liqidvenom

iTrader: (2)

How can you give an earful to a guy, who has done what you are advocating in actual limit situations? aside from able income what level of qualifications do you have in regards to extreme brake functionality? how many vehicles have you done this in?

its one thing to have an option but you share it like its gospel.

liqidvenom

iTrader: (2)

actually dont answer that, lets leave his thread alone without dragging it down with nothing that moves what he shared forward at all.

barrok69

I never knew there was such a huge deficiency in cooling these brakes on the street or track??? Perhaps some driver training is necessary...

I've tracked my car fairly aggressively for 20laps and had a few other drivers take it around for a dozen or so laps on a track that is very hard on brakes and never had any overheating rotors or calipers changing colors, or complaints. I wish somebody could have taken some photos of the rotors glowing red on the 85mph downhill to 90° turn portion of the track. I could have gone another 40laps given the life of pads I had left (30k miles original pads) but I also needed to drive 4hrs home on the same equipment so chose not too.

Either way I can give you a tip. Get your sawzall out and start modifying your front bumper because the limiting factor isn't how fast you can shoot the air at the system, but a combination of both speed and the quantity of air you shoot at it. It's all about the CFM's. Bigger bumper hole = more CFM. The opening must be bigger than stock to get more CFM out through the duct. I would suggest deleting the fog lights and using the entire area as a duct. Depending on the issues you or whoever have whether it be boiling fluid or excessive pad wear, aiming the duct at the rotor isn't always the best place to aim the air. Cooling a 1000°F piece (rotor) vs a 400°F (caliper) piece you can see that a 10% increase of airflow over both yielding lets say a 50°F temp delta will have the most effect on the caliper vs. the rotor. Both need air, but the caliper is the critical component that will affect overall system performance, reliability and pedal feel/travel (fade).


Quoted from a person who clearly knows how suspension works. I guess with the setup you have "suspension" doesn't really exist.

Here is a quick lesson. A shock absorber damps the motion of both the sprung and unsprung masses of the car.

For all of us with normal spring rates, there is this magical thing called rebound. What?? After your wheel either goes over a jounce event or your wheel goes "into" a pot hole, it has to be controlled....When the weight of that wheel/brake combination increases the amount of control also needs to be increased.



I successfully enjoy getting compensated for what I do for a living and will continue on that path. Thanks.

An OEM is always going to make certain compromises when it comes to sub $100k mass marketed vehicles. Calling them crap because you a) don't understand why the compromise was made or b) have re-purposed the vehicle for something it wasn't designed to do, is foolish at best.

FuzzyLog1c

iTrader: (4)

You should read the series of spindle duct posts that AAIIIC made a while back. They include *some* temperature measurements, showing that the stock V ductwork was allowing the rotors to exceed 1250F.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...ml#post2419762

After working on the spindle ducts for a while, AAIIC followed up with further measurements showing that his system was reducing temperatures to 1000F. That's encouraging, and I think I can improve on it.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...ml#post2581969

You're right--if you're going to charge good money for a product, you have to demonstrate its effectiveness. I've been considering installing some MIL-T-24388 RTDs in various locations to provide quantitative data regarding the efficacy of the spindle duct kit. However, correlating RTD temperature data to actual rotor surface temperatures will be challenging. I might have to settle for delta temperatures.

I also looked into various types of infrared temperature monitoring hardware, but building a system that I could monitor with my laptop (or wire into a gauge) had me looking at over a thousand dollars.

Part of my spindle duct project (which I talked about on CF) is to install bungs in the duct to permit installation of meth sprayers for a cold shot. Ideally, it would be triggered based on temperature, but it could be manual or it could be based on vacuum manifold pressure. For more casual users, you could plumb the existing headlight washer system, since windshield washer fluid has a decent percentage of methanol in it. But this thing is really intended for people that have a real methanol injection system.

