ULTIMATEORANGESS

iTrader: (4)

http://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=461900

z28pat

iTrader: (10)

I see this as being a great car that to both the enthusiast and the public just doesn't look like a "new" camaro.
It's so similar looking to the 5th gen that it's hurting itself where the mustang looks nothing like the last generation car.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

MSRP. Big turn-off. Even if they are willing to deal, a lot, they should have just stickered it lower (closer to Mustang) in the first place, and then simply not negotiate as much.

Perhaps they will clean up the styling for 7th gen. I'd love to see an end to anything that resembles a sci-fi robot with tires. Mustang styling has gone in such a better direction. I would really love to buy another new Camaro, but GM has pushed me away with styling and price.

HioSSilver

iTrader: (8)

I don't mind the styling. What really gets me about the mustang and camaro is lack of room in the rear seat for such a large car.

With that said i find the mustang seems to take a better picture. But the camaro seems to look better in person.

ULTIMATEORANGESS

iTrader: (4)

6th gens look great to me.


im just not seeing them that much.

z28pat

iTrader: (10)

I agree that the car looks good, I don't like the tacked on spoiler but that's it.
MSRP though , I agree that is the biggest issue since you're comparing it to a mustang.

ULTIMATEORANGESS

iTrader: (4)

i think you do get more car for your money.


but still,its a lot of money.



i still plan on getting one someday.

z28pat

iTrader: (10)

you do get more car and I can't see myself driving a mustang at all, I also see myself getting a 6th gen one day.

JROC

I think the Gen6's are awesome. I'm interested in seeing how a SS 1LE stacks up against a GT350 on a road course. Might do to the GT350 what the Gen5 1LE did to the Boss 302.

The problem with the Gen6 Camaro sales vs. the S550 Mustang sales in nothing new and is the same as the Gen4 vs. SN95/NE sales. The S550 is just a easier and more comfortable car to deal with. It's way easier to see out of from all angles and that's generally the case when comparing the two cars. People say you get use to the Camaros poor visibility but it is still annoying to have to look harder than a quick glance to check your blind spots. Also I like the Mustangs interior much better than the Camaros. It's hard not to sit in the new Mustang and not come away impressed with how nice it is. The new Camaros interior in kind of meh. On top of those things the Mustang GT starts noticeably less than the Camaro SS. Also as of right now it looks like the Coyote is a better platform to mod than the LT1 as the 5.0 loves boost where the DI LT1 does not. Plus while I hate the new Mustangs looks many love it.

I personally would rather have the Camaro though as I think it looks better and I prioritize performance in a performance car over comfort. I don't like how a Mustang has become a Gen5 Camaro.... I mean a big fat pig. Note to Big3 manufacturers: If you shrink your large sport coupes to smaller proportions then you will lose weight. These new Muscle cars are physically too large and much larger in size than a SN95 or Fbody. The Challenger's are stupid big.

Anyway back when Ford introduced the Coyote it made the Mustang GT relevant against the base V8 Camaros performance which was a first since the very early 90's. But the fact that Ford would half-step to an Alpha car (which they had years to study) with the S550 is pathetic. I knew the Gen6 Camaro was going to own a Gen6 Mustangs performance.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

For the average shopper looking for a fun V8 performance car for general purpose driving, I don't really think 6th gen Camaro is worth the ~$4k MSRP premium over Mustang. I've read tales of dealers taking thousands off of sticker price to move 2016 Camaros recently, so now that deals are happening (or so some claim) this might no longer be the case - but GM has allowed too much MSRP creep on this nameplate, and I'm sure that's a significant part of the lagging sales issue.

For those looking to push the car to the limits at the track, and/or stock power bragging rights, the Camaro might be worth it. Neither car is boring or slow though, and most purchasers of either will never make it to a race track and rarely encounter a situation where the performance gap between the two will be an issue.

