obrien24

iTrader: (2)

Found this post on another site. It is very good.

By Roger Simmermaker (Commentary) PITTSBURGH POST GAZETTE......
Dec. 19, 2006

Ford and General Motors have taken turns besting the Toyota Camry in quality surveys for the past two years, but if you talk to many Americans – especially the ones who would never consider supporting home-based auto companies – you'd never know it.

Last year, the Chevrolet Impala beat the Camry in initial quality, according to J.D. Power & Associates. And Consumer Reports just announced that both the Ford Fusion and Mercury Milan scored higher than both the Camry and the Honda Accord this year.

Even as GM and Ford have accumulated award after award on vehicle quality, you'd almost never know about such quality gains made by American companies.

There's also the mythical perception that foreign automakers produce the most fuel efficient cars and that Detroit only makes gas-guzzlers when the truth is that all automakers – including Toyota, Honda and Hyundai-Kia alike – have allowed fuel economy to slide in the past 20 years since they all now sell bigger trucks and more SUVs.

Perhaps the biggest perception problem is that American automobile companies GM and Ford – Chrysler is now German-owned – squander all their money on plants overseas and foreign automakers build their factories in the United States. Foreign car lovers will surely point to Kia's plans to build its first-ever U.S. plant in Georgia, but they probably won't mention that they received $400 million in tax giveaways to do it, which translates into $160,000 per job.

Among the many benefits for the foreign-owned company, your tax dollars are going to be used for road improvements surrounding the complex, complete with flower beds and other beautification features. Hey, as long as we're going to allow states to bid for private jobs with our public tax dollars, we might as well make it look good, right?

And the foreign car lovers will probably also not tell you (or maybe they just don't know or don't want you to know) that GM and Ford pour more money into existing American facilities than foreign automakers spend on new plants, usually with little or no tax breaks. GM has already spent more than $500 million upgrading two transmission plants this year, and has spent nearly a billion dollars over the last decade, for example, for facility upgrades in Texas.

And what do GM and Ford get for making their existing plants more efficient? It isn't tax breaks. Instead, they get accusations of not being "competitive" enough! Maybe here I should also mention that the average domestic parts content for Kia is 3 percent, while the average domestic parts content of Ford and GM is 78 percent and 74 percent, respectively. This means that buying a U.S.-assembled (or even foreign-assembled, for that matter) GM or Ford supports more American jobs than a U.S.-assembled car or truck with a foreign nameplate.

Fortunately for our benefit, the United States remains the overall global leader in research and development, and a big reason for that is that American automakers. According to the Level Field Institute, U.S. car companies invest $16 billion in research and development annually, outpacing any other industry one could name.

Admittedly, the Level Field Institute counts German-owned DaimlerChrysler as an American automaker, so Ford and GM's combined R&D contribution to America is closer to around $12 billion. But who's counting, right? Certainly not the American auto-bashing media.

Japanese companies do employ 3,600 American workers in R&D, but that still leaves the foreign competition behind in the dust staring at American rear bumpers – 3,600 sounds like a big number until you realize that 65,000 Americans work in R&D facilities in the state of Michigan alone. In fact, two of the top four R&D spending companies in America as reported by the Wall Street Journal are – you guessed it – Ford and GM. The other two are also American companies: Pfizer and Microsoft.

Ford has recently made headlines as the American automaker with the most challenges to its future, but these challenges certainly are not because they "aren't making cars people want to buy." Toyota did outsell Ford in July, but since then, Ford has reclaimed the No. 2 spot.

GM has the highest market share, increasing over 2 percentage points from a year ago, so it apparently can't be accused of not making cars people want to buy either. Ford sales also are up in Europe, and Ford doubled its sales in China, where GM has the highest market share of any automaker.

GM also reported a 3.9 percent rise in August vehicle sales despite high gas prices and a supposedly slowing economy. And even though Toyota reported record sales that month, it couldn't match the non-record setting sales volume of Ford. GM's sales rose 17 percent in October from the year-ago month and Ford sales rose 8 percent the same period.

