The Truth About the Nissan GT-R and the Nürburgring Lap Record
05-21-2008, 02:29 PM
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The Truth About the Nissan GT-R and the Nürburgring Lap Record The Truth About the Nissan GT-R and the Nürburgring Lap Record
By James Ansell
May 21, 2008
I agree with TTAC reviewer Stephan Wilkinson : the new Nissan GT-R is the old Honda NSX. Once people actually start driving Nissan’s “everyday supercar”– as opposed to simply jumping on the hype bandwagon and bench racing numbers supplied by Nissan– they’ll appreciate the parallel. Although I'm still looking forward to my first hands-on experience with the GT-R, the reality of the car’s true nature and importance in automotive history is right under the fan-boys’ noses.
The GT-R allegedly 'outperforms' thoroughbred supercars at a fraction of the price. Yes, but what price? The sticker price, or the in-your-garage price? Considering the hype surrounding the car and the limited production numbers, it will be years before a single new $70k GT-R will be sold for under $100k. At the moment, comparing the Nissan to say, a Corvette Z06, obfuscates the truth. But what the [Green] Hell…
No small part of the current GT-R lovefest can be attributed to the car’s 7:38 Nürburgring lap time. As TTAC has pointed out, there are real questions about the Green Hellmobile’s qualifications for the title “second fastest production car around the ‘Ring.” The car’s suspension was modified from the current Japanese production model, supposedly to reflect the American and European spec. Supposedly. Will anyone get a chance to compare the fabled ‘Ring runner and a final production car? Somehow I doubt it.
Meanwhile, the YouTube video of the Nissan’s “historic run” clearly shows that the GT-R had a flying start. All other manufacturers testing at the ‘Ring use standing starts for published lap times. The video also proves that the car's lap time was not measured at the exact same location (start and stop). Take these two factors into account, and the 7:40 claim seems highly dubious.
The icing on the cake: GT-R chief engineer Kazutoshi Mizuno’s subsequent admission from that "We used cut slick tyres." If that doesn’t cancel their claim, nothing does.
In fact, a regular Corvette Z06 would probably beat the GT-R on the Nürburgring. When Road & Track tested the GT-R against the Z06 on a track much smaller than the ‘Ring, they concluded that the GT-R was fast in the corners, but they didn't shed a whole lot of light on how the GT-R performed on the straights. Although the ‘Ring has an enormous amount of corners, it also has some of the longest straight-aways in the world.
In Road & Track’s technical comparo, the GT-R was just as fast to 60mph as the Z06 (despite being less powerful). What many have over-looked is the trap speed at the end of the 1/4 mile. The Z06 is about seven mph faster than the GT-R. When you look at the graph that accompanies these numbers, the GT-R’s AWD system gave it a clear advantage– but only at the start. Applied to the Green Hell, the Z06 would outpace the GT-R on the straights.
The Z06’s fastest recorded lap time at the Nürburgring is 7:42.9 This lap was driven in 2005 by Jan Magnussen in 'muggy' conditions. Last year, Chevy revised the suspension on all Corvette models including the Z06. In theory, the new suspension and better weather conditions should be enough for a Z06 to equal or even better the Nissan GT-R's true time of +7:40. When you consider that the Z06 can achieve this time with a GM-standard standing start and production tires, it seems obvious that the GT-R is no match for the Z06 around the ring.
But what does it all mean? Well, not much actually. Every racetrack is different and some cars are suited to some tracks while others are not. The GT-R is suited to smaller tracks like the one R&T used, and the Z06 is suited to longer and faster ones like the ‘Ring.
So why did I bother ranting about this? Nissan has chosen to flaunt its Nürburgring lap times to show the world that their new, high-tech Nissan GT-R is the new bang-for-the-buck Alpha. But it’s not true. The cheaper Corvette Z06 is still the worlds best [unmodified] performance car bargain. What’s more, if the GT-R cannot handle a stock Z06, then how will it fare against the upcoming ZR1? Never mind the 'almighty' spec V model.
Given the GT-R’s looks and oft-reported lack of driving feel, there’s only one reason anyone would buy the uber-Nissan: to own the fastest thing on the road. In the corners, maybe. If you were committed enough to drive at 10/10ths (never mind how “easy” it is), you could probably blow-off a 911 or similar. Down the straights (the great American pastime), there are faster and cheaper choices– and that’s without exploring relatively inexpensive modifications.