The current situation is really not like the 4th gen vs. SN95 years, as the MSRP gap back then was fractional compared to now. In those days it was strictly a matter of people choosing styling/comfort/other subjective factors (Mustang) over performance (F-body). And the performance gap in that era was greater than now (think of the average performance of a 1998 Mustang GT vs. a '98 Z28, and even in '99-'02 the GT was still about 90 *actual* horsepower behind Z28.) As for the 2016 model, price is a big additional factor now so it's hard to blame the issue solely on styling or comfort - Camaro would probably be selling much better if only the MSRP was more competitive, and that's an objective assessment from someone who personally doesn't like the styling of Camaro at all.

badformulaLS1

iTrader: (1)

GM cars are too expensive period. Same deal in the truck department. Seen more people than I can count choose a Ford truck over GM because they can easily get a better deal at Ford.

AnotherWs6

iTrader: (17)

30+ grand for a new 4th gen vs 24 for a Mustang GT. There was a price difference, sales lagged, car died. History has a tendency to repeat itself.

ULTIMATEORANGESS

iTrader: (4)

thats not correct. base LS1 fbodies and mustang GTs were very close price wise.

HioSSilver

iTrader: (8)

Yea...there was like $500 difference in base price back then.

To me 6gen interior is far superior to s550 interior. I like tge simplicity of the 6gen interior. To many buttons on a s550. Base to base the camaro blows it out pretty hardcore. It takes options on the mustang to compete interior wise and it never gets there stick for stock performance wise.

As far as the 5.0 liking boost more......couldn't be more false. Any engine likes boost. And the engine that flows more air will make more power. Gm guys have been behind the boost curve more so than the furd guys. Look around......we still have guys putting ******* maggies on cars......wtf

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

This is not correct, unless you're comparing MSRP of a an SN95 GT with a few options to a WS6 T/A. But that's not a proper comparison as base V8 Camaro was a much more affordable option.

What is actually accurate is this:

....and this:

The base price difference between a GT and a Z28 was about $300 in 1998. The spread grew a bit by 2002, but it was never more than about ~$500 as stated above. As a percentage of base price, that's fractional compared to the ~$4k spread that we see between the two today.

I love buttons, ***** and switches. To me, that's far more simplistic than the MyLink grabage in new GM cars. Junk, just junk. Please bring back buttons and send these touch screens to the same landfill as those C4 Atari-dashes.

justin455

GM guys being behind on boost is because it's not necessary. Boost has been basically the only option for Ford guys since 1996.

justin455

I don't hate touch screens, but I want some "redundant" ***** as well. At the very least I want a volume **** and a way to cycle through presets, and a mode button to change between FM/XM/AUX/Bluetooth on the steering wheel. I also want fan and temperature controls. Everything else I can deal with being through the screen.

ULTIMATEORANGESS

iTrader: (4)

i must admit my touch screen can be aggravating at times. i seem to have to touch the same button a few times to get it to respond.

yes,i need to take my time and hold it a second longer but id rather not take my attention from my driving.

its not as big deal but does **** me off at times lol.


6th gens appeared to have made things more responsive at least the one i test drove was better.

im still a fan of 4th, 5th and 6th gens.

JROC

Can you show me some boosted Gen5 SBC's make serious power (let say 800+) on a factory longblock? How about ones used as DD's making 650+ WHP? I know Vengeance has one making 800+ whp but I don't know how factory the motor is and they're a huge performance shop and not some average person. It was about a year or so after the Coyotes came out that there were shops dyno'ing them at 1000+ whp with TT setups on stock motors to be able to brag on a dyno sheet. I have yet to see a LT1 make near the power under the same abused conditions that many 5.0 are frequently put through.

I'm not fanboying a 5.0. I mean they're an extremely badass little v8 for its displacement but if I liked them that much I would of bought one. I'm simply staighting the fact that the Coyote based motors are excellent as a boosted application. Just like any other Modular with a bottomend strong enough to support big HP. It's not just about if a motor will make big power with boost. In reality when you consider things other than just power that you'll make at any given psi with any given blower/turbo setup on any given motor, and start asking yourself things like, "if I boost this motor with the setup I want, to make the type of power I want how streetable/reliable/maintenance intensive/etc is it going to be" then Modulars and other OHC motors general tend to win out over OHV motors. The people with the fastest cars that I've known generally run boosted BBC's but these aren't streetable cars or certainly not DD's we're talking about. IMO you need to put a little more serious thought into whether or not you really want to add boost to your N/A SBC as opposed to a new 5.0.

