V2 tr6060 into V1
11-04-2015, 09:04 AM
#61
Well I didn't think it was necessary to begin with then LBAR made his post... LS1247 Thanks! I will very likely need a new tranny soon as mine is showing signs that failure is imminent. I appreciate the info provided in this thread as I never thought the shifting of the stock unit was very good to begin with (even with all of the band-aids applied). When I initially looked into this it was going to be a $4K investment for the Transzilla. I will also be on the lookout for a used 6060 for cheap to get the costs lower.
PS...I have a complete V1 t56 with shifter base and crossmember sitting here to take measurements off of.
Last edited by ls1247; 11-04-2015 at 09:12 AM.
11-04-2015, 12:40 PM
#62
Here's the money shot that shows the v2 shifter is simply an extension of the 6060 shift rail. Couldn't be more direct than that for a remote setup and this would be an undeniably huge improvement over the tinker toy setup the v1 has been cursed with.
I also posted pics showing what the v2 floorpan looks like as well as the fully installed v2 shifter. The floor pan doesn't look like its too far of a departure from the v1 setup and as the v1 shift boot attaches to the console (unlike the v2 boot), all we really need to do is get the handle in the right place and secure the box to the floor of the car. There's a lot of free space under the v1 console so I don't think this would be all that hard. Challenging yes, impossible, not by a long shot.
The shifter box appears to be made of aluminum so it shouldn't be too hard to weld on if the length of it needs to be changed.
Here's the shifter thread I lifted the pics out of if anyone cares to dive deeper.
http://www.ctsvowners.com/forum/5-tr...-solution.html
I also posted pics showing what the v2 floorpan looks like as well as the fully installed v2 shifter. The floor pan doesn't look like its too far of a departure from the v1 setup and as the v1 shift boot attaches to the console (unlike the v2 boot), all we really need to do is get the handle in the right place and secure the box to the floor of the car. There's a lot of free space under the v1 console so I don't think this would be all that hard. Challenging yes, impossible, not by a long shot.
The shifter box appears to be made of aluminum so it shouldn't be too hard to weld on if the length of it needs to be changed.
Here's the shifter thread I lifted the pics out of if anyone cares to dive deeper.
http://www.ctsvowners.com/forum/5-tr...-solution.html
Last edited by ls1247; 11-04-2015 at 12:48 PM.
11-04-2015, 12:45 PM
#63
I also got lucky and found some pics of a v2 m6 trans crossmember. As it appears to be made of aluminum, that will pretty much eliminate any "cut and weld" hybrid crossmembers so the v1 crossmember will take a good bit of work to function in this application.
Unless of course the v2 crossmember just happens to bolt up to the the v1 floorpan but I'm not that lucky....
Unless of course the v2 crossmember just happens to bolt up to the the v1 floorpan but I'm not that lucky....
11-04-2015, 12:54 PM
#64
So what kind of questions is this leaving?
Total driveshaft length....the DSS carbon 1 piece shaft I have should be easy enough to shorten if that's what it needs, dss makes a v2 driveshaft so they know what the adapter needs to look like and if the driveshaft is too short, they could probably make the adapter larger to make up the additional length.
Electronics...god only knows
Exhaust...whoever did the camaro 6060 swap said they had to mod the exhaust for the 6060 so I guess I'd be counting on that.
Total driveshaft length....the DSS carbon 1 piece shaft I have should be easy enough to shorten if that's what it needs, dss makes a v2 driveshaft so they know what the adapter needs to look like and if the driveshaft is too short, they could probably make the adapter larger to make up the additional length.
Electronics...god only knows
Exhaust...whoever did the camaro 6060 swap said they had to mod the exhaust for the 6060 so I guess I'd be counting on that.
11-05-2015, 09:35 AM
#65
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I think the exhasut mod for the 6060 was only because it was a full camaro boltin. If it were a change to what RPM offers with a bolt on bellhousing then it shouldnt have tochange, as the driveshaft is no shorter and the shifter is reused, although i understand the desire to get away from the v1 shifter.
11-06-2015, 09:43 AM
#67
To help the swap go easier, I went shopping for a different transmission mount and discovered that, of course, the v2 transmission uses a one off mount which means a Camaro, Challenger, Mustang etc. mount won't help me any. In the process, I stumbled across this....
http://www.brphotrods.com/products/T...etc/index.html
which, based on how its shaped, should be pretty easy to adapt to if it isn't too tall. Kind of a small looking mount but I'm guessing they've had good luck with it.
If you read closely, they are referring to the v2 transmission as the "high torque" MG9 transmission and as it turns out, the high tourque version of the 6060s (the v2, zr1 and zl1 from GM, maybe other manufacuturers use it, don't know) has a host of "presumed" upgrades over the standard 6060 including needle bearings instead of bushings for the shift shaft to operate against, a beefier tail housing, an additional bearing on the main shaft and a bunch of other stuff that could be fluff for all I know.
Of all these, the needle bearings on the shift shaft would have the most benefit I'd guess.
