wes8398

iTrader: (2)

That doesn't make ANY sense to me. If I used that same idea, then I could say that if I took the rear shocks RIGHT OFF the car, it wouldn't hold itself up anymore. Of course it will. And the SPRINGS determine what height it'll sit at.

If I put these same H&R's on my car and DON'T install shock spacers, the suspension STILL DROPS! And to prove it, I'm going to uninstall my spacers tonight. If I understand everything correctly, I'll drop the car down off the jack stands and it'll sit at the same damn height it's sitting right now. The ONLY thing that'll change is that without the spacers, now it'll pump back up that 1 & 7/8ths when the car is in motion (activating the Nivomats).

whisler151

Wes, back in 2004 WW came up with 1" spacers that were added to the top of the shock. This allowed (with lowering springs) the rear to drop 1". This was the only option for those who did not want to do coil overs...until MM came up with his mod. This allowed the rear to drop even more.

I have no interest in the MM mod because it lowers the rear too much. This is why i have stuck with the spacers that Nels continued making when WW stopped. If you want your V to be lowered 1" then remove the MM mod and just add the spacers to the shock which should be in stock position. If you like the slammed look then keep the MM mod. It looks great.

EdmundGTP

Whistler, are you looking at things from the standpoint of installing H&R springs with the MM spacers, or Eibach rear springs with spacers which are listed in your sig? Even though both H&R and Eibach advertise the same drop amount for their rear springs, I have serious doubts as to how similar they really are..

If your previous experience regarding spacers and springs is based on using Eibach springs, then we're comparing fruits of a different type here..

whisler151

I'm talking about installing Eibach or H&R springs with the original style spacers. Both yielded the same rear lowering...which is because of the spacers that were added. H&Rs are known to lower the front a tab bit more than the Eibach.

MM (im sure he can chime in here) wanted his V lower, so he came up with a new way. I do not know how it works, but do know that it achieves a much lower look than the original spacers did.

wes8398

iTrader: (2)

The key in that statement is that it allows the rear to drop more. It didn't drop the rear more. What else needs to change for the spacer to allow more drop? The spring does!

I whole-heartedly disagree that it lowers too much.

whisler151

Ok, I'm done arguing with you.

Good luck.

wes8398

iTrader: (2)

Sorry for arguing, but you did just state that you dont even know how these spacers work. I've done endless reading on the topic and been well informed by many, including mightymouse. I'm confident that I'm right here, and I don't want others to continue being misinformed. Please dont take it personally. I appreciate anyone who takes the time out of their life to chime in on a topic.

whisler151

I understand what you are saying about the spring. My point was that H&R developed these springs in 2004. There was no MM mod back then. People put the spacers on the top of their shocks to lower 1".

If you want more than a 1" drop, do the MM mod. But know that it will drop it ~2". If you want a 1" drop do what we've been doing for years.

EdmundGTP

Looking at this, (http://www.cadillacfaq.com/faq/answe...cts/index.html) it appears that the WW spacers and MM spacers effectively do the exact same thing, and basically let the rod of the shock extend up past the mounting point by XX inches. Perhaps in slightly different amounts for each of the spacer types.

Either way, regardless of what changing the shock spacers does or doesn't do, the best way to adjust ride height is with the spring, and the ideal setup (spacer/spring combo) would induce NO auto-leveling of the nimovat shocks. There's a reason why all coilover systems, and even the ground control system, are adjustable based on the spring perch locations. That's because the basic premise of a shock is that it's not a load bearing device, but a dampening device to control the motion of the spring as it supports the vehicle load. Unfortunately our shocks have a bit of mechanically driven logic built in that can manipulate the ride height when its predetermined travel parameters are exceeded, and unfortunately plays hell with trying to lower the car.

At the same time I don't anticipate that H&R will do much of anything to take a pro-active role in addressing the drop discrepancy. They've sold how many hundreds (thousands?) of CTS-V lowering springs, and I'd be willing to bet that this is the first that they're hearing about any sort of "issue".

I'd also be willing to bet that even if Wes reinstalls the H&R springs with NO shock spacer, that the total drop will STILL be more than what their advertised amount is. Until he goes and drives it around..

Either way I'd be curious to know what H&R's design criteria and guildlines were when they developed the springs, but I doubt we'll ever receive a full report on that.

I actually don't think that either of you guys are wrong here.. The MM spacer was created to get a drop of MORE than 1 inch. If the combination of eibach/HR springs and the old style spacers gave a drop of a consistently measurable 1.00" then I'd be willing to bet that the ride height there was the result of the shock operating near its "normal operation" compressive travel limit and it was aiding in the lift of the rear of the car more than its design intended to.