And for all the talk about the lack of fuel efficiency of American automakers, it seems three-fourths of all automakers failed to meet Europe's improved fuel-efficiency standards intended to cut carbon-dioxide emissions. Japanese and German automakers topped the list of the study's worst performers, but according to an environmental group's study, GM's Opel division and Ford both "come out well."

In closing, I'll leave some encouraging numbers for those of us who actually like to root for and support the home team. The J.D. Power 2006 Vehicle Dependability Survey reports that Mercury, Buick and Cadillac (in that order) grabbed the No. 2, 3 and 4 spots to beat Toyota, Honda, Nissan, BMW and everyone else (except Lexus) in having the least number of problems per 100 vehicles.

Perhaps someday the American media will give GM and Ford the credit they deserve. And once they do, perception among the majority of the American public will rightfully change. GM and Ford aren't only doing what they should to make gains in the American market to deserve American consumer loyalty; they're also doing what they should to make gains in the markets of China, Europe and across most of the rest of the globe.

So who here has the advantage. Not the US car companies.

Shackleford

iTrader: (12)

!

OctaneZ28

iTrader: (6)

Great article.

It sure would be nice if the media would report ALL the news.

Rawr256

Think I posted the same article a month or two back, its a good read for sure.

People always rip on the the GM interior, honestly, it gets the job done, I didn't buy a $100+K Bently, and I knew that...

When I look at the things my GTP had back in 98 and go sit in a Toyota or Honda from the same year, it doesn't even rival in the luxuries that come STANDARD in my Grand Prix, the Auto dim rear view mirror, Dual climate control, heated seat, HUD, DIC, leather, complete power seat w/ Lumbar support and comfy for 5 people 6'+ tall to sit in the back seat and front, and lets not forget the supercharger!

I think for the $5,600 I paid for it used it was worth every penny.

I looke at my TA and miss some of the things with the GP like the HUD and DIC and especially the auto dim mirror when a truck or something tall gets behind you and their headlights are level with your head, but it is meant to be a bare bones performance car, not a Corvette at all.

dailydriver

COOL!!!

I've always said that the American lemming public is brainwashed and will NEVER give Detroit a chance, NO MATTER how much better their product may be than Japan, Inc.'s. It's funny how they forgot how horrific those rust bucket Coronas were, but REFUSE to forget the sub par stuff the domestics put out.
Oh well, I just hope they learn/think/open their minds before it's too late!

Pipelayaz

iTrader: (2)

Good write up. I hate the media... dont get me started about Iraq.

bruddah_man_matt

And so what? It's not like besting Toyota two years straight will result in an immediate change of perception of an entire company. Furthermore this comment is restricted to the Impala and the Fusion/Milan. The Impala was refreshed for 2006 and IIRC 2006 was the same year the Fusion/Milan were introduced. I'd hope they'd beat the Camry seeing as the 2002-2006 Camry had been in production for 4 years already. Is there any word on the results for the 2007 models? If they beat out Toyota once again than kudos to GM and Ford both, but one model besting the competition in a SINGLE quality test isn't going to change the publics mind about the crap that rolled out of Detroit throughout the 80s and 90s. Be realistic.

What awards? North American Car and Truck of the Year awards going to the Saturn Aura and Chevrolet Silverado. Bullshit awards if you ask me. These "car of the year" awards are total crap. How they manage to pick a single winner out of all those vehicles is a mystery to me. How does the Silverado win "Truck of the Year" and right under that in 2nd and 3rd place are the Edge and the CX-7... a pair of NON-trucks. "...of the Year awards" should be handed out according to vehicle class otherwise you could argue a Chrysler 300 is better than a Corvette because it has more trunk space.

And for all those folks who tout the NACotY awards as some sort of holy grail, recognize that last year the Honda Civic and Honda Ridgeline were voted NACotY and NATotY respectively. The Ridgeline ain't even a frickin truck.