In short, the GT-R is an awesome achievement, but Wilkinson’s right: it’s not all that.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/the...ng-lap-record/
By James Ansell
May 21, 2008
I agree with TTAC reviewer Stephan Wilkinson : the new Nissan GT-R is the old Honda NSX. Once people actually start driving Nissan’s “everyday supercar”– as opposed to simply jumping on the hype bandwagon and bench racing numbers supplied by Nissan– they’ll appreciate the parallel. Although I'm still looking forward to my first hands-on experience with the GT-R, the reality of the car’s true nature and importance in automotive history is right under the fan-boys’ noses.
The GT-R allegedly 'outperforms' thoroughbred supercars at a fraction of the price. Yes, but what price? The sticker price, or the in-your-garage price? Considering the hype surrounding the car and the limited production numbers, it will be years before a single new $70k GT-R will be sold for under $100k. At the moment, comparing the Nissan to say, a Corvette Z06, obfuscates the truth. But what the [Green] Hell…
No small part of the current GT-R lovefest can be attributed to the car’s 7:38 Nürburgring lap time. As TTAC has pointed out, there are real questions about the Green Hellmobile’s qualifications for the title “second fastest production car around the ‘Ring.” The car’s suspension was modified from the current Japanese production model, supposedly to reflect the American and European spec. Supposedly. Will anyone get a chance to compare the fabled ‘Ring runner and a final production car? Somehow I doubt it.
Meanwhile, the YouTube video of the Nissan’s “historic run” clearly shows that the GT-R had a flying start. All other manufacturers testing at the ‘Ring use standing starts for published lap times. The video also proves that the car's lap time was not measured at the exact same location (start and stop). Take these two factors into account, and the 7:40 claim seems highly dubious.
The icing on the cake: GT-R chief engineer Kazutoshi Mizuno’s subsequent admission from that "We used cut slick tyres." If that doesn’t cancel their claim, nothing does.
In fact, a regular Corvette Z06 would probably beat the GT-R on the Nürburgring. When Road & Track tested the GT-R against the Z06 on a track much smaller than the ‘Ring, they concluded that the GT-R was fast in the corners, but they didn't shed a whole lot of light on how the GT-R performed on the straights. Although the ‘Ring has an enormous amount of corners, it also has some of the longest straight-aways in the world.
In Road & Track’s technical comparo, the GT-R was just as fast to 60mph as the Z06 (despite being less powerful). What many have over-looked is the trap speed at the end of the 1/4 mile. The Z06 is about seven mph faster than the GT-R. When you look at the graph that accompanies these numbers, the GT-R’s AWD system gave it a clear advantage– but only at the start. Applied to the Green Hell, the Z06 would outpace the GT-R on the straights.
The Z06’s fastest recorded lap time at the Nürburgring is 7:42.9 This lap was driven in 2005 by Jan Magnussen in 'muggy' conditions. Last year, Chevy revised the suspension on all Corvette models including the Z06. In theory, the new suspension and better weather conditions should be enough for a Z06 to equal or even better the Nissan GT-R's true time of +7:40. When you consider that the Z06 can achieve this time with a GM-standard standing start and production tires, it seems obvious that the GT-R is no match for the Z06 around the ring.
But what does it all mean? Well, not much actually. Every racetrack is different and some cars are suited to some tracks while others are not. The GT-R is suited to smaller tracks like the one R&T used, and the Z06 is suited to longer and faster ones like the ‘Ring.
So why did I bother ranting about this? Nissan has chosen to flaunt its Nürburgring lap times to show the world that their new, high-tech Nissan GT-R is the new bang-for-the-buck Alpha. But it’s not true. The cheaper Corvette Z06 is still the worlds best [unmodified] performance car bargain. What’s more, if the GT-R cannot handle a stock Z06, then how will it fare against the upcoming ZR1? Never mind the 'almighty' spec V model.
Given the GT-R’s looks and oft-reported lack of driving feel, there’s only one reason anyone would buy the uber-Nissan: to own the fastest thing on the road. In the corners, maybe. If you were committed enough to drive at 10/10ths (never mind how “easy” it is), you could probably blow-off a 911 or similar. Down the straights (the great American pastime), there are faster and cheaper choices– and that’s without exploring relatively inexpensive modifications.