Beyond this, the MG9 uses an 8 bolt flywheel flange instead of the 6 bolt found on other LS cranks. Is this flywheel the same size as the 6 bolt flywheel? Thinking so but its still a question I need a definite answer for.
Also, the v2 uses a dual mass flywheel so there's the installed clutch depth questions to be answered and of all the unknowns, this one turns me off the most because the 6060 weights in at a portly 145lbs! I don't have a lift to work off of so the thought of unzipping this thing 5 times to figure this out is almost suicidal.
Edit, the 6 bolt flange of the ls6 crank pretty much means I can't use any tried and trued v2 clutch options which means I'm shopping for a clutch, unless of course I install this trans as part of an engine upgrade and I bump up to an 8 bolt crank. But naturally using an 8 bolt crank in a GenIII car means reluctor wheel swapping....holy crap.
I posted a thread over in the manual trans forum to try and get more info on this but as of yet, nothing but crickets....
https://ls1tech.com/forums/manual-tr...ue-tr6060.html
More info means more questions....
http://www.brphotrods.com/products/T...etc/index.html
which, based on how its shaped, should be pretty easy to adapt to if it isn't too tall. Kind of a small looking mount but I'm guessing they've had good luck with it.
If you read closely, they are referring to the v2 transmission as the "high torque" MG9 transmission and as it turns out, the high tourque version of the 6060s (the v2, zr1 and zl1 from GM, maybe other manufacuturers use it, don't know) has a host of "presumed" upgrades over the standard 6060 including needle bearings instead of bushings for the shift shaft to operate against, a beefier tail housing, an additional bearing on the main shaft and a bunch of other stuff that could be fluff for all I know.
Of all these, the needle bearings on the shift shaft would have the most benefit I'd guess.
Beyond this, the MG9 uses an 8 bolt flywheel flange instead of the 6 bolt found on other LS cranks. Is this flywheel the same size as the 6 bolt flywheel? Thinking so but its still a question I need a definite answer for.
Also, the v2 uses a dual mass flywheel so there's the installed clutch depth questions to be answered and of all the unknowns, this one turns me off the most because the 6060 weights in at a portly 145lbs! I don't have a lift to work off of so the thought of unzipping this thing 5 times to figure this out is almost suicidal.
Edit, the 6 bolt flange of the ls6 crank pretty much means I can't use any tried and trued v2 clutch options which means I'm shopping for a clutch, unless of course I install this trans as part of an engine upgrade and I bump up to an 8 bolt crank. But naturally using an 8 bolt crank in a GenIII car means reluctor wheel swapping....holy crap.
I posted a thread over in the manual trans forum to try and get more info on this but as of yet, nothing but crickets....
https://ls1tech.com/forums/manual-tr...ue-tr6060.html
More info means more questions....
Last edited by ls1247; 11-06-2015 at 10:33 AM.
11-06-2015, 01:35 PM
#68
I'm guessing that as the v2 uses a twin disc clutch, it would probably mean it would make sense to use the same clutch on my ls6 to make this swap as easy to predict as possible. Looks like Tick makes the clutch that might be needed but damn its pricey....6 bolt flywheel drilled for ls9 twin disc...
http://www.tickperformance.com/katec...-capacity-800/
Anybody have experience with this clutch or know whether or not I could use the ls7 clutch I've already got on the v2 6060??? Need help here....
Then we throw the added thickness of the dual mass.....this is going downhill fast.
http://www.tickperformance.com/katec...-capacity-800/
Anybody have experience with this clutch or know whether or not I could use the ls7 clutch I've already got on the v2 6060??? Need help here....
Then we throw the added thickness of the dual mass.....this is going downhill fast.
11-06-2015, 08:50 PM
#69
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It's more about money and getting the most out of it than what your version of "car guy" logic is.
Do you think it's possible that I nurse what i have because spending 3k on a car as old as mine is a little hard to swallow? Think its possible ill be upgrading the old ls6 at some point and may actually need the added capacity of the 6060? Think its a possibility that I may actually want to beat on this car someday instead of treating it like a car with 238k miles on it?
Just so you know, this is what "car guy" logic is.
If you bothered to read the thread, you'd have learned that I missed an opportunity to buy a v2 6060 for $1500 on eBay. Is it possible that I could get $1200 out off my old t56 and swap that 6060 in the car and come out for less than a grand on the deal with just a little skill and patience? Beyond that, why spend 3k upgrading a t56 when I can buy a brand new 6060 for less than that and, if the swap isn't crazy hard, get it in the car and realize the presumed benefits of the v2 6060 for less money and still have the old t56 to sell to guys who don't understand "car logic".
The object of this thread is to figure out just how possible these scenarios are because frankly, I don't know and apparently no one else does either.
Do you think it's possible that I nurse what i have because spending 3k on a car as old as mine is a little hard to swallow? Think its possible ill be upgrading the old ls6 at some point and may actually need the added capacity of the 6060? Think its a possibility that I may actