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Old 06-03-2009, 12:12 PM   #1
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With the Car magazines giving good reviews on some GM vehicles lately, relative to their Japanese counterparts, this touched home personally. I usually don't pay much attention to magazine reviews since the Automotive companies place ads in those same publications.

A friend of mine came to me after a recent business trip and knowing that I was a former GM Engineer had to tell me his recent experiences with his Malibu rental car. I was waiting to hear him complain as he usually does, and to tell me how happy he is with his last 3 Camry’s he had bought compared to anything American made.

We all know guys like this; He buys almost exclusively Foreign (Toyota), and makes statements about his one GM purchase in his life "a mid 80's Celebrity" as being the reason he will never buy an American car. It is a repeat of a half dozen people I work with, stating they dislike "American cars" because of a 93 Pontiac they had, or an older guy stating his disappointment in a 69 Firebird that turned him off the American vehicles forever. These are all supposable intelligent Aerospace Engineers that deal with logic all day long but can't seem to get over some preconception based on one experience years ago. I can point out my experiences with my trouble free mile on my personal GM vehicles or other coworkers that have great experiences with theirs, but to no avail. They seem to relish in the glory of their BMW, Camry, Honda or other favorite Foreign make as if it made them special. They also seem to have no problems showing disdain for any American car, even though when asked they admit to having no recent personal experience.

Back to My friend's experience with his Malibu. Like I said above; he usually loves to go on with his stories of his fantastic toyota. My mouth about hit the floor when he said his next car purchase would most likely be a Malibu based on the experience with his rental. I’ve been hearing this more often from different people over the last year. Foreign car owners coming back home. Maybe it's coincidental, but let’s hope not.
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Old 06-03-2009, 01:23 PM   #2
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Past experiences shape people's future decisions. It's just normal human psychology. If I went to a restaurant I have never been before and had a bad experience, I most likely would not go back there regardless of the restaurant's **EXCELLENT** reputation....if it had one I'm making the decision based on my experience. Your buddy was happy with the Malibu after having a good experience with it. It's place of manufacture was not important. That is an objective person. We have plenty of people who want others to buy American just because of the fact it's made here, which is stupid. People should buy the product they like best. If GM builds good cars (which they do) and people continue to have GOOD experiences with them, people will buy them. That is how foreign cars like Honda & Toyota gained traction in the U.S. market by making a good product and ensuring it stays that way.
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Old 06-03-2009, 01:27 PM   #3
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past experiences shape people's future decisions. It's just normal human psychology. If i went to a restaurant i have never been before and had a bad experience, i most likely would not go back there regardless of the restaurant's **excellent** reputation....if it had one i'm making the decision based on my experience. Your buddy was happy with the malibu after having a good experience with it. It's place of manufacture was not important. That is an objective person. We have plenty of people who want others to buy american just because of the fact it's made here, which is stupid. People should buy the product they like best. If gm builds good cars (which they do) and people continue to have good experiences with them, people will buy them. That is how foreign cars like honda & toyota gained traction in the u.s. Market by making a good product and ensuring it stays that way.



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Old 06-03-2009, 01:52 PM   #4
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We have plenty of people who want others to buy American just because of the fact it's made here, which is stupid. People should buy the product they like best.
I agree with most of you what you've said, but I wanted to comment on the bit above.

It's not stupid to want your fellow countrymen to buy products that were built in the country you live and work in. Everytime someone buys a product that was made in America it helps our economy, and that's good for all Americans. There's quite a selection of American cars, so it's not like you're forced to buy something you won't enjoy just to buy American.

People can buy what they want, but IMO those who choose to purchase from the large selection of decent American vehicles are people who care just that much more about the future of their country than those that do not. I know that doesn't seem to really matter anymore to most people, especially since our country is going to ****, but I do hope that the words "Made in America" mean something again someday.
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Old 06-03-2009, 01:57 PM   #5
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If past experiences should condemn the current market then why do we use CD/DVDs when Laserdics were huge POSs?!

Things change but people like to hold on to the past.

People are hypocritical and like to bend logic to get the argument in their favor.
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Old 06-03-2009, 05:13 PM   #6
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I agree with most of you what you've said, but I wanted to comment on the bit above.

It's not stupid to want your fellow countrymen to buy products that were built in the country you live and work in. Everytime someone buys a product that was made in America it helps our economy, and that's good for all Americans. There's quite a selection of American cars, so it's not like you're forced to buy something you won't enjoy just to buy American.

People can buy what they want, but IMO those who choose to purchase from the large selection of decent American vehicles are people who care just that much more about the future of their country than those that do not. I know that doesn't seem to really matter anymore to most people, especially since our country is going to ****, but I do hope that the words "Made in America" mean something again someday.