In short, the GT-R is an awesome achievement, but Wilkinson’s right: it’s not all that.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/the...ng-lap-record/
this could get ugly 
05-21-2008, 03:29 PM
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TiShield you have just added the greatest post ever, now before you leave your house put on a kevlar vest. And if you see any shiny objects on any roof tops you better duck and hide behind something.
-Joel
-Joel
05-21-2008, 03:31 PM
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05-21-2008, 03:39 PM
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<---Nissan GTR/import fanboy brigadeTrending Topics
Good or bad Im so tired of hearing about it. 
05-21-2008, 03:59 PM
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I say keep it up no matter what the fanboys say, the writer brings up alot of good points and facts that if people would just stop and think it would make sense.
05-21-2008, 04:03 PM
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^^Agreed. I'm tired of hearing about this car. They are way over hyping it. I can't wait till we get to read a kill story about a modded 4 gen. f-body killing a new $100K GT-R on the highway.
With that said, I am always happy to read a non-bias review in which the facts are told straight instead of leaning toward the marketing for the vechicle.
With that said, I am always happy to read a non-bias review in which the facts are told straight instead of leaning toward the marketing for the vechicle.
05-21-2008, 05:51 PM
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Down goes frazier.... (I mean chrissy). Wow, I mean wow. That was a blow that chrissy will have a hard time recovering from, how he'll show his face on this board again is beyond me but I am sure he will. good find tri shield, and um chrissy
In the words of 'the hives', chrissy "I hate to say I told you so"
In the words of 'the hives', chrissy "I hate to say I told you so"
05-21-2008, 07:47 PM
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The Truth About the Nissan GT-R and the Nürburgring Lap Record
The GT-R allegedly 'outperforms' thoroughbred supercars at a fraction of the price. Yes, but what price? The sticker price, or the in-your-garage price? Considering the hype surrounding the car and the limited production numbers, it will be years before a single new $70k GT-R will be sold for under $100k. At the moment, comparing the Nissan to say, a Corvette Z06, obfuscates the truth. But what the [Green] Hell…
Most limited production cars with lots of hype will be marked up at first. The ZR1 included. Does this "obfuscate" the truth about the ZR1? The mark up is a dealer mark up. Has nothing to do with MSRP, which is what's being compared. This brings to mind the Shelby GT500. They were being sold at upwards of $80k. That didn't change the fact that it is still basically a $45k Mustang.
No small part of the current GT-R lovefest can be attributed to the car’s 7:38 Nürburgring lap time. As TTAC has pointed out, there are real questions about the Green Hellmobile’s qualifications for the title “second fastest production car around the ‘Ring.” The car’s suspension was modified from the current Japanese production model, supposedly to reflect the American and European spec. Supposedly. Will anyone get a chance to compare the fabled ‘Ring runner and a final production car? Somehow I doubt it.
Here's an interesting quote from Motor Trends article about the Z06 'Ring time:
"Our man-on-the-spot says GM spent nearly two weeks testing at the Nuerburgring before Magnusson flew in to set a time. Engineers switched suspension settings and changed tires many times before finding the optimum setup."
I wonder if anyone will get a chance to compare the fabled Z06 'Ring runner and a final production car? Somehow, I doubt it.
Meanwhile, the YouTube video of the Nissan’s “historic run” clearly shows that the GT-R had a flying start. All other manufacturers testing at the ‘Ring use standing starts for published lap times. The video also proves that the car's lap time was not measured at the exact same location (start and stop). Take these two factors into account, and the 7:40 claim seems highly dubious.
This has already been run into the ground. Who cares if they use a standing start or a flying start? The difference is negligible. My estimate is a max of 0.5 seconds difference running start vs. flying start. The real issue is where the lap stops. The Pagani Zonda, the CTS-V and the GT-R all stopped their clocks after coming around the last turn, NOT at the starting line. Even though the CTS didn't have a clock on their video, if you count approximately 8 minutes from the start of their run (official time 7:59.32), that 8 minutes is finished immediately after coming around the last turn. If any of these cars were to stop the clocks at the starting line, you could add about 6-7 seconds to all of their runs
The icing on the cake: GT-R chief engineer Kazutoshi Mizuno’s subsequent admission from that "We used cut slick tyres." If that doesn’t cancel their claim, nothing does.
Again, this was a misquote because of a language barrier. The Nissan press release reports Japanese spec tires were used for their runs. Not cut slicks.
