Alignment on Friday...suggestions?
11-10-2012, 04:58 PM
#1
Alignment on Friday...suggestions? As the title suggests, I'm having my car aligned this Friday to account for the various changes that I've made to the suspension and the inclusion of Forgestar F14 wheels. I've read the FAQ's alignment page and drudged up a whole bunch of old threads, but I'd like to hear your thoughts and/or recommendations.
Here's additional information to consider:
1. I don't track the car, but whenever the road provides an opportunity to corner hard, I take it. On my commute to work, I always exceed 0.85G and occasionally exceed 1.10G. From my perspective, the car feels sluggish into turns, and I hope that this alignment will make it feel more nimble.
2. My car is lowered a little further than average (one or two finger widths tire-to-fender clearance, depending on your fingers). Based on a quick eyeball, I think the car naturally wound up at -0.50 camber front and less than -0.10 camber rear.
The "aggressive street" alignment settings call for -1.0/-1.5 degrees camber front/rear. If a little extra camber (i.e.: -1.5 total degrees) in the front would help alleviate the possibility of incurring front fender damage, I might take it, but I'd like to know beforehand what to expect in terms of its effect on handling. I understand the purpose of camber, but I don't know how the balance of front/rear camber affects handling or why the "aggressive street" configuration features different front and rear settings.
3. I've gone back and forth on the BMR rear toe rods for a while now, and can't see a reason to buy them. Have any of you seen any definite improvements? It seems that the consensus is that the TiC trailing arm bushings (which I just installed) make a far greater difference than the BMR toe rods, plus, your alignment guy will hate you for buying the BMR toe rods since they're apparently a PITA to adjust.
Here's additional information to consider:
1. I don't track the car, but whenever the road provides an opportunity to corner hard, I take it. On my commute to work, I always exceed 0.85G and occasionally exceed 1.10G. From my perspective, the car feels sluggish into turns, and I hope that this alignment will make it feel more nimble.
2. My car is lowered a little further than average (one or two finger widths tire-to-fender clearance, depending on your fingers). Based on a quick eyeball, I think the car naturally wound up at -0.50 camber front and less than -0.10 camber rear.
The "aggressive street" alignment settings call for -1.0/-1.5 degrees camber front/rear. If a little extra camber (i.e.: -1.5 total degrees) in the front would help alleviate the possibility of incurring front fender damage, I might take it, but I'd like to know beforehand what to expect in terms of its effect on handling. I understand the purpose of camber, but I don't know how the balance of front/rear camber affects handling or why the "aggressive street" configuration features different front and rear settings.
3. I've gone back and forth on the BMR rear toe rods for a while now, and can't see a reason to buy them. Have any of you seen any definite improvements? It seems that the consensus is that the TiC trailing arm bushings (which I just installed) make a far greater difference than the BMR toe rods, plus, your alignment guy will hate you for buying the BMR toe rods since they're apparently a PITA to adjust.
Last edited by FuzzyLog1c; 11-10-2012 at 05:59 PM.
11-10-2012, 05:36 PM
#2
Bonus carnage pictures of my old rubber bushings. Had to drill into the rubber and yank 'em out with a Vise Grip rather than press them out, since I broke a 4" C-clamp trying. Jury's still out on the TurninConcepts bushings. I need more time on them before making a complete assessment. However, I can say that I expect my review to be positive, considering the old bushings were as soft as pencil erasers. In fact, they were so soft that you could almost bottom them out by twisting the trailing arm with your hand. They were probably all over the place during cornering, braking, and accelerating.
OEM rubber:
TiC poly:
Also, I reinstalled the Mightymouse kit. Between that and the adjustable rear end links, the unloaded travel of my rear suspension was reduced by about 2". The geometry of my Hotchkis sway bar is much improved, thanks to the fact that I no longer have excessively long OEM end links. If I were still running 8" Eibach springs in the rear, I wouldn't have to worry about knocking the springs out when the suspension unloaded.
Before (note the Diet Mountain Dew™ product placement
):
After:
Edit: 1000 posts! Woohoo!
OEM rubber:
TiC poly:
Also, I reinstalled the Mightymouse kit. Between that and the adjustable rear end links, the unloaded travel of my rear suspension was reduced by about 2". The geometry of my Hotchkis sway bar is much improved, thanks to the fact that I no longer have excessively long OEM end links. If I were still running 8" Eibach springs in the rear, I wouldn't have to worry about knocking the springs out when the suspension unloaded.