So according to you, if you don't buy something that was made in America you don't love your country as much as someone that purchased a product that was made in the USA.

Please let us know which of these products you have purchased recently which were made in the USA:
TV
Stereo
shoes
pants
shirts
tires
computer
furniture
electronic equipment
tools

If you shop at Walmart you definately hate your country since almost 90% of goods sold there were made in China.
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Old 06-03-2009, 06:01 PM   #7
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We all know guys like this; He buys almost exclusively Foreign (Toyota), and makes statements about his one GM purchase in his life "a mid 80's Celebrity" as being the reason he will never buy an American car. It is a repeat of a half dozen people I work with, stating they dislike "American cars" because of a 93 Pontiac they had, or an older guy stating his disappointment in a 69 Firebird that turned him off the American vehicles forever. These are all supposable intelligent Aerospace Engineers that deal with logic all day long but can't seem to get over some preconception based on one experience years ago. I can point out my experiences with my trouble free mile on my personal GM vehicles or other coworkers that have great experiences with theirs, but to no avail. They seem to relish in the glory of their BMW, Camry, Honda or other favorite Foreign make as if it made them special. They also seem to have no problems showing disdain for any American car, even though when asked they admit to having no recent personal experience.
Yes, I know that type of person quite well. I do understand how they might've gotten to that point in their thinking/logic (or lack therof) but that still doesn't mean that it's truly rational thinking.
If it were than all Toyotas, Hondas and Nissans (among others) would also have to be avoided because there are certainly former owners of those vehicles that had bad experiences as well, especially those quite mediocre imports from the pre-1974 era.





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If past experiences should condemn the current market then why do we use CD/DVDs when Laserdics were huge POSs?!
Things change but people like to hold on to the past.
People are hypocritical and like to bend logic to get the argument in their favor.
Exactly.
Simply not buying a new GM/Ford/Chrysler product today because the one your cousin's neighbor's brother had back 1985 was quite poorly designed/assembled is just as asinine as me telling someone not to buy Toyotas/Hondas/Nissans because they were all rusting, oil burning pieces of sh*t back in 1969. If you're going to ridicule/boycott one brand based on their past transgressions then you've got to ridicule/boycott everyone's.
It goes both ways.
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Old 06-03-2009, 06:42 PM   #8
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So according to you, if you don't buy something that was made in America you don't love your country as much as someone that purchased a product that was made in the USA.

Please let us know which of these products you have purchased recently which were made in the USA:
TV
Stereo
shoes
pants
shirts
tires
computer
furniture
electronic equipment
tools

If you shop at Walmart you definately hate your country since almost 90% of goods sold there were made in China.
You bring up some great points and IMO, you're right.

I can provide no answer nor solution to these dilemmas but I must still pose this question:
If buying all of these imported nameplate products marketed and sold by corporations based in foreign nations is actually perfectly fine, acceptable and not in anyway a detriment to the way of life American citizens have enjoyed for so many years, then why is the nation in possibly the worst recession it's ever known and even potentially on the verge of another Great Depression?
Is it all simply the credit crisis, falsely inflated real estate prices and greed that's to blame?
Or has the HUGE trade imbalances/trade deficits and employment being shipped overseas in the name of competitiveness/captitalism/free enterprise contributed even a little bit to that?

On the flipside to that, the post war 1950s, 1960s and 1970s (not all that long ago) were some of the most rich and prosperous times in U.S. history...and guess what most people (I don't know, maybe 95% of the driver's licensed population) drove during that period?
GM, Ford and Chrysler (you can throw some AMCs, Hudsons and Studebakers in there as well ) brand named vehicles, all designed, marketed, assembled and sold in the good old U.S.A.
And when the husband got home from work (because well, only he had to work, he earned enough so that mom could stay home and make sure that their children weren't smoking crack, burglarizing homes and prostituting themselves LOL) guess what kind of television he watched? RCA, Magnavox, Motorola. His dinner was cooked in a U.S. built West Bend oven after being pulled from his U.S. built General Electric refrigerator.
And if a family wanted to buy a home back then they could, those were prosperous times indeed.
Coincidence?
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Old 06-03-2009, 09:24 PM   #9
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So according to you, if you don't buy something that was made in America you don't love your country as much as someone that purchased a product that was made in the USA.
.
Love is an emotion and the arguement you pose is brought up all of the time as a polarizing statement. It usually results in a pissing match. It is the equivalent of questioning someones patriotism based on buying American products. It gets you nowhere. The reality of the situation is it is bad for American jobs and our economy and is good for the Foreign country that is displacing our jobs.
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Old 06-03-2009, 09:30 PM   #10
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Love is an emotion and the arguement you pose is brought up all of the time as a polarizing statement. It usually results in a pissing match. It is the equivalent of questioning someones patriotism based on buying American products. It gets you nowhere. The reality of the situation is it is bad for American jobs and our economy and is good for the Foreign country.
Ok then,
why don't you fill out that list I made and tell us which products you bought that were American made. Since according to you foreign products are bad for us, you must be buying only American made products.
I await your reply to the product list in my previous post.
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Old 06-03-2009, 09:40 PM   #11
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So according to you, if you don't buy something that was made in America you don't love your country as much as someone that purchased a product that was made in the USA.