In fact, a regular Corvette Z06 would probably beat the GT-R on the Nürburgring. When Road & Track tested the GT-R against the Z06 on a track much smaller than the ‘Ring, they concluded that the GT-R was fast in the corners, but they didn't shed a whole lot of light on how the GT-R performed on the straights. Although the ‘Ring has an enormous amount of corners, it also has some of the longest straight-aways in the world.
Maybe 3 of the "longest straights in the world" but depending on who's counting, well over 120 corners. Add it up.
In Road & Track’s technical comparo, the GT-R was just as fast to 60mph as the Z06 (despite being less powerful). What many have over-looked is the trap speed at the end of the 1/4 mile. The Z06 is about seven mph faster than the GT-R. When you look at the graph that accompanies these numbers, the GT-R’s AWD system gave it a clear advantage– but only at the start. Applied to the Green Hell, the Z06 would outpace the GT-R on the straights.
Again, straight line performance means little on a track with so many corners. Let's compare a Porsche Cayman to a Bugatti Veyron on your local autocross.
The Z06’s fastest recorded lap time at the Nürburgring is 7:42.9 This lap was driven in 2005 by Jan Magnussen in 'muggy' conditions. Last year, Chevy revised the suspension on all Corvette models including the Z06. In theory, the new suspension and better weather conditions should be enough for a Z06 to equal or even better the Nissan GT-R's true time of +7:40. When you consider that the Z06 can achieve this time with a GM-standard standing start and production tires, it seems obvious that the GT-R is no match for the Z06 around the ring.
I think this has already been covered above. And, ummm... if you take a look at the CTS-V video, it's pretty obvious that GM has no "standard" start for their lap times.
But what does it all mean? Well, not much actually. Every racetrack is different and some cars are suited to some tracks while others are not. The GT-R is suited to smaller tracks like the one R&T used, and the Z06 is suited to longer and faster ones like the ‘Ring.
So why did I bother ranting about this? Nissan has chosen to flaunt its Nürburgring lap times to show the world that their new, high-tech Nissan GT-R is the new bang-for-the-buck Alpha. But it’s not true. The cheaper Corvette Z06 is still the worlds best [unmodified] performance car bargain. What’s more, if the GT-R cannot handle a stock Z06, then how will it fare against the upcoming ZR1? Never mind the 'almighty' spec V model.
The Z06 that run the 'Ring was as "unmodified" as the GT-R. Remember, that were both "tuned" for the 'Ring prior to posting official lap times.
Given the GT-R’s looks and oft-reported lack of driving feel, there’s only one reason anyone would buy the uber-Nissan: to own the fastest thing on the road. In the corners, maybe. If you were committed enough to drive at 10/10ths (never mind how “easy” it is), you could probably blow-off a 911 or similar. Down the straights (the great American pastime), there are faster and cheaper choices– and that’s without exploring relatively inexpensive modifications.
In short, the GT-R is an awesome achievement, but Wilkinson’s right: it’s not all that.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/the...ng-lap-record/
The GT-R allegedly 'outperforms' thoroughbred supercars at a fraction of the price. Yes, but what price? The sticker price, or the in-your-garage price? Considering the hype surrounding the car and the limited production numbers, it will be years before a single new $70k GT-R will be sold for under $100k. At the moment, comparing the Nissan to say, a Corvette Z06, obfuscates the truth. But what the [Green] Hell…
Most limited production cars with lots of hype will be marked up at first. The ZR1 included. Does this "obfuscate" the truth about the ZR1? The mark up is a dealer mark up. Has nothing to do with MSRP, which is what's being compared. This brings to mind the Shelby GT500. They were being sold at upwards of $80k. That didn't change the fact that it is still basically a $45k Mustang.
No small part of the current GT-R lovefest can be attributed to the car’s 7:38 Nürburgring lap time. As TTAC has pointed out, there are real questions about the Green Hellmobile’s qualifications for the title “second fastest production car around the ‘Ring.” The car’s suspension was modified from the current Japanese production model, supposedly to reflect the American and European spec. Supposedly. Will anyone get a chance to compare the fabled ‘Ring runner and a final production car? Somehow I doubt it.
Here's an interesting quote from Motor Trends article about the Z06 'Ring time:
"Our man-on-the-spot says GM spent nearly two weeks testing at the Nuerburgring before Magnusson flew in to set a time. Engineers switched suspension settings and changed tires many times before finding the optimum setup."
I wonder if anyone will get a chance to compare the fabled Z06 'Ring runner and a final production car? Somehow, I doubt it.
