camaro sales still lagging
08-05-2016, 01:23 PM
#21
But you have to remember WHAT was ACTUALLY available. I recall going to the Pontiac dealer numerous times and seeing 30K cars. The idea of a stripper formula for peanuts is great, but where are they? Evidenced by the fact that you rarely see them today. GM pushed heavily optioned EXPENSIVE cars. Check out this article. It backs this up.
http://www.motortrend.com/news/fcar/
08-05-2016, 01:28 PM
#22
From the article....
Price, for younger enthusiasts, was also a contributor. Z28 models represented well over 50 percent of the Camaros built this final year, and over half of them were equipped with the SLP Super Sport package, a combination carrying a sticker price exceeding $30,000. A fully dressed Trans Am convertible reached almost $40,000.
Competition also had a hand in the sales drop. New entries, like the Mitsubishi Eclipse, Toyota Celica, and, to a lesser extent, the Supra, provided new competition at the top and bottom of the line. Honda Civic hatchbacks capture young buyers with their affordability, economy, proven reliability, and outstanding quality. In smaller numbers, cars like VW‘s New Beetle and GTI skimmed their share, too.
Then there’s the F-body’s original rival, the Mustang. Styled in a less rakish, more upright fashion, Mustangs are sporty four-passenger cars with similar performance at price points consistently below comparable Camaros and Firebirds. Though, less aggressive and not as quick, the Mustang offers more refinement in an easier-to-live-with package than the GM entries.
Price, for younger enthusiasts, was also a contributor. Z28 models represented well over 50 percent of the Camaros built this final year, and over half of them were equipped with the SLP Super Sport package, a combination carrying a sticker price exceeding $30,000. A fully dressed Trans Am convertible reached almost $40,000.
Competition also had a hand in the sales drop. New entries, like the Mitsubishi Eclipse, Toyota Celica, and, to a lesser extent, the Supra, provided new competition at the top and bottom of the line. Honda Civic hatchbacks capture young buyers with their affordability, economy, proven reliability, and outstanding quality. In smaller numbers, cars like VW‘s New Beetle and GTI skimmed their share, too.
Then there’s the F-body’s original rival, the Mustang. Styled in a less rakish, more upright fashion, Mustangs are sporty four-passenger cars with similar performance at price points consistently below comparable Camaros and Firebirds. Though, less aggressive and not as quick, the Mustang offers more refinement in an easier-to-live-with package than the GM entries.
08-05-2016, 02:01 PM
#24
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But you have to remember WHAT was ACTUALLY available. I recall going to the Pontiac dealer numerous times and seeing 30K cars. The idea of a stripper formula for peanuts is great, but where are they? Evidenced by the fact that you rarely see them today. GM pushed heavily optioned EXPENSIVE cars. Check out this article. It backs this up.
But you're not required to buy what's on the lot. In '98, anyone could order a new stripper Z28 for just a hair over $20k. Same was true for Mustang GT. Or, either car could be had with basic/popular optional content for about $22-23k, or even higher if you wanted a ton of options. But regardless of options, both cars were comparably priced in that era.
Higher trim levels, such as WS6 or SS/Firehawk (and especially those with additional SLP content), obviously were more money. But again, nobody was forced to pay those higher prices just to get into an F-body with a V8 - if they paid for a WS6 or SS/Firehawk, they were doing so out of specific personal desire for those trim levels and not because it was the price of admission to an LS1/GM performance.
08-05-2016, 03:43 PM
#25
I honestly don't think GM cares how well this car sells. The entire Alpha platform is selling terrible (at their respective price points), and GM has done nothing to adjust the price tags to get them moving. Given that Camaro + ATS + CTS is selling at a high enough click to be profitable internally is all they are concerned about.
I was adamant that the 6th Gen would be my next vehicle, but I'm just not feeling it anymore. Spending about $45K for a 2SS optioned the way I'd want it just doesn't make sense for a 3rd vehicle that I can only drive 2/3 or 3/4 of the year.
I was adamant that the 6th Gen would be my next vehicle, but I'm just not feeling it anymore. Spending about $45K for a 2SS optioned the way I'd want it just doesn't make sense for a 3rd vehicle that I can only drive 2/3 or 3/4 of the year.
08-05-2016, 05:00 PM
#26
Ford did the same thing, many/most GT models sitting on dealer lots were premium package cars or at least had optional content that pushed their sticker prices several thousand above the $20k base price, just like Z28s and Formulas - and not too far from base Trans Am either.