• +20 F Washer Fluid - Contains approximately 7% methanol.
• 0 F Washer Fluid - Contains approximately 23% methanol.
• -10 F Washer Fluid - Contains approximately 28% methanol.
• -20 F Washer Fluid - Contains approximately 35% methanol.
• -25 F Washer Fluid - Contains approximately 38% methanol.
• -50 F Washer Fluid - Contains approximately 62% methanol.

ls1247

iTrader: (2)

My first car had 400 hp, manual drum brakes and bias-ply recaps. We aren't in Kansas anymore Toto.....

AAIIIC

iTrader: (19)

So your on track experience with Centric products left you unimpressed? You'd be in the very small minority, then. I've used them on track, where they've seen 1250+F temps (as you've already pointed out) without any issues at all. I've even passed a couple of the used sets along to other members here, neither of whom appear to have had any problems with them.

So in addition to your on track experience with the Centric rotors, you've also used the 17D1405M pads and found them lacking? I'm running those same pads right now and think they're fantastic for street pads. But I guess I've never driven a Smart car, so maybe if I did I would realize these are inferior.

Who are these "highest-end V1 owners"? Is there a club sign-up list or how does one join the "highest-end"? Am I automatically excluded since I'm using 370mm rotors?

Pad surface area helps with pad longevity and probably helps with pad temps, but the additional thermal capacity of the rotors is the biggest benefit for me.

You make it sound like those things are mutually exclusive. Just because you can justify your behavior doesn't mean your behavior isn't that of an arrogant *******.

Yet you offer your own unsupported and/or untenable opinions on things you apparently have no experience with.

Based on my experience, I'm harder on brakes than most. I found the stock system to be lacking, which is why I've upgraded to the V2 setup. It has unquestionably made a difference on track. Based on today's experience I don't think 370mm Racing Brake rotors are going to be on my car anymore...

tmonttt

iTrader: (10)

^^^ More info on the rotor failure AAIIIC! I'm curious what happened.

DMM

It's quite obvious...he was using the -10* vice the correct -50* washer fluid for rotor cooling.

VincentT

This doesn't have anything to do with brakes, but wherever you got your knowledge concerning Myers-Briggs is flawed, especially if you think Type A and ENTJ are equivalent. A correctly informed ENTJ wouldn't likely equate the two. Your responses are more suggestive of an Axis II issue more maladaptive than just being ENTJ. Although I do make the caveat that it could also just mean that your ability to interact with others is underdeveloped.

FuzzyLog1c

iTrader: (4)

Track experience isn't necessary when there's a regular stream of PMs and emails in my inbox from people that own Brakemotive and Centric rotors and want advice on replacements after they warped on the street. Granted, a lot of them probably clamp down on the brakes at stop lights (Mistake #1), but I have yet to get an email asking about what the upgrade path from GS3500 rotors looks like.

So, on one hand, you have no problem with GS3000 rotors, but you failed out a set of RacingBrake rotors? Couple of leading questions: why do you think your rotors are so heavily scored in the center and glazed everywhere else? Have you noticed those abnormal pad deposits? Why do you think your anodized aluminum hats turned brown? Why are all of the tabs (well, the ones that are left anyway) broken on the side opposite the direction of rotation?

I think that the failure occurred due to a combination of two things: using a pad that's not compatible with the RacingBrake rotor alloy (as evidenced by those deposit rings) and stopping/parking the car without doing a cooldown lap or two (as evidenced by the EDP coating on the hats turning brown). The heat capacity of the ring is vastly greater than the aluminum hat, and without that critical cooling airflow, your hats were fried by the ring. At least you walked away from the incident. While I can't speak for RacingBrake, I think they'll take one look at your pictures and point you to the FAQ and say "you did exactly what we tell people not to do." That's why any service claim you place with them has to include your pad compound type.

Where are you getting the idea that I said they were equivalent? Also, don't assume that I can't explain your pejorative in a clear and concise way such that a moderator understands it and knows what to do about the situation.

VincentT

And I quote, "an ENTJ/Type A personality".

That's a pretty empty threat when it's going toward a guy who's only posted 50 times in the last year and a half.

FuzzyLog1c

iTrader: (4)

A stickler for punctuation? Nice. I thought they didn't exist here.

Just because you don't post a lot doesn't mean you don't care.