Meanwhile, the YouTube video of the Nissan’s “historic run” clearly shows that the GT-R had a flying start. All other manufacturers testing at the ‘Ring use standing starts for published lap times. The video also proves that the car's lap time was not measured at the exact same location (start and stop). Take these two factors into account, and the 7:40 claim seems highly dubious.
This has already been run into the ground. Who cares if they use a standing start or a flying start? The difference is negligible. My estimate is a max of 0.5 seconds difference running start vs. flying start. The real issue is where the lap stops. The Pagani Zonda, the CTS-V and the GT-R all stopped their clocks after coming around the last turn, NOT at the starting line. Even though the CTS didn't have a clock on their video, if you count approximately 8 minutes from the start of their run (official time 7:59.32), that 8 minutes is finished immediately after coming around the last turn. If any of these cars were to stop the clocks at the starting line, you could add about 6-7 seconds to all of their runs
The icing on the cake: GT-R chief engineer Kazutoshi Mizuno’s subsequent admission from that "We used cut slick tyres." If that doesn’t cancel their claim, nothing does.
Again, this was a misquote because of a language barrier. The Nissan press release reports Japanese spec tires were used for their runs. Not cut slicks.
In fact, a regular Corvette Z06 would probably beat the GT-R on the Nürburgring. When Road & Track tested the GT-R against the Z06 on a track much smaller than the ‘Ring, they concluded that the GT-R was fast in the corners, but they didn't shed a whole lot of light on how the GT-R performed on the straights. Although the ‘Ring has an enormous amount of corners, it also has some of the longest straight-aways in the world.
Maybe 3 of the "longest straights in the world" but depending on who's counting, well over 120 corners. Add it up.
In Road & Track’s technical comparo, the GT-R was just as fast to 60mph as the Z06 (despite being less powerful). What many have over-looked is the trap speed at the end of the 1/4 mile. The Z06 is about seven mph faster than the GT-R. When you look at the graph that accompanies these numbers, the GT-R’s AWD system gave it a clear advantage– but only at the start. Applied to the Green Hell, the Z06 would outpace the GT-R on the straights.
Again, straight line performance means little on a track with so many corners. Let's compare a Porsche Cayman to a Bugatti Veyron on your local autocross.
The Z06’s fastest recorded lap time at the Nürburgring is 7:42.9 This lap was driven in 2005 by Jan Magnussen in 'muggy' conditions. Last year, Chevy revised the suspension on all Corvette models including the Z06. In theory, the new suspension and better weather conditions should be enough for a Z06 to equal or even better the Nissan GT-R's true time of +7:40. When you consider that the Z06 can achieve this time with a GM-standard standing start and production tires, it seems obvious that the GT-R is no match for the Z06 around the ring.
I think this has already been covered above. And, ummm... if you take a look at the CTS-V video, it's pretty obvious that GM has no "standard" start for their lap times.
But what does it all mean? Well, not much actually. Every racetrack is different and some cars are suited to some tracks while others are not. The GT-R is suited to smaller tracks like the one R&T used, and the Z06 is suited to longer and faster ones like the ‘Ring.
So why did I bother ranting about this? Nissan has chosen to flaunt its Nürburgring lap times to show the world that their new, high-tech Nissan GT-R is the new bang-for-the-buck Alpha. But it’s not true. The cheaper Corvette Z06 is still the worlds best [unmodified] performance car bargain. What’s more, if the GT-R cannot handle a stock Z06, then how will it fare against the upcoming ZR1? Never mind the 'almighty' spec V model.
The Z06 that run the 'Ring was as "unmodified" as the GT-R. Remember, that were both "tuned" for the 'Ring prior to posting official lap times.
Given the GT-R’s looks and oft-reported lack of driving feel, there’s only one reason anyone would buy the uber-Nissan: to own the fastest thing on the road. In the corners, maybe. If you were committed enough to drive at 10/10ths (never mind how “easy” it is), you could probably blow-off a 911 or similar. Down the straights (the great American pastime), there are faster and cheaper choices– and that’s without exploring relatively inexpensive modifications.
In short, the GT-R is an awesome achievement, but Wilkinson’s right: it’s not all that.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/the...ng-lap-record/
and oh yeah... IBTL!!!
'Los
05-21-2008, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Carlitos
Just my .02.
and oh yeah... IBTL!!!
'Los
and oh yeah... IBTL!!!
'Los