But you're not required to buy what's on the lot. In '98, anyone could order a new stripper Z28 for just a hair over $20k. Same was true for Mustang GT. Or, either car could be had with basic/popular optional content for about $22-23k, or even higher if you wanted a ton of options. But regardless of options, both cars were comparably priced in that era.
Higher trim levels, such as WS6 or SS/Firehawk (and especially those with additional SLP content), obviously were more money. But again, nobody was forced to pay those higher prices just to get into an F-body with a V8 - if they paid for a WS6 or SS/Firehawk, they were doing so out of specific personal desire for those trim levels and not because it was the price of admission to an LS1/GM performance.
But you're not required to buy what's on the lot. In '98, anyone could order a new stripper Z28 for just a hair over $20k. Same was true for Mustang GT. Or, either car could be had with basic/popular optional content for about $22-23k, or even higher if you wanted a ton of options. But regardless of options, both cars were comparably priced in that era.
Higher trim levels, such as WS6 or SS/Firehawk (and especially those with additional SLP content), obviously were more money. But again, nobody was forced to pay those higher prices just to get into an F-body with a V8 - if they paid for a WS6 or SS/Firehawk, they were doing so out of specific personal desire for those trim levels and not because it was the price of admission to an LS1/GM performance.
Another thing to remember, especially in the context of what is on a lot at a given time, a loooot of people who buy pony cars aren't even true car people. They don't have the same feelings most of US do. There are lot of Camaros and Mustangs driving around because somebody saw one and said "Hey, cool, I think I might get one of those Camustang thingies" Exaggerating, but you get the point. These people aren't narrowing down options and blah blah. They see it, they go look at one, if they like it and can afford it then maybe they buy it. If they like it and cant afford, they dont buy it. If your Pontiac dealer has three $31K TA's on the lot and your local Ford dealer has four $24K GT's on the lot...... That's how it went. Again, the article backs this up. This is a legit car magaine and the article was published as the cars were being discontinued, not a year or so ago.
I'm telling you, I didn't imagine the sea of 30K price tags. I checked my dealer often and even test drove a white convertible because it was the one with easest test drive access. Every time I went to the dealer I would leave the dealer in my five liter Mustang saying, no, it's just too much money.
08-05-2016, 05:07 PM
#27
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I honestly don't think GM cares how well this car sells. The entire Alpha platform is selling terrible (at their respective price points), and GM has done nothing to adjust the price tags to get them moving. Given that Camaro + ATS + CTS is selling at a high enough click to be profitable internally is all they are concerned about.
I'm not really sure what they can do at this point though. There have been MSRP reductions in the past, when GM was having trouble, but discounting the brand is also a risky move in terms of perception. I think GM should have had more foresight in terms of limiting MSRP creep on some of these models - I don't know about the other nameplates but the sales success of the 5th gen Camaro might have led to overzealous projections for 6th gen sales, hence the price jump and continued gap growth between it and Mustang. They took a gamble, and things didn't unfold favorably; such is business. But from what I understand, there was something like a $700 MSRP jump for the 2017 Camaro - not sure if that's true as I haven't looked at their pricing yet but, if it is, then it's just foolish on GM's part. I agree that discounting the price may look weak, but further increases on a same-gen model that's down from previous year sales is a bold and risky move. Sure, that's more profit per sale, but what if this causes even *more* reduction in sales. Then the problem becomes even harder to fix as they wait for Mustang pricing to catch up. If Ford is smart, they will take advantage of this and limit any MSRP increase on their model to allow an even bigger gap to grow between the two.
Nothing in the world would get me to spend that kind of money on a 6th gen, especially as a toy. I've recently seen some super low mile (like ~10k or so, almost new cars still) early LS3 C6s for bottom $30s - that would be a much better spring/summer/fall toy purchase IMO.
08-05-2016, 05:15 PM
#28
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No, you aren't. But 99% of people do. S, gun to my head I would say 95% do at least. Car buying is very emotional and somewhat impulsive. Are there dweebs like us that research every available option, combo, etc before deciding to buy a car and then go hunt down or order THAT car? Yup. But the majority of the car buying public is comprised of different types of dweebs.
Another thing to remember, especially in the context of what is on a lot at a given time, a loooot of people who buy pony cars aren't even true car people. They don't have the same feelings most of US do. There are lot of Camaros and Mustangs driving around because somebody saw one and said "Hey, cool, I think I might get one of those Camustang thingies" Exaggerating, but you get the point. These people aren't narrowing down options and blah blah. They see it, they go look at one, if they like it and can afford it then maybe they buy it. If they like it and cant afford, they dont buy it. If your Pontiac dealer has three $31K TA's on the lot and your local Ford dealer has four $24K GT's on the lot...... That's how it went. Again, the article backs this up. This is a legit car magaine and the article was published as the cars were being discontinued, not a year or so ago.