Blah, blah, blah. This guy is knocking on the Japanese for building larger gas guzzling vehicles when in fact the American public demand larger gas guzzling vehicles. Americans nag for bigger SUVs and more power and this assclown feels he has a right to criticize Toyota and Honda for giving the people what they want. Oh so it's ok for GM and Ford to do it but not these two? Toyota actually has a pretty decently sized range of V8 powered products but Honda doesn't have a single V8 in its lineup, nor does Hyundai-Kia according to my knowledge. Honda doesn't even build trucks unlike what this moron is claiming unless you consider the Ridgeline a true truck. Funny how the truck fanboys blast the Ridgeline as not being a true hauler but when it comes to CAFE ratings suddenly Honda is building trucks now.

Besdies, GM and Ford build a lot more gas guzzling V8 pickups than any of the aforementioned Japanese and Korean automakers. ALL SIDES are guilty of sacrificing fuel economy for power BUT it was the Japanese who showed up to the table with the Insight and Prius for the environmentally conscious and GM and Ford who were caught with their pants down. Furthermore GM and Ford could have taken steps to improve fuel economy by replacing their ancient pushrod V6s and 4 speed automatic transmissions but they chose to be LAZY. Only now are GM and Ford showing up to the game with transmissions that can actually compete. And good on them for looking to stay competitive by offering 6 speeds and not just 5 to match what Honda and Toyota were doing yesterday. I find it ironic that this guy writes what he does when Chevrolet IIRC took a page out of Chrysler's book and had the HHR classified as a light truck in order to improve its CAFE ratings via the SUV and Light Truck loophole.

I really have no idea what this guy is babbling about. Could one of you guys clear up what he's getting at here as personally I don't really understand how all of what he's saying "works." Thanks in advance.

GM and Ford also shut down a handful of their plants and cut tens of thousands of jobs as well so what's his point here? They better be pouring millions into their existing plants because they NEED to start being competitive. How else are you going to take the fight to Toyota and Honda without updating and upgrading and in the process spending money?

More whining about "American cars are more American than Japanese cars built in America" and how I should be "supporting the American economy by purchasing American crap." I'll buy what I want to buy. Why should I encourage GM and Ford to build boring, staid and ugly vehicles by purchasing their crappy, half-assed, yesteryear products. How many times have I heard "buy American to support America" come out of people's mouths and then I hear them make excuses to try an justify how while their product isn't the best they're "doing their part by supporting the working man." Wouldn't you rather purchase something you absolutely love getting into every morning AND support the American working man? How many folks here would rather drive a Grand Prix or the new G8? GM and Ford should NOT be rewarded with my hard earned dollars for building such terrible products. It's because of stupidly blind brand loyalists that they continued to build such crap for so long. Who knows? If people said "peace out" to their lame products 20 years ago, we might not have begged GM to bring the Aussie Commodore here, rather the Aussies might have been begging Holden to bring the US market G8 or Grand Prix down under.

Too bad US Automakers didn't invest in some common sense a decade or two ago. Perhaps if they got it through their thick heads that "good looking and reliable sells" and "6 gears are better than 4" and "trying to sell your product via rebates won't cut it," they wouldn't have ended up going the doggy paddle up the creek.

bruddah_man_matt

Quit complaining about American R&D and using it as an excuse for the poor cars GM and Ford built for years. The only thing worse than a senseless basher is a senseless supporter.

You wanna bet? So what if Ford reclaimed the spot, Toyota's sales figures are still on the rise and they're not the ones who lost 12.7 BILLION dollars last year.

So what if it's risen from a year ago? One year means jack. I'm a firm believer that GMs future product line looks strong, promising and flat out looks good in terms of exterior design. I think we will see an increase in sales at GM within the next few years, but don't look at the difference in numbers between 05 and 06 and start clapping just yet. Are we forgetting that GM lost some what, 10 billion last year? Give me a break.