Please let us know which of these products you have purchased recently which were made in the USA:
TV
Stereo
shoes
pants
shirts
tires {edit you can get many tires made in usa}
computer {edit lots of design in usa}
furniture
electronic equipment {edit lots of design in usa}
tools {edit lots built in usa actually}

If you shop at Walmart you definately hate your country since almost 90% of goods sold there were made in China.

I don't understand why everyone jumps on this idea where you have to buy 100% American to promote America or just forget it.

Is it too much to admit that it is healthy to buy a certain ratio of stuff from the USA and the rest imported? And perhaps we just superseded this limit it out of interest of materialism??

Why is there this following of anarchists in self denial that utilize this faulty logic because they want want country to sink?


The USA doesn't give me everything I want and a lot of this is cultural but it is a damn good place to live nevertheless. Why does everyone want the good life to be over so soon?????
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Old 06-03-2009, 10:52 PM   #12
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Ok then,
why don't you fill out that list I made and tell us which products you bought that were American made. Since according to you foreign products are bad for us, you must be buying only American made products.
I await your reply to the product list in my previous post.
Because it is a rhetorical question. Why should I bother.
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Old 06-03-2009, 11:57 PM   #13
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Ok then,
why don't you fill out that list I made and tell us which products you bought that were American made. Since according to you foreign products are bad for us, you must be buying only American made products.
I await your reply to the product list in my previous post.
Whoa whoa hold on there...based on what you're proposing/getting at, if a person purchases even just one Japanese/Chinese/Taiwanese manufactured home electronic product/appliance that ALL of their other attempts to 'buy American' are suddenly erased?

Based on that logic (and I use the term logic quite loosely here) if you need to have your fingernail amputated due to infection then it is no different than having your entire arm amputated.
"Mr. Proporio, we need to remove your fingernail in order to save the finger."
"Nah Doc it's ok, just take the whole arm, it's all the same to me."

I own a CD player ($73.00) made in Japan and a shirt ($27.00) made in Pakistan yet that automatically erases the $75,000.00 worth of GM vehicles in my garage? Makes me some sort of hypocrite in your eyes just because I love this great nation and try to get others to put it's interests first and not support ONLY other nation's gross national product 100%?
I have a cell phone made in Taiwan so therefor it's perfectly fine/acceptable for ALL of the products I buy from here on out to be made offshore? I just don't get that line of thinking/justification.
When there is no choice but to buy an imported product then there is no choice, other than doing without entirely (which I have actually done in some instances).
When there still is a choice (at least for now there is) as with say, motor vehicles, that's when it truly matters otherwise that goes away like the mass/domestic produced television has.

Some of this talk would have likely had members of the U.S. Armed Forces and the VFW actually pulling guns on people with accusations of treason not all that long ago.
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Old 06-04-2009, 03:22 AM   #14
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Dear OP,
I too drove a rental Malibu a few weeks ago and was expecting to be floored because of all the media and news about how much better it was supposed to be...and in all honesty I was quite impressed and pleased. If I were in the market for a mid-size family sedan I would opt for the Malibu too! This coming from a person who has a previous generation POS Malibu too!!

As far as to how this thread deviated...Be a patriot and stand for what this country was founded on...freedom of choice. Everybody's has a patriotic right to do and buy what they want.
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Old 06-04-2009, 08:43 AM   #15
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GM did hit a homerun with the Malibu in terms of fit/finish, interior layout etc. unfortunately most folks wonder what took them so long before making a car of this quality?
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Old 06-04-2009, 09:14 AM   #16
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Ok then,
why don't you fill out that list I made and tell us which products you bought that were American made. Since according to you foreign products are bad for us, you must be buying only American made products.
I await your reply to the product list in my previous post.
I can honestly say that just near every product I buy is made in the US or US materials. My boots (100% US) Chippewas (they also maker cheaper ones which are imported), my sneakers (New Balance) which if you look around have several sneakers made in the US with some imported materials, even orange juice, I look for the ones which are 100% US. I can go on, all it takes is a few seconds to read the package. Every product I purchase I read the package to see where it is made. If i'm going to buy boots why should I spend 120 bucks on a pair of Timberlands that were made in China for 2 bucks or a pair of Chips that are 100% US right down to the leather source for the same price? Same comfort and much more durable. Everybody has the right to buy what they please, I try to make a purchase that in some way helps make my life more sustainable, even if its an American company that pays state or fed taxes. With GM closing plants they are closing a foundry here in NY, I now look at it as NY losing income, even if it was only $500,000 a year in taxes, that's gone, that affects me and my sustainability.
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Old 06-04-2009, 10:04 AM   #17
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Dear OP,
I too drove a rental Malibu a few weeks ago and was expecting to be floored because of all the media and news about how much better it was supposed to be...and in all honesty I was quite impressed and pleased. If I were in the market for a mid-size family sedan I would opt for the Malibu too! This coming from a person who has a previous generation POS Malibu too!!