I'm telling you, I didn't imagine the sea of 30K price tags. I checked my dealer often and even test drove a white convertible because it was the one with easest test drive access. Every time I went to the dealer I would leave the dealer in my five liter Mustang saying, no, it's just too much money.
Another thing to remember, especially in the context of what is on a lot at a given time, a loooot of people who buy pony cars aren't even true car people. They don't have the same feelings most of US do. There are lot of Camaros and Mustangs driving around because somebody saw one and said "Hey, cool, I think I might get one of those Camustang thingies" Exaggerating, but you get the point. These people aren't narrowing down options and blah blah. They see it, they go look at one, if they like it and can afford it then maybe they buy it. If they like it and cant afford, they dont buy it. If your Pontiac dealer has three $31K TA's on the lot and your local Ford dealer has four $24K GT's on the lot...... That's how it went. Again, the article backs this up. This is a legit car magaine and the article was published as the cars were being discontinued, not a year or so ago.
I'm telling you, I didn't imagine the sea of 30K price tags. I checked my dealer often and even test drove a white convertible because it was the one with easest test drive access. Every time I went to the dealer I would leave the dealer in my five liter Mustang saying, no, it's just too much money.
On the other hand, there is NO WAY to get a 6th gen V8 Camaro at the same MSRP point as a current Mustang GT. Individual negotiation notwithstanding, anyone who prices these out via the net or by looking at window stickers is going to notice the big price gap between the two. Such was just not the case for Z28 vs GT in the LS1 years.
08-05-2016, 05:47 PM
#29
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That's my window sticker for my pretty well loaded SS. I had about 1500-2k more in slp options that the dealer let me have at cost. He also gave me 2k more on my trade than what it was worth. Done over i woulda bought a base care with preferred equipment group, monsoon, rear winfiw defrist and called it a day.
08-05-2016, 07:15 PM
#30
if GM did raise prices on a 6th gen then id expect ford to raise their prices on mustangs. thats just usually how it works.
difference is ford can get away with it due to strong sales.
im betting it wont be anytime soon GM and its dealers will start aggressively discounting 6th gens. theyll just limit production until sales get dangerously low.
difference is ford can get away with it due to strong sales.
im betting it wont be anytime soon GM and its dealers will start aggressively discounting 6th gens. theyll just limit production until sales get dangerously low.
08-05-2016, 09:16 PM
#31
TECH Apprentice
Ford tends to budget more on performance areas on Mustangs than GM does on Camaros. Especially on their base V8 cars. Two common place for them to budget are the suspension design and manual transmissions.(along with tires, etc) Ford has improved on this since they introduced the Coyote but they still budget with the crappy Chinese MT82 compared to a 6061 for the Camaro, and I'm pretty sure the Gen6 Camaro has a little bit better suspension design even though they're both pretty much the same type of suspension setup for the first time. From what I've seen it looks like the Camaro doesn't wheelhop quite as badly as the new Mustangs do with stock suspensions.
Ford budgeted the older GT's like crazy. The S197 used a 3 link design but it was a cheaper design than a torque arm setup, and they rocked 5-speeds until they switched from the 3v 4.6 to the 5.0, but at that time they had no real competition to make them have to do better. When you compare the SN95's/New Edge Mustangs to the Gen 4's it's like how did these cars start at roughly the same price? The Mustangs crap 4 link, stamped struts, and weaker 5-speeds were much cheaper to produce and sell than the Fbody's SLA, torque arm setup, and T56. All the Fbody uses a Vette motor where the Mustang used a weak, iron block 4.6 which was basically a entry level F150 V8.
And on top of that they got noticeably worse MPG's than the LS1 cars.
Ford budgeted the older GT's like crazy. The S197 used a 3 link design but it was a cheaper design than a torque arm setup, and they rocked 5-speeds until they switched from the 3v 4.6 to the 5.0, but at that time they had no real competition to make them have to do better. When you compare the SN95's/New Edge Mustangs to the Gen 4's it's like how did these cars start at roughly the same price? The Mustangs crap 4 link, stamped struts, and weaker 5-speeds were much cheaper to produce and sell than the Fbody's SLA, torque arm setup, and T56. All the Fbody uses a Vette motor where the Mustang used a weak, iron block 4.6 which was basically a entry level F150 V8.
And on top of that they got noticeably worse MPG's than the LS1 cars.