Before (note the Diet Mountain Dew™ product placement
):After:
Edit: 1000 posts! Woohoo!
Last edited by FuzzyLog1c; 11-10-2012 at 09:31 PM.
11-10-2012, 06:42 PM
#3
TECH Resident
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 796
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just did the turnin concepts bushings myself and my old stockers where garbage. Got lucky my buddy had an air hammer and they came out fast. The turn in two piece made install easy on one side, but the other fought back nothing that a little ingenuity didn't solve quickly enough though.
If your trailing arm just laid down like it looks like in the picture I would look into the forward trailing arm bushings. Mine had to be wedged out of the way and still had quite a bit of resistance in the front. If you undid the forward mount ignore this.
If your trailing arm just laid down like it looks like in the picture I would look into the forward trailing arm bushings. Mine had to be wedged out of the way and still had quite a bit of resistance in the front. If you undid the forward mount ignore this.
11-10-2012, 07:08 PM
#4
11-10-2012, 09:27 PM
#6
11-10-2012, 11:56 PM
#7
I too installed the TiC bushings not long ago. I noticed a big difference when making a turn.
Btw, that must have been fun tearing out that rubber bushing with vise-grips
I used a 6 inch c-clamp with 2 sockets. One big enough to catch the bushing and one small enough to push it from the other side.
Pretty much the same way the creative steel tool works to remove the diff bushing.
Btw, that must have been fun tearing out that rubber bushing with vise-grips
I used a 6 inch c-clamp with 2 sockets. One big enough to catch the bushing and one small enough to push it from the other side.
Pretty much the same way the creative steel tool works to remove the diff bushing.
Trending Topics
11-11-2012, 12:30 AM
#8
where are you going for alignment? I ran the aggressive settings for a while but once I lowered it I tend to stay away since the negative camber is already pronounced enough..
I have a firestone lifetime deal but I can't seem to find anyone that can align a lowered V to save their life...they all suck! They sometimes get it within "tolerance" but as most of you guys know it can still feel all messed up even if the numbers are green. I found one kid at a location about 45 min away that could do it perfect.. but I had to stop using him after he left a control arm bolt loose one day and my wheel folded in...luckily while I was pulling out of my driveway and not going down the road.
also,
Did you guys notice an improvement in directional stability under acceleration with the Tic bushings?
I recently put 255/40s on, and it's lowered. When I give it gas, the car wants to change lanes to the left. Let off, and it centers back up and doesn't pull. It's generally squirrely and sometimes darts like a skittish greyhound out of nowhere when simply driving down the road. I'm going to save these tires in case I ever hit the track but I'm buying another set of rims with stock size tires so I can raise the car back up some (and maybe have a set of plasti dipped rims?...don't tell my wife). It's too low and firm. For a track it would be awesome but it's beating me up and I think the suspension geometry is just all jacked up now.. maybe I'm just riding on the bumpstops... In the rear I do have one old fg2 on the left and a brand new one on the right...that could be adding to the deflection issue too... ugh. these cars look awesome lowered but daily driving that way can be challenging sometimes.
I need to look into those trailing arms...don't need them, but those flex joints look real nice!!... my bushings are bad enough that I can twist the trailing arm with my hand fairly easily.
I have a firestone lifetime deal but I can't seem to find anyone that can align a lowered V to save their life...they all suck! They sometimes get it within "tolerance" but as most of you guys know it can still feel all messed up even if the numbers are green. I found one kid at a location about 45 min away that could do it perfect.. but I had to stop using him after he left a control arm bolt loose one day and my wheel folded in...luckily while I was pulling out of my driveway and not going down the road.
also,
Did you guys notice an improvement in directional stability under acceleration with the Tic bushings?
I recently put 255/40s on, and it's lowered. When I give it gas, the car wants to change lanes to the left. Let off, and it centers back up and doesn't pull. It's generally squirrely and sometimes darts like a skittish greyhound out of nowhere when simply driving down the road. I'm going to save these tires in case I ever hit the track but I'm buying another set of rims with stock size tires so I can raise the car back up some (and maybe have a set of plasti dipped rims?...don't tell my wife). It's too low and firm. For a track it would be awesome but it's beating me up and I think the suspension geometry is just all jacked up now.. maybe I'm just riding on the bumpstops... In the rear I do have one old fg2 on the left and a brand new one on the right...that could be adding to the deflection issue too... ugh. these cars look awesome lowered but daily driving that way can be challenging sometimes.