Ford's sales are up in Europe? Oh really, where's the proof? And honestly if they were up I wouldn't be surprised as Euro and Aussie Fords are 10x more cool than American Fords. Ford's European product line differs GREATLY from it's US product line and they actually sell stuff there that isn't asstastic looking. Who WOULDN'T pick the new Mondeo over the Fusion? Who WOULDN'T pick the Euro Focus over the US market car? This guy needs to check his facts. As for China... different markets once again. Something this idiot of a "journalist" doesn't seem to understand. One of the Buicks sold in China is a rebadged Holden which in and of itself is a superior car to the Buicks we get in the states. Perhaps this "writer" should visit GM and Fords Chinese, European and Aussie websites to see how different the Big 2's product lines are around the world before he opens his mouth.

Slanted article. "Full of it" is actually a better way to describe it.
Some of us actually know what we're talking about and check our facts because we're not looking to submit biased and misleading articles. Fords sales may have risen 8% in October but in August they were down 11.6%. They rose a bit (less than 1%) in September but took a 12.2% hit in November. This hack of a journalist also neglected to mention that GMs sales took an almost 7% hit in September. Basically he picked and chose both company's better figures and posted them here jumping from August to October, ignoring September in the process. GEE I WONDER WHY?

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/09/01/b...s-august-2006/

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/10/03/b...eptember-2006/

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/11/02/b...-october-2006/

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/12/02/b...november-2006/

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/01/03/b...december-2006/

Pwned by the intarweb. Autoblog > Roger Simmermaker.

bruddah_man_matt

Post figures or go home. "Come out well" doesn't tell me anything.

Aww, couldn't clinch that No. 1 spot though huh? Gee I wonder who took that one? Yup that would be Lexus. Guess that means you need to close your mouth. BTW the ranking is determined by problems per 100 vehicles. Nevermind finding a Mercury with a problem on the road, how about finding a Mercury on the road period.

Perhaps someday GM and Ford will build products people want to buy for themselves and not just to support the US economy. Then "journalists" like you wouldn't have to BS yourselves as well as your audiences into thinking that we should give credit where credit is NOT due. Nice try, but perhaps you should do some research before you attempt to conjure up a nice biased persuasion piece devoid of hard facts and straight up numbers. Daydreams and wishful thinking won't get you anything or anywhere in the automotive industry. In fact it's what landed GM and Ford into the hell holes they've fallen into in recent years in the first place.

Genesis_26317

iTrader: (2)

Dude man you're gonna get your *** kick saying stuff like that on a LS1 site...

...there isn't a damn thing wrong with getting pissed at a domestic company or heavily disagreeing with something, but you really shouldn't be so insulting especially when a lot of people agree that the media is overly critical of domestic companies and overly benevolent to foriegn brands.

bruddah_man_matt

Finally I would like to add a few things.

1. obrien24 I know those weren't your words.

2. No I'm not anti-GM, in fact I'm all for GM coming out on top because they still build some of the coolest automobiles in the world such as the Z06, Commodore, Astra OPC/VXR, Zafira OPC/VXR, Solstice/Sky/GT, anything Cadillac sans the DTS, pretty much all of their full size trucks and anything powered by a Small Block Chevy. I'm simply not a mindless GM fanboy, rather I'm someone plenty capable of recognizing that GM needs to own up to its mistakes and blunders and simply offer better products as opposed to complaints.

3. I'm not anti-Ford... yet. But if they keep this **** up then I don't know. There really isn't much to say. I adore their European and Aussie lineups. They've taken Aston Martin to the limit and done incredible things with the marque in building what is perhaps one of the sexiest GTs on the planet; the DB9. Volvo went from zero to hero and has one of the classiest looking lineups of any European car manufacturer, especially since BMW went rogue with their **** flame surfacing theme led by the design **** that is Chris Bangle and Mercedes went God knows where. Ford also gave Volvo a range of competitive powertrains with the Yamaha built 4.4L V8, the all new 3.2L inline 6 and the feisty 2.5L turbo 5 pot that even sees duty in the Euro Ford Focus ST. Ford has also given Land Rover a makeover and while I'm ashamed to admit it, I think the Range Rover is one of the better looking SUVs on the planet. However their lack of competence with regards to Jaguar, Mercury, Lincoln and their US Ford lineup nullifies any of the positive things they've done for the aforementioned brands.