08-06-2016, 03:14 AM
#32
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Ford tends to budget more on performance areas on Mustangs than GM does on Camaros. Especially on their base V8 cars. Two common place for them to budget are the suspension design and manual transmissions.(along with tires, etc) Ford has improved on this since they introduced the Coyote but they still budget with the crappy Chinese MT82 compared to a 6061 for the Camaro, and I'm pretty sure the Gen6 Camaro has a little bit better suspension design even though they're both pretty much the same type of suspension setup for the first time. From what I've seen it looks like the Camaro doesn't wheelhop quite as badly as the new Mustangs do with stock suspensions.
Ford budgeted the older GT's like crazy. The S197 used a 3 link design but it was a cheaper design than a torque arm setup, and they rocked 5-speeds until they switched from the 3v 4.6 to the 5.0, but at that time they had no real competition to make them have to do better. When you compare the SN95's/New Edge Mustangs to the Gen 4's it's like how did these cars start at roughly the same price? The Mustangs crap 4 link, stamped struts, and weaker 5-speeds were much cheaper to produce and sell than the Fbody's SLA, torque arm setup, and T56. All the Fbody uses a Vette motor where the Mustang used a weak, iron block 4.6 which was basically a entry level F150 V8.
And on top of that they got noticeably worse MPG's than the LS1 cars.
Ford budgeted the older GT's like crazy. The S197 used a 3 link design but it was a cheaper design than a torque arm setup, and they rocked 5-speeds until they switched from the 3v 4.6 to the 5.0, but at that time they had no real competition to make them have to do better. When you compare the SN95's/New Edge Mustangs to the Gen 4's it's like how did these cars start at roughly the same price? The Mustangs crap 4 link, stamped struts, and weaker 5-speeds were much cheaper to produce and sell than the Fbody's SLA, torque arm setup, and T56. All the Fbody uses a Vette motor where the Mustang used a weak, iron block 4.6 which was basically a entry level F150 V8.
And on top of that they got noticeably worse MPG's than the LS1 cars.
I do agree that the 4th gens were a serious performance bargain. Which is why, from an objective standpoint, it seems that the 4th gen itself was truly hated for its styling and/or overall design by the majority of shoppers in this segment - because it certainly wasn't price, performance, or bang for the buck that sent people running towards Mustang. As for my personal opnion, there are few cars that have ever been built (before or since) that I like as much or more than a 4th gen F-body, but I concede that I am vastly in the minority with that opinion - not that I care.
08-06-2016, 08:08 AM
#34
TECH Veteran
Im go say the sales are lower for two reasons.
Price is the first reason I personally say the sells are lagging.
Reason number two... women. Yeah I said it. You ask a woman which one she likes better a mustang or a camaro. 8 out 10 go say the mustang. Not because it's a Ford but just because it has the lady like horse emblem on them.
Price is the first reason I personally say the sells are lagging.
Reason number two... women. Yeah I said it. You ask a woman which one she likes better a mustang or a camaro. 8 out 10 go say the mustang. Not because it's a Ford but just because it has the lady like horse emblem on them.
08-06-2016, 10:48 AM
#35
TECH Apprentice
I'm an auto guy, so I have no opinion on any of the Ford vs. GM manual transmission assertions above, but I can say that the latest Ford auto in the new GT seems to be holding some pretty serious power without many issues. As for previous generations, the AOD/AODE were certainly not as good as the 700R4/4L60E from a performance standpoint (meaning internal gearing - hence the reason that automatic GTs were always so much slower than their manual counterparts in those days.) Quality/durability would be a separate issue though, and I'm not sure there would ever be a consensus on that aspect.
I do agree that the 4th gens were a serious performance bargain. Which is why, from an objective standpoint, it seems that the 4th gen itself was truly hated for its styling and/or overall design by the majority of shoppers in this segment - because it certainly wasn't price, performance, or bang for the buck that sent people running towards Mustang. As for my personal opnion, there are few cars that have ever been built (before or since) that I like as much or more than a 4th gen F-body, but I concede that I am vastly in the minority with that opinion - not that I care.
I do agree that the 4th gens were a serious performance bargain. Which is why, from an objective standpoint, it seems that the 4th gen itself was truly hated for its styling and/or overall design by the majority of shoppers in this segment - because it certainly wasn't price, performance, or bang for the buck that sent people running towards Mustang. As for my personal opnion, there are few cars that have ever been built (before or since) that I like as much or more than a 4th gen F-body, but I concede that I am vastly in the minority with that opinion - not that I care.