NIKDSC5

iTrader: (10)

Fork this thread exploded. Too drunk currently, will read in the morning.

ls1247

iTrader: (2)

Fixing all of this would be as easy as road racing a platform that's more suited for it (c5 c6 vette for example) than trying to road race a 4 door luxury sedan. For the cash you're spending on brakes alone I could buy a used gsxr750 and smoke all of you.

I know this will be big flaming but someone had to say it because I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking it.

All that being said, I admire everyone's fortitude and knowledge on this subject and I've actually managed to learn something from your conversation.

MN_V

iTrader: (5)

A couple of things; The surface area of a 370mm rotor is way more than 4% of the 355. Perhaps quoting the diameter difference would validate your point to stick with 355, but the 370 has a huge increase in functional surface area. You should know that Fuzzy.

Second; if your street driving results in brake failures and bad fading of the V's OEM Brembos on the street, you should have your license revoked as you're driving like an *** hat and putting my family at risk.

FuzzyLog1c

iTrader: (4)

Conventional wisdom suggests that cooling capability is linearly related to rotor surface area and the volume of the iron in each rotor face. Unfortunately, it's a sophomoric assumption (note: I'm not saying that you're supporting it).

Bigger rotors with a larger thermal mass can absorb more thermal energy than smaller rotors for a given ΔT. But that thermal mass hurts you on the way back down the temperature curve. And there's no correlation between larger rotors and more efficient vane designs. In fact, the fluid flow path of a large rotor with the same width as a smaller one is more restrictive. So, the larger your rotors, the more critical it is to have a good forced-air brake cooling system.

So, in short, I focused on the diameter of the rotors because I think it's the only clearly distinguishable advantage of the 370mm design. Instead of having a 355/2 = 177.5mm moment arm, you have a 185mm moment arm (4% greater).



Accusing everyone that wants a robust braking system of breaking the law is going to get you in trouble.

Going fast is as much about braking late into the turn and cutting the apex as it is getting up to speed. It's a game of efficiency. Also, you're making a rather flattering assumption about the quality of the OEM Brembo system. And I've never had a brake system failure.

MN_V

iTrader: (5)

My apologies if you took it personal about the street driving, but I believe those who have done these brake upgrades are doing it for track purposes which makes total sense. Cosmetically they are also cool and I respect that better braking is also a good thing on the street - but doesn't always require $2,000 rotors. Yes the stock brembos will fade but getting to that point on the street is another thing. Taking track principles to the street is a foolish thing and I don't get the point. On the track a good driver tries everything they can to straighten out the curves and keep speed up - enter wide and exit wide. Doing that on the street involves crossing the center line. That and I try to make the curve even more twisty if possible. Depending on 8 piston brakes to further late apexing on the street does not leave much for a margin on error, nor does it seem like fun street driving (imho). Don't get me wrong I did an hour of cruising on twisty roads today and I love it... but in the motorcycle world we have a saying that smooth is fast and fast is smooth - the whole goal is to not have to use your brakes if possible. Concentrate on your cornering lines and throttle modulation to control over/understeer is safer and more fun IMHO (again). As always to each their own and I think your projects are very cool - I just don't buy into them as a benefit on the street. As a matter of fact I'm shocked you haven't just bought a C6 Z06 by now to cut your losses and improve upon all hopes and dreams of the V. KCCO

FuzzyLog1c

iTrader: (4)

Personally, I find the process of building the V fun. It's a unique, great looking car when modified tastefully. I've come out of a store to a couple of guys standing around my car dozens of times. That rarely seems to happen to Corvette owners.

MN_V

iTrader: (5)

I left the drug store today and there was a few guys looking at the caddy, one of them jumped back in his Ford Tempo and was telling me that it was the 'dopest ride he had ever seen'. lulz... that's what I get for leaving it running while I was inside.

bmylez

iTrader: (3)

Sorry to continue the thread derailment, but I had a guy standing next to my car yesterday, look at it for a long second, and then ask, "Is that aftermarket exhaust?" Keep in mind, my car is going blup blup blup blup...yeah bro, just exhaust, that's it [rolls eyes].