As far as to how this thread deviated...Be a patriot and stand for what this country was founded on...freedom of choice. Everybody's has a patriotic right to do and buy what they want.
Having not driven a new Malibu as of yet, and having driven the previous generation I was very intrigued to hear the opinion of a committed Toyota diehard, and someone like your self who is not as biased as I am. I will admit to my American bias and go outside of myself to hear the opinion of people who should be more objective to keep myself in check.

The only problem I have with freedom of choice when you involve global players is they are not all democracies that value our same way of life. In the case of China, we are supporting their non-democratic way of life by buying their products. Of course, we are in a situation with Chinese produced goods that we no longer have a choice of an American product or a product from anywhere other than China.
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Old 06-04-2009, 10:49 AM   #18
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So according to you, if you don't buy something that was made in America you don't love your country as much as someone that purchased a product that was made in the USA.
I'm saying that buying American is better for America, the country we live in. Can you really argue with that?

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Originally Posted by proporio View Post
Please let us know which of these products you have purchased recently which were made in the USA:
TV
Stereo
shoes
pants
shirts
tires
computer
furniture
electronic equipment
tools

If you shop at Walmart you definately hate your country since almost 90% of goods sold there were made in China.
Ad Hominem?

Nobody said anything about "hating your country"?

I'm not saying I don't ever purchase anything made outside the US, but I would say that someone who takes steps to try to buy American cares more about America than those that don't. This isn't rocket science, really.

Last edited by KeyserWS6; 06-04-2009 at 10:55 AM..
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Old 06-04-2009, 12:39 PM   #19
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So your saying that people that don't buy American, care less about America?
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Old 06-04-2009, 01:28 PM   #20
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I'm saying that buying American is better for America, the country we live in. Can you really argue with that?

I'm not saying I don't ever purchase anything made outside the US, but I would say that someone who takes steps to try to buy American cares more about America than those that don't. This isn't rocket science, really.
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So your saying that people that don't buy American, care less about America?
Obviously, that is what he is saying.

And as far as the list I threw together goes, virtually no electronics are manufactured in the U.S.
and almost no clothing/footware is manufactured in the U.S.

I do try to purchase goods made in the U.S. when possible, but not if they are of inferior quality to other available goods. I have never made a purchase at Walmart and don't plan on making any.

I have a degree in supply chain management and currently working on mba with a focus on supply chain management.
I spent a semester studying in HongKong, and a semester studying in Mexico City. I only give this info for background purposes, eventually, I hope to get my doctorate and teach supply chain management.

Having said this, we do live in a global economy, as much as many people want to deny it.
The world isn't like it was 50 years ago, 100 years ago, or 20 years ago.
Other countries are striving to reach what we have already achieved. The bar is being raised and I don't believe we are reaching high enough to grab it.
We are more and more becoming a country of people who believe they are "entitled" to everything. Hard work/hard labor by Americans is becoming a thing of the past. "I'm entitled to everything because I'm an American"-Isn't this why all the illegal aliens are coming here "to do jobs Americans don't want to do".

And as far as people saying that you can't use past buying experinces to judge your future purchase, of course you do. I have owned 3 Camaros, my current is a 2001. You can argue that the quality of that car is as good as the quality of a 2001 Honda or (insert another manufacturer), but I don't believe it is. If I can't use my 3 previous experinces of owning Chevys, what am I supposed to use? Of course I read reviews by auto publications, but who wouldn't use their 3 previous ownership experinces in judging a future purchase.

This discussion is best suited for another thread, too much divergence.
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2001 M6 SS Convertible- Black on Black
Mods: FTRA, Hurst Short Throw, !AIR, Pacesetter LT's, TSP Catted-Y, Magnaflow catback, Whisper lid, SLP smooth bellow, Ported TB, 3.73's, BMR Torque Arm, STB, LCA, SLP Panhard rod, UMI relocation brackets, Nitto D/R's, LPW Axle-Tube Brace, billet grill, 335rwhp/347rwtq

The more we do to you, the less you seem to believe that we are doing it.
proporio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2009, 01:28 PM
LS1Tech
Pontiac Firebird




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