiness with you, I'm saying that from what I read, word of mouth (what it was called before the internet) thats what matters and you've got a ton of positive feedback on that. That will get you far more than any amount of advertising.
Thanks for the explaination on the clutch material. And keep up the good work.
PS no one from TCI has spoken up, no other converter builder here has bothered to offer any input (guess because their brand was not mentioned) but you took the time and that once again shows you care.
Last edited by jxaxsxoxn; 11-09-2005 at 06:14 AM.
11-09-2005, 06:19 AM
#11
11 Second Club
In TCI's defense, They will make you a specialty converter if say you wanted a 3000 stall with 2.0 STR or something like that. I spent about a half hour on the phone once with Kevin @ TCI trying to figure out what stall and STR best suited my goals and future mods.
TCI will spend time with you and help you build a converter. They will stand behind thier products. They will restall converters. They will build custom converters if the stall speed / str on the off the shelf models don't suit your needs. And they will be there if there is a problem.
But from what I read, so will Fuddle. It's really not a clear cut choice IMO. I went with TCI because I'm old school and The Colonel was a huge fan of thier products and had alot of success running the ssf3500. You won't make a bad choice either way.
TCI will spend time with you and help you build a converter. They will stand behind thier products. They will restall converters. They will build custom converters if the stall speed / str on the off the shelf models don't suit your needs. And they will be there if there is a problem.
But from what I read, so will Fuddle. It's really not a clear cut choice IMO. I went with TCI because I'm old school and The Colonel was a huge fan of thier products and had alot of success running the ssf3500. You won't make a bad choice either way.
11-09-2005, 09:02 AM
#12
Originally Posted by jxaxsxoxn
Maybe thats what happened to TCI, they got so big that personal service to the customer disappeared ... Thanks for the explaination on the clutch material. And keep up the good work ... no one from TCI has spoken up, no other converter builder here has bothered to offer any input (guess because their brand was not mentioned).
The clutch has been TCI's Achilles' heel, but you will be using the Transgo kit and eliminating PWM, which will give you less chance for problems. So far so good with mine - I am very happy with my TCI converter.
11-09-2005, 10:38 AM
#13
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I'm a TCI owner. I spoke multiple times with Kevin Winstead back at the start of the summer and he was more than helpful. I got a great deal and my converter has been performing excellently after I fixed some tuning problems related to my cam and misfires causing random unlocks (common cam + converter problem, not TCI's fault). I went with TCI because they have been in the industry for a LONG time and have proven their performance and reputation.
I added a baby cam and full exhaust and still picked up 52rwhp on the dyno FROM a TCS 3200 stall which was already sapping some of my power. At the track I ran in much worse weather in the heat of the summer that had me a few mph down on trap speed. Before the TCI the car was trapping steady 103s. After the TCI, in much worse weather, with ONLY 52rwhp more, the car was trapping mid 110s. With colder weather it should be in the 112mph range. Thats a 9mph increase from one converter to another and I went up in stall speed, with only 52rwhp added. I'd say TCI's are plenty efficient.
TCI can hang with the "best of the best" IMO.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...&highlight=tci
*This post is not to take anything away from Fuddle. I think they've more than proven themselves, and if this trans ever goes south and takes the converter with it I'll probably look into a Fuddle as my next converter. Their customer service and track times have proven yet again that you dont have to spend $1000 for a quality converter that will put up the numbers.
I added a baby cam and full exhaust and still picked up 52rwhp on the dyno FROM a TCS 3200 stall which was already sapping some of my power. At the track I ran in much worse weather in the heat of the summer that had me a few mph down on trap speed. Before the TCI the car was trapping steady 103s. After the TCI, in much worse weather, with ONLY 52rwhp more, the car was trapping mid 110s. With colder weather it should be in the 112mph range. Thats a 9mph increase from one converter to another and I went up in stall speed, with only 52rwhp added. I'd say TCI's are plenty efficient.
TCI can hang with the "best of the best" IMO.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...&highlight=tci
*This post is not to take anything away from Fuddle. I think they've more than proven themselves, and if this trans ever goes south and takes the converter with it I'll probably look into a Fuddle as my next converter. Their customer service and track times have proven yet again that you dont have to spend $1000 for a quality converter that will put up the numbers.