People forget just how great the Gen4's were for the $. They gave you a lot of performance for the coin and I was a Mustang guy back then. It's funny how all these young Mustang fans claim that the 5.0's and GT500's are faster at the track than the Gen 5's but that that's how it always has been. They seem to not realize how much of a beatdown the GEN4's put on the Mustangs from their era. When you tell them that they like to through the Terminator out there. The Terminator was an awesome Mustang and I credit my buying one to my old Fbody friends who use to pick on me about my 99 GT being slow compared to their Birds and Catfish. Terminator was also introduced right at the end of the Fbody's production run with the sole intent of being a faster factory car. And as badass as Terminators were if you owned one you had better come correct and not half-step to a LS1 Fbody or you might get ahold of the wrong one and get your feelings hurt real quickly. People like to put the LS1 cars on a N/A DOHC Cobra and Mach 1's level and I just don't agree. They might hang pretty good up to 70/80 MPH because of their more aggressive gearing, but their not long-legged enough to hang as easily with a LS1 car at triple digit speeds IMO.
Aggressive gearing (I can't remember if it's shorter or taller gearing and always get it backwards so I'll just say aggressive) in the tranny of the new Mustangs is one reason for how fast they are. Compared to the 6061 the Mustangs MT82 is geared much more aggressive. (the 6R80 is geared to aggressive as well) I keep reading people saying that a GT350 is geared for RR'ing and that if it had a GEN6 Camaros gearing that it would easily outpace it in a straight line, but seeing as how that motor redlines at like 8200 RPM's that it's new Tremec is still gear more agressively than the Camaros.
People on the internet who've obviously never been in a LSx car seem to be under the impression that a LS motor is supposed to be some kind of bottom dweller or stump puller that falls un its face on the big in compared to Coyotes and other rev happy DOHC motors because they're larger motors that use pushrods so they don't redline at 7500 RPM's from the factory. It's pretty funny because it's the opposite of that. I mean they make decent enough torque but it's not until you start approaching redline that LS motors start to really impress. Even a stock low revving LS1 is a much stronger motor on the big end than it is down low. Maybe especially a LS1 as I've always found them to be kind of weak down low compared to other/newer LS motors when both are stock.
Last edited by JROC; 08-06-2016 at 10:55 AM.
08-06-2016, 11:01 AM
#36
TECH Apprentice
Im go say the sales are lower for two reasons.
Price is the first reason I personally say the sells are lagging.
Reason number two... women. Yeah I said it. You ask a woman which one she likes better a mustang or a camaro. 8 out 10 go say the mustang. Not because it's a Ford but just because it has the lady like horse emblem on them.
Price is the first reason I personally say the sells are lagging.
Reason number two... women. Yeah I said it. You ask a woman which one she likes better a mustang or a camaro. 8 out 10 go say the mustang. Not because it's a Ford but just because it has the lady like horse emblem on them.
08-06-2016, 01:20 PM
#37
TECH Enthusiast
I was in the lane next to one yesterday for a bit. The shape would be so nice if they smoothed it out and stopped all the cuves here and there and the angry squint front end. Plus all of of the hood sculpting.
Looks like they could replicate the look of a Holden 60 which was beautiful.
Then there is the interior..
Looks like they could replicate the look of a Holden 60 which was beautiful.
Then there is the interior..
Last edited by Felix C; 08-08-2016 at 11:38 AM.
08-08-2016, 07:42 AM
#38
Had to take the wife's Equinox in for the free oil change and got a chance to sit in the new 6th Gen. While I absolutely love the improvements to the interior, it was extremely tight in there. As big as the car is on the outside, it is very cramped on the inside. The back seats make the ones in my 4th Gen look like a Tahoe. There is no room at all for anyone to sit behind me once the seat is adjusted to my needs.
Love the performance, but I'm 100% out at this point.
I've love to go after a C6, but I am at a point where I need a (usable) back seat, so all Vettes are out as well... 
Love the performance, but I'm 100% out at this point.
Nothing in the world would get me to spend that kind of money on a 6th gen, especially as a toy. I've recently seen some super low mile (like ~10k or so, almost new cars still) early LS3 C6s for bottom $30s - that would be a much better spring/summer/fall toy purchase IMO.
08-13-2016, 10:17 PM
#39
Back in the day, I was planning to get a Fox 5.0, then the 93 Formula came out and I knew I had to have one. It took me four years to get it, but 19 years later I'm still daily driving a Formula.
I was in the lane next to one yesterday for a bit. The shape would be so nice if they smoothed it out and stopped all the curves here and there and the angry squint front end. Plus all of of the hood sculpting.
08-14-2016, 03:20 AM
#40
Douchebag On The Tree
