No power getting to the starter. Please help.
02-08-2015, 07:42 PM
#1
No power getting to the starter. Please help. So I just finished up the project from hell on my 07' CTS-V. Engine, motor mounts, clutch, shifter, rear bushings, ect. I thought the nightmare was over but no, another swift kick between the legs. I got everything bolted up and ready to fire up and now there is no power getting to the starter. It won't even click. So I rechecked every ground and every connector and all is well there to include everything on the tran's. I was thinking maybe some sort of neutral safety switch but that goes through the clutch pedal.
When I jump 30 to 87 on the relay (or where the relay plugs into the fuse box) and it will kick the starter. 30 has power with the key in ACC but won't ground with the other pins. With the key forward in the start position all the other pins will ground it and I have 12v at all of them. With the key forward and the ground out of the fuse box I don't get power any where else but at 30. I tried re-flashing the tune to what it was when I parked it and that didn't work. I replaced the relay and that didn't work. The only thing I can think of is that there is some sort of anti theft thing that I don't know about. The car sat with out the battery for about a month.
When we disconnected the steering shaft to get the headers in it pushed up back into the column. I am not sure if that could have messed something up. But that was the only way to get it off the rack.
The only other strange thing that would be a long shot is that I only have key and key fob number 2 for the car. The dealership didn't have key or fob 1 when I bought the car. Everything was absolutely fine before this little project. I have to get this car running tomorrow. I am out of time. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
When I jump 30 to 87 on the relay (or where the relay plugs into the fuse box) and it will kick the starter. 30 has power with the key in ACC but won't ground with the other pins. With the key forward in the start position all the other pins will ground it and I have 12v at all of them. With the key forward and the ground out of the fuse box I don't get power any where else but at 30. I tried re-flashing the tune to what it was when I parked it and that didn't work. I replaced the relay and that didn't work. The only thing I can think of is that there is some sort of anti theft thing that I don't know about. The car sat with out the battery for about a month.
When we disconnected the steering shaft to get the headers in it pushed up back into the column. I am not sure if that could have messed something up. But that was the only way to get it off the rack.
The only other strange thing that would be a long shot is that I only have key and key fob number 2 for the car. The dealership didn't have key or fob 1 when I bought the car. Everything was absolutely fine before this little project. I have to get this car running tomorrow. I am out of time. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Last edited by Pray; 02-08-2015 at 08:11 PM.
02-08-2015, 09:13 PM
#3
I didn't look at it yet. I just remember the Vette one's being a plunger under the pedal. I will check the security light in the morning. I turn off the a/c and radio off when I flash the tune so I didn't check. The a/c was blowing though. Just strange that all was fine before I started.
02-09-2015, 06:13 AM
#4
With the door open the security light flashes steadily. Door closed it goes off. Key in ACC the light comes on for about 5 seconds and turns off. Key to the start position, all the dash indicators turn off except for the engine light. Key back to ACC and solid then off. The radio works as well.
I am wondering if when we slid the steering shaft up into the column to get it off the rack, something didn't get messed up internally. The column moves freely and locks. It is also lined up properly.
I am wondering if when we slid the steering shaft up into the column to get it off the rack, something didn't get messed up internally. The column moves freely and locks. It is also lined up properly.
02-09-2015, 08:59 AM
#7
I believe he means the Clutch Position Switch (CPS). I know, confusing right. I have seen this one called the clutch pedal position sensor, clutch pedal position switch, clutch position sensor, clutch pedal switch, clutch switch, and ...
Gotta run but thought this might help
Starting System Description and Operation
The starter motors on this vehicle are non repairable starter motors. They have pole pieces that are arranged around the armature within the starter housing. When the solenoid windings are energized, the pull-in winding circuit is completed to ground through the starter motor. The hold-in winding circuit is completed to ground through the solenoid. The windings work together magnetically to pull in and hold in the plunger. The plunger moves the shift lever. This action causes the starter drive assembly to rotate on the armature shaft spline as it engages with the flywheel ring gear on the engine. At the same time, the plunger closes the solenoid switch contacts in the starter solenoid. Full battery voltage is then applied directly to the starter motor and it cranks the engine.
As soon as the solenoid switch contacts close, current stops flowing thorough the pull-in winding as battery voltage is now applied to both ends of the windings. The hold-in winding remains energized; its magnetic field is strong enough to hold the plunger, shift lever, starter drive assembly, and solenoid switch contacts in place to continue cranking the engine. When the engine starts, the pinion gear overrun protects the armature from excessive speed until the switch is opened.
When the ignition switch is released from the START position, crank voltage is removed from the starter solenoid C1 terminal. Current flows from the motor contacts through both windings to ground at the end of the hold-in winding. However, the direction of the current flow through the pull-in winding is now in the opposite direction of the current flow when the winding was first energized.
The magnetic fields of the pull-in and hold-in windings now oppose one another. This action of the windings, along with the help of the return spring, cause the starter drive assembly to disengage and the solenoid switch contacts to open simultaneously. As soon as the contacts open, the starter motor is turned off.
Circuit Description
Moving the ignition switch to the START position sends a 12-volt signal to the engine control module (ECM) to command starting. Battery voltage also travels through the switch side of the Run/Crank relay then through the clutch switch, if equipped with manual transmission, and on through the coil side of the Starter relay and then to the ECM. The ECM receives class 2 information from the vehicle theft deterrent (VTD) and transmission control module (TCM) to verify that all parameters are met for starting. When all parameters are met the ECM grounds the control circuit of the Starter relay closing the switch providing battery voltage to the starter solenoid through a 30 A Maxi-Fuse.