11-09-2005, 01:41 PM
#14
Originally Posted by 1jfuddle
Compare that to our Performance Series Converters. The clutch size is somewhat smaller than the 300mm but still measures over 17 sq. in., so the difference isn't as big as you might be led to believe. The clutch material we use is also the strongest available that can reasonably be used.
...In the HP/Race, while certainly not designed for the road, the clutch size is an amazing 48 sq.in., exactly twice the size of the competition’s race converters I have opened up. The HP/Street clutch is only slightly smaller, just over 43 sq.in.
...In the HP/Race, while certainly not designed for the road, the clutch size is an amazing 48 sq.in., exactly twice the size of the competition’s race converters I have opened up. The HP/Street clutch is only slightly smaller, just over 43 sq.in.
11-09-2005, 07:51 PM
#15
No experience with fuddle, but I've heard nothing but good things. I had a tci 3500, and talked with kevin, and got a custom converter from them. It's a 4k stall, 2.5 str, with a differnet stator & impellor to hold n2o better than the normal 4k. So far I've been nothing but impressed with it.
11-09-2005, 10:10 PM
#16
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Fuddle shipped my friend a converter that was poorly welded and leaked EVERYWHERE. They said they would ship a new one out ASAP, it took a week to get here. It should have been overnighted becuase the car was sitting at a shop. Last update that I knew about it is that he sent the converter back 2-3 day mail and Fuddle still hasnt refunded his money. Like I said that was last update though.
11-09-2005, 10:37 PM
#17
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I'll stand behind Fuddle 100%. Check the posts I've made about them because honestly I have too much homework to do right now to be typing out the million good things I'd like to say about them. IMO, they have a better product and better customer service.
11-09-2005, 10:49 PM
#18
ssf3500 here and it runs great i love it but i did need 2 tranny coolers (19000+24000gvw) LOL but now i tranny temps rarely go over 155 even after a few runs!!!! also i guess it was a bit loose and needed a little extra in the tuneing department (thanks again jimmyblue!) but ill tell ya it made a hell of a performance difference compared to a stock ta ill waste them in 1st gear by a few car legnths!! yea the str is a bit much even for 315 nittos but with a little restraint i can launch the car like never before.. hell id bet if i had a set of slicks in back this converter would be perfict for 1.4-1.5 60".... on nittos(15psi hot) ive managed 1.7 with wheel spin and will hopefully see better with pratice
11-10-2005, 10:18 PM
#20
Originally Posted by jxaxsxoxn
I understand that and believe it, don't get me wrong.
My point on that is, you can believe in your products and stand behind your people and it will show with a small company like yours. But what happens 20 years from now when you offer a complete line of custom built parts to replace every tranmission part for say every GM vehicle, you're going to have a lot more going on, have to hire people to help, people who might not care about their job, etc.
Maybe thats what happened to TCI, they got so big that personal service to the customer disappeared. That and the fact they have so many customers they know if they disappoint a few people (say like a nobody like me) what does it matter, they have others who will come along.
You guys on the other hand have not exploded into this big company that can no longer give personal service to every customer, you're getting big but not too big.
I believe you're doing a good job and I've never done bussiness with you, I'm saying that from what I read, word of mouth (what it was called before the internet) thats what matters and you've got a ton of positive feedback on that. That will get you far more than any amount of advertising.
Thanks for the explaination on the clutch material. And keep up the good work.
PS no one from TCI has spoken up, no other converter builder here has bothered to offer any input (guess because their brand was not mentioned) but you took the time and that once again shows you care.
My point on that is, you can believe in your products and stand behind your people and it will show with a small company like yours. But what happens 20 years from now when you offer a complete line of custom built parts to replace every tranmission part for say every GM vehicle, you're going to have a lot more going on, have to hire people to help, people who might not care about their job, etc.
Maybe thats what happened to TCI, they got so big that personal service to the customer disappeared. That and the fact they have so many customers they know if they disappoint a few people (say like a nobody like me) what does it matter, they have others who will come along.
You guys on the other hand have not exploded into this big company that can no longer give personal service to every customer, you're getting big but not too big.
I believe you're doing a good job and I've never done bussiness with you, I'm saying that from what I read, word of mouth (what it was called before the internet) thats what matters and you've got a ton of positive feedback on that. That will get you far more than any amount of advertising.
Thanks for the explaination on the clutch material. And keep up the good work.
PS no one from TCI has spoken up, no other converter builder here has bothered to offer any input (guess because their brand was not mentioned) but you took the time and that once again shows you care.