I need to look into those trailing arms...don't need them, but those flex joints look real nice!!... my bushings are bad enough that I can twist the trailing arm with my hand fairly easily.
11-11-2012, 03:21 AM
#9
11 Second Club
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Oceanside, CA
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How is your rear camber so straight at that ride height? I have -2.8 rear camber lowered on KSports. I hate it. I tried to adjust the camber to get more positive out of it, but the toe became wack and it was darting all over the road.
11-11-2012, 06:02 AM
#10
TECH Resident
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 796
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I recently put 255/40s on, and it's lowered. When I give it gas, the car wants to change lanes to the left. Let off, and it centers back up and doesn't pull. It's generally squirrely and sometimes darts like a skittish greyhound out of nowhere when simply driving down the road. I'm going to save these tires in case I ever hit the track but I'm buying another set of rims with stock size tires so I can raise the car back up some (and maybe have a set of plasti dipped rims?...don't tell my wife). It's too low and firm. For a track it would be awesome but it's beating me up and I think the suspension geometry is just all jacked up now.. maybe I'm just riding on the bumpstops... In the rear I do have one old fg2 on the left and a brand new one on the right...that could be adding to the deflection issue too... ugh. these cars look awesome lowered but daily driving that way can be challenging sometimes.
I need to look into those trailing arms...don't need them, but those flex joints look real nice!!... my bushings are bad enough that I can twist the trailing arm with my hand fairly easily.
11-11-2012, 08:03 AM
#11
- Factory default (aww, so fresh and new!). Note that the soft springs and the angle at which the car is sitting give the rear wheels an extra ~0.50 degree of camber in the rear, which is exactly how the suspension is supposed to work. If the car was sitting flat and level, the rear camber angle would become slightly less negative. Side angle, front isometric, and rear isometric.
- Lowered on the Ground Control kit. At one point, I made a horrible blind guess on the rear settings, which (again, because of the way the suspension is designed) allowed the rear to drop too far and pick up a ton of negative camber. After I corrected the issue, note how the front ended up with more negative camber than the rear end. I theorize that the front geometry is designed to become more negative faster than the rear for the same given suspension travel. Side angle, front iso, rear iso, extreme rear iso, and the mistake I made tweaking.
Later on, I kept playing with my ride height, and accidentally wound up at a positive rake angle around the same time that I had an appointment with Slowhawk. I've got a couple of pictures, but I think it's easiest to see how quickly the rear end becomes negative once you drop the car past a certain point. That's a good thing..otherwise you'd do terrible fender damage every time you hit a bump. If you prefer to see the camber with the wheels turning, check out this dyno pull video. Side-ish view, extreme front iso, and rear iso.
And this is where I'm at right now (thankfully, 93 octane is 40 cents cheaper now
):
Last edited by FuzzyLog1c; 11-11-2012 at 09:01 AM.
11-11-2012, 08:20 AM
#12
9 Second Club
iTrader: (33)
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Lafayette Indiana
Posts: 372
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I did steering and suspension at a GM dealership for the last 9 years, I dont know if i'd do the aggressive to any of my own cars at all. Just seems like to much neg camber to do any benefits on the street. I think i'd stick to -1.0 in the front and about -0.8 in the rear. normal toe and caster. We have a beautiful alignment rack at the dealership that can handle almost any car, lowered or not. I would think with your mods and a slightly more neg camber setup would be a lot of fun.
11-11-2012, 08:30 AM
#13
where are you going for alignment? I ran the aggressive settings for a while but once I lowered it I tend to stay away since the negative camber is already pronounced enough.
I have a firestone lifetime deal but I can't seem to find anyone that can align a lowered V to save their life...they all suck! They sometimes get it within "tolerance" but as most of you guys know it can still feel all messed up even if the numbers are green. I found one kid at a location about 45 min away that could do it perfect.. but I had to stop using him after he left a control arm bolt loose one day and my wheel folded in...luckily while I was pulling out of my driveway and not going down the road.
I have a firestone lifetime deal but I can't seem to find anyone that can align a lowered V to save their life...they all suck! They sometimes get it within "tolerance" but as most of you guys know it can still feel all messed up even if the numbers are green. I found one kid at a location about 45 min away that could do it perfect.. but I had to stop using him after he left a control arm bolt loose one day and my wheel folded in...luckily while I was pulling out of my driveway and not going down the road.