Gotta run but thought this might help
Starting System Description and Operation
The starter motors on this vehicle are non repairable starter motors. They have pole pieces that are arranged around the armature within the starter housing. When the solenoid windings are energized, the pull-in winding circuit is completed to ground through the starter motor. The hold-in winding circuit is completed to ground through the solenoid. The windings work together magnetically to pull in and hold in the plunger. The plunger moves the shift lever. This action causes the starter drive assembly to rotate on the armature shaft spline as it engages with the flywheel ring gear on the engine. At the same time, the plunger closes the solenoid switch contacts in the starter solenoid. Full battery voltage is then applied directly to the starter motor and it cranks the engine.
As soon as the solenoid switch contacts close, current stops flowing thorough the pull-in winding as battery voltage is now applied to both ends of the windings. The hold-in winding remains energized; its magnetic field is strong enough to hold the plunger, shift lever, starter drive assembly, and solenoid switch contacts in place to continue cranking the engine. When the engine starts, the pinion gear overrun protects the armature from excessive speed until the switch is opened.
When the ignition switch is released from the START position, crank voltage is removed from the starter solenoid C1 terminal. Current flows from the motor contacts through both windings to ground at the end of the hold-in winding. However, the direction of the current flow through the pull-in winding is now in the opposite direction of the current flow when the winding was first energized.
The magnetic fields of the pull-in and hold-in windings now oppose one another. This action of the windings, along with the help of the return spring, cause the starter drive assembly to disengage and the solenoid switch contacts to open simultaneously. As soon as the contacts open, the starter motor is turned off.
Circuit Description
Moving the ignition switch to the START position sends a 12-volt signal to the engine control module (ECM) to command starting. Battery voltage also travels through the switch side of the Run/Crank relay then through the clutch switch, if equipped with manual transmission, and on through the coil side of the Starter relay and then to the ECM. The ECM receives class 2 information from the vehicle theft deterrent (VTD) and transmission control module (TCM) to verify that all parameters are met for starting. When all parameters are met the ECM grounds the control circuit of the Starter relay closing the switch providing battery voltage to the starter solenoid through a 30 A Maxi-Fuse.
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02-09-2015, 10:25 AM
#9
With EFI Live you should be able to disable the starter diagnostics and clutch interlock (i did in hptuners and it worked). From memory, both of those circuits are physically on the CPS.
02-09-2015, 12:23 PM
#10
I disabled the CPS and VATS in the tune and that didn't change anything. I also tried a Class II relearn and the CPS relearn with nothing happening. I went as far as to turn off all the stuff in the DVT to make it seem like it was on the dyno and nothing changed. I don't know what else to do. I ordered the hard part CPS. I guess I will replace that and see what happens. I would think that it is in the key some how but my display is registering that it is key two when I put it to ACC so I would assume that it is good. I wonder if something happened in the actual cylinder lock.
02-09-2015, 01:00 PM
#12
I got under there to check the switch and noticed it was spring loaded and slides up and down the master rod. On a hunch I slid it all the way up the rod and the car started. So am am up and running just totally confused. When it is all the way down, metal to metal the car is dead. Pull it up some and the car starts.
02-09-2015, 01:07 PM
#15
Sorry missed last post.
Everything on the CPS can be disabled via the tune. However, I disabled the clutch interlock and then jumpered across the other circuit. I drove the car like that for months with no issues. Having said all of that I have a working CPS without the small plastic plate that keeps it on the CMC shaft. If you want/need it you can have it.
I got under there to check the switch and noticed it was spring loaded and slides up and down the master rod. On a hunch I slid it all the way up the rod and the car started. So am am up and running just totally confused. When it is all the way down, metal to metal the car is dead. Pull it up some and the car starts.
Id go ^^^ that route
02-09-2015, 03:57 PM
#17
Thanks, I may take you up on that.
I took it on its maiden voyage and it did really well. Got to work on the tune some but that is to be expected with everything I changed. I took a stab at what a 427 with larger injectors was going to need in SD. The issue now is that my speedo, and digital read out don't work. EFI Live is not reading VSS either. Could the CPS be effecting that as well. Everything on the trans is connected. I am assuming the VSS is the rear sensor pointed at the ground on the drivers side?
I took it on its maiden voyage and it did really well. Got to work on the tune some but that is to be expected with everything I changed. I took a stab at what a 427 with larger injectors was going to need in SD. The issue now is that my speedo, and digital read out don't work. EFI Live is not reading VSS either. Could the CPS be effecting that as well. Everything on the trans is connected. I am assuming the VSS is the rear sensor pointed at the ground on the drivers side?
02-09-2015, 06:56 PM
#18
Figured out the speedo thing. Plugs were mixed. I thought they were all different like in the motor. I was wrong.
I just wanted to thank everyone who contributed to this thread. All of the posts were invaluable to figuring this thing out. Hopefully replacing the switch tomorrow will fix it. If not then I will bypass it.
I just wanted to thank everyone who contributed to this thread. All of the posts were invaluable to figuring this thing out. Hopefully replacing the switch tomorrow will fix it. If not then I will bypass it.
02-10-2015, 09:01 AM
#20
Figured out the speedo thing. Plugs were mixed. I thought they were all different like in the motor. I was wrong.
Hopefully replacing the switch tomorrow will fix it. If not then I will bypass it.
But GLAD YOU GOT IT RUNNING!!!!!!!!!!!