There is many awesome things I think about when talking Gen3+ SBC motors but being great for taking OEM longblocks and adding boost to them to make huge power in a very reliable motor with stock street manners is not one of them. At least not the same way it is with a Coyote. It still amazes me the power people are making with these 5 liter motors that they've bposted and use as a DD. IMO what's awesome about LS motor is all the different options you have with them (yes even boost as you can build a very badass LS based boosted motor) but especially their N/A potential. For the size and weight of a LS motor your ci options are truly amazing and while the Ford guys like to talk about efficiency and how people have made over 500 whp with the Coyote if you really want to make huge N/A #'s a Coyote just can't compete with a large displacement LS and likely new LT when people start building them at 400+ ci's. You can build a LS motor to be great for just about anything.

I'm not the first person to make these claim and I feel that most people who have no real bias to either brand or motor platform share most of my opinions on the benefits each platform has on the other. Surely you must agree to some extent or why build a TermiFox? (I'm building one as well and I use to DD a Terminator for years) From the factory you're talking about a 655 lb longblock. That motor could ancher an aircraft carrier so why weigh down a Foxbody with one when you could add an aluminum LS motor and custom turbo kit which would be easier, cheaper, simpler, lighter to do in a Foxbody? Probably because you recognize the attributes a forged Modular has for a boosted car and you would like a car with those qualities. Your talking about TVS 2300 based Maggie blowers in on Fbody's well Terminator and I'm pretty sure Coyote people running TVS 2300 blowers on their cars are often making 700+ whp pretty easily on factory motors. (not necessarily cheaply) Like most people on here I've seen LS powered cars making 4 figured #'s with boost but we're not talking about built motors that won't be used as a DD or see 50k before being rebuilt, we're talking about people buying brand new cars and why they buy one over the other. Being better for boosting is a popular reason people give for buying a 6th Gen Mustang over a Gen6 Camaro.

Back to the DI debate GM isn't the only company who makes DI motors that are less than ideal for modding big power out of using boost because their DI system becomes a hindrance. Fords gay little Ecobullshit motors are excellent examples of this. Sure people like to think that their little DI, 60*, TT v6 motors running fairly high psi's and sound that worse than a Pruis with a fart can can make 450 whp and stong lowend torque is awesome (and it's not unimpressive in al honesty) but why don't you see people modding these cars to 500/600 whp? From what I've been told is that just like with the LT motors the DI system will not support big power in boost application and there's no simple way to get around using a DI system on them. In the future people might figure out how to make DI work better for enthusiast modding their cars but these motors and fuel systems aren't exactly new anymore. For this reason I've jumped off the DI bandwagon even though it has many benefits. I also feel that it's why Ford hasn't gone DI with the Coyote motors. From what I've read about boosting the LT1 it seems to me that the LS platform would be the better motor for an enthusiast to mod with boost.

HioSSilver

iTrader: (8)

You shoulda took the time to look around in here. There is gen3 stuff rolling around at 800+hp. The coyote isn't doing anything that hasn't been done.

The furd stuff has been boosted for a long time.....because they literally can't compete na. Hell most the blowers are sized around thr ford motors. On top of that you still hsve chevy guys putting a pos maggie on ls motors. Even the 2.3 tvs that works great on yhe ford motors is just to small on the ls/lt stuff. They make great tq but just can't flow enough air to let the engine run to high/extended rpm

The lt1 is very new....the chevy guys seem to have a less steep curve in exploring their motors potential. The di is likely holding it back a bit right now. It may take another set of normal type injectors to feed the fuel properly. It's also a very mild motor by comparison to the coyote.

My termi fox was for a friend he and i built for him. He took it to the drag strip before finishing the car......and blew it up hot lapping it. I bought the car rebuilt the motor and finished it because i like it. That by no means mean i overlook the short comings of that platform. I'm a na guy tho. To be honest i tried to talk him into a coyote when we were building it.