Did you guys notice an improvement in directional stability under acceleration with the Tic bushings?
I recently put 255/40s on, and it's lowered. When I give it gas, the car wants to change lanes to the left. Let off, and it centers back up and doesn't pull. It's generally squirrely and sometimes darts like a skittish greyhound out of nowhere when simply driving down the road.
I recently put 255/40s on, and it's lowered. When I give it gas, the car wants to change lanes to the left. Let off, and it centers back up and doesn't pull. It's generally squirrely and sometimes darts like a skittish greyhound out of nowhere when simply driving down the road.
It's too low and firm. For a track it would be awesome but it's beating me up and I think the suspension geometry is just all jacked up now.. maybe I'm just riding on the bumpstops... In the rear I do have one old fg2 on the left and a brand new one on the right...that could be adding to the deflection issue too... ugh. these cars look awesome lowered but daily driving that way can be challenging sometimes.
For a while, I was running 650F/700R 8" Eibach springs, which was mildly unsettling with a girl in the car, but recently spent about $600 upgrading to my current dual spring rate configuration that offers about 0.5" travel at 445F/460R and then locks out to become 750F/850R. That gives me a controlled ride when cruising and rock-solid spring rates to control body lean in the twisties.
That's just the way the stock rubber bushings are. They're like 60A hardness on a good day. The TurninConcepts bushings' urethane is rated at 95A hardness.
Last edited by FuzzyLog1c; 11-11-2012 at 08:41 AM.
11-11-2012, 10:18 PM
#14
11 Second Club
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Oceanside, CA
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks Fuzzy, explained a lot, really like the stance on your car. I bought mine like this and have hated the rear camber. I tried adjusting but it was too hard, I'm assuming it's best to remove the spring and then adjust the perch?
11-11-2012, 11:39 PM
#15
Apparently the camber and caster settings on the front suspension are related to a degree...once you go beyond a certain point with your camber setting, you're severely limited in terms of what you can achieve with caster.
11-12-2012, 12:04 AM
#16
11 Second Club
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Oceanside, CA
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks, front is pretty good and straight even though it's pretty slammed, but the rear is killing me, sorry for hi-jacking your thread, Thanks so much again!!
11-16-2012, 02:32 PM
#17
So, I went in today with the FAQ sheet in hand and had a good conversation with their alignment tech. My specs, having lowered the car significantly on the Ground Control coilover setup and never had an alignment before were:
Old Camber (DS/PS)
Front -0.6°/-1.0°
Rear -1.9°/-2.0°
Old Toe
Front +0.60°
Rear +0.30°
Old Caster
Front +5.70° (can't recall exactly...give or take 0.20°)
After much discussion and deliberation, the specs that I wound up having applied were:
New Camber (DS/PS)
Front -1.7°/-1.8°
Rear -2.0°/-2.0°
New Toe
Front 0°
Rear +0.30°
New Caster
Front +6.40°
Although I'm still making adjustments to the car, I can certainly feel the effect of the additional caster and zero front toe. On the drive home, I had to exert a little more effort to turn the wheel and it returned to center a little better. I got overly confident later in the drive and accidentally slid the rear tires out on a sharp turn...so there's clearly less understeer now. I guess I'll have to learn to drive better!
Old Camber (DS/PS)
Front -0.6°/-1.0°
Rear -1.9°/-2.0°
Old Toe
Front +0.60°
Rear +0.30°
Old Caster
Front +5.70° (can't recall exactly...give or take 0.20°)
After much discussion and deliberation, the specs that I wound up having applied were:
New Camber (DS/PS)
Front -1.7°/-1.8°
Rear -2.0°/-2.0°
New Toe
Front 0°
Rear +0.30°
New Caster
Front +6.40°
Although I'm still making adjustments to the car, I can certainly feel the effect of the additional caster and zero front toe. On the drive home, I had to exert a little more effort to turn the wheel and it returned to center a little better. I got overly confident later in the drive and accidentally slid the rear tires out on a sharp turn...so there's clearly less understeer now. I guess I'll have to learn to drive better!
Last edited by FuzzyLog1c; 11-16-2012 at 02:44 PM.
11-16-2012, 06:14 PM
#19
I don't want to give out his personal information. If you PM him on the Cadillac Forums, he will receive your message. He's very busy setting up his fabrication shop right now, so I don't know if he'll respond in a timely fashion, however.