What I'm getting at is, the MM spacers seem to allow the shock to remain within or closer to its range of "normal operation", which in turn means it doesn't contribute significantly to holding up the rear of the car. That results in the spring compressing further, and lowering the car more.

whisler151

Agreed.

BudRacing

iTrader: (3)

I think I like this theory the best. I'll put in the MM spacers, and if it's too low, I may add some heater hose to the top and/or bottom of the springs for a little more spring height.

wes8398

iTrader: (2)

I've decided against the un/re-install of the MM spacers, especially since it's just for argument's sake. Instead, I'm going to try to solve some of my problems and get these damn wheels on. Gonna cut a coil off the rear OEM springs and re-install them tonight. I have a set of MAP trailing arms that are on their way (courtesy of wheeldude - great customer service!), and once both these things are done I think I should be in the clear. I still *might* roll the fenders after that, but I'm waiting on the tool to become available. I also want to see if I can get away without fender rolling after the taller springs and new trailing arms are installed.

Back onto the original topic here - I'm going to continue to pursue H&R myself. If anyone else wants to do the same, all the better. I'll post here if anything ever happens, but like most of the rest of you, I'm not expecting much. We'll see.

CamminV6

iTrader: (33)

Where might I buy these spacers that only drop the car 1"???

EdmundGTP

Don't think anybody makes them anymore...

CamminV6

iTrader: (33)

guess that why everyone kept saying to buy the MM spacers. My car is only too low in the driver rear by 3/8", maybe I can play around with the spacers and bring it up to being even with the passenger side.

EdmundGTP

You're really missing the point of everything that's been discussed so far. If you're unhappy with the ride height. Adjust it by shimming the spring itself. Not the shock spacer.. Messing with the spacer is just forcing the shock absorber back into the operating range where it wants to auto-level, and that makes your ride quality start to suck.

itsslow98

iTrader: (18)

Sounds like user or car error not spring error. I have seen COUNTLESS threads and posts on here with how happy they are with H&Rs. FAR FAR FAR more then bad reviews about them.

Problem I see is you lowered the car, then tried to stuff wheels that really have no business being on the car if you didnt want trouble.

19x10 wheels on a lowered V1 is asking for trouble and thats what you got. Trailing arms need to be modified, fenders need to be rolled. I think your blaming the spirngs for your trouble when it may be your wheel choice and tire choice.

Have you considered that your shocks may be worn out or need to be replaced? I dont think your gonan see H&R getting many phone calls about cars being lowered too much with their springs.

EdmundGTP

That's all well and good, and I agree with you for the most part really, but the main thing that's being pointed out here is the FACT that the actual drop H&R springs provide is significantly more than what they advertise. The lowering "too much" aspect of it is pretty subjective from person to person. I wouldn't say it's "too much". More than advertised? Yep.

wes8398

iTrader: (2)

Cut and dry, nowhere for misunderstanding: H&R said 1" drop in the rear. Actual results were 1 7/8" drop. That's my beef.

The wheels/tires not fitting, yah, of course I'm putting some blame on the springs! It's deserved. Had the springs done what they advertised to do and given me a 1" drop, then the tires wouldn't have been bitten by the fender because they would have had that 7/8" more room. Almost an inch more room would give a considerable amount of extra room for body roll, which was what caused my fender to bite my tire.

On a great customer service note, Wheeldude actually bought the MAP trailing arms that are on their way to me now. All I did was call the LC rep to tell him about the issues I was having. He asked what could be done to remedy the situation and I told him about the MAP arms. He asked how much, and I told him. He issued refund for that amount. It was stellar customer service. He did say that they'd be adding a warning to the wheel description that these issues may arise, but since that warning had not been conveyed to me (I have multiple emails from them stating that the wheels with 275/35-19 tires would fit without any other modifications), that he'd take care of the issue.

Also notable is this: I cut my stock springs this afternoon and swapped 'em in place of the h&r's. For those of you saying that the MM spacers were what was making me "too low", can you explain how these 'new' springs now have my rear fenders a 1/2 inch higher with spacers still installed? After cut spring install and a drive around to seat them, my rear fenders are now between 26 3/8" and 26 1/2" off the floor with the cut springs and MM spacers. Half an hour prior, with the H&R's and MM's, my rear fenders were 25 7/8" off the floor.

With cut OEM springs and MM's installed:






What I took off the OEM springs:

itsslow98

iTrader: (18)

Have you tried throwing the stock wheels and tires back on the car to confirm the height and issues with the tires? You ddid do all this at one time correct and never put the stock wheels on with the H&Rs?