4. I tell it like is. Don't get salty at me for speaking my mind and writing what I feel is the no bullshit truth. I always give GM and Ford the benefit of the doubt. Whenever I criticize I offer alternatives and ask why they don't import this or adopt that. I'm not just looking to bash GM and Ford rather I seek to bash GM and Ford for their idiotic blunders and offer solutions and pose what ifs to the folks who read my stuff.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Perhaps, but who gives a ****? The media can slant the truth in favor of anyone they want. Usually it's in favor of the asian companies. You think Toyota doesn't have issues too? Like massive recalls in recent years, or sales lagging far behind GM in the Chinese market (which is likely soon to be the 2nd largest automotive market in the world). They all have problems, GM might have more problems at the moment, but so what? That's the nature of business, good times and bad times. GM has been the world's leading producer/seller of automobiles in terms of units sold for 70 years, does Toyota have what it takes to beat that record? Only time will tell.

I've spent enough time behind the wheel of both Toyota and GM products to know what I like better. Truth is, only a ******* moron would worry about what brand the media favors (jap or domestic) when buying a car anyway. Just buy what you like. Seems simple to me. Personal experiance should be far more important to a consumer than any slanted media opinion, regardless of what manufacturer is favored.

Genesis_26317

iTrader: (2)

I'm not salty I was just saying that those words are going beyond etiquette for a mature board and are in Honda forum territory.

BTW feelings aren't truth their opinions, even if those opinions turn out correct on future events they are still just opinions and not theories which are based on fact. Like feeling that GM is on the right track with their new product swing around and nicer interiors as opposed to laying off countless unnecessary employees to cut overheard.

Same thing with my feelings at Toyota and their stupid *** 4-banger engines being so ******* lame. They're my opinion and not technically fact even though they are incredibly stupid engines.

bruddah_man_matt

I tell it like is my friend.

Why shouldn't I be insulting when half of the crap that comes out of this morons mouth makes either no sense or is intended to divert the reader's attention?

It works both ways. If he was on the other side of the coin and attempting to discredit one of GMs homeruns simply because they've had more than a handful of flops in recent years I'd be on his case too arguing in GMs defense.

crazboy99

how would the people back in the like the 60's or before think about how soft people have become now...back then cars werent ment to be soft and pretty...cars were cars and trucks drove like trucks....nowadays trucks are cars that can work "like trucks"....just my $.02

mzoomora

iTrader: (36)

But you do realize he will probably never read this, so you arent actually talking to him. You are just throwing out insults for no reason. If you want to insult him, write him an email. Or even better, go see him in person.

spy2520

iTrader: (3)

lol he must have had a few beers before he replied to this thread, his argument is way too thought out for the topic at hand, and the insults got AA written all over them...

Genesis_26317

iTrader: (2)

Wait AA jokes aren't funny.

bruddah_man_matt

This guy is far from being the first person to claim what he's claiming. There are more than a handful of journalists who blindly defend the Big 2.5 for seemingly no reason at all and when their articles reach the masses I submit my reply or shoot the guy/gal an email. The reason it's so easy to conjure up a response to the BS he's claiming is because others have tried to do the same thing over the past two years or so, or whenever GM and Ford started whining about the competition having an unfair advantage.

As for insulting him, meh whatevs. If it hurts your feelings I can remove my "insults" as honestly if I were shooting him an email I'd keep my comments clean and straightforward. The insults are there to illustrate what a hack he is and how full of crap his piece is. Where's your stand? All you're doing is criticizing each and every single one of my counterpoints without offering any of your own?

Genesis_26317

iTrader: (2)

It isn't that no one agrees or disagrees it is the ricer manner of your writing that you used to disagree with that everyone disagrees with.

LS1tech.com ( ) tries to keep talk like that out of it, it isn't "telling it like it is" it is a bunch of insulting crap. The insults don't have to be directed at anyone here either or towards any particular direction it is just that they are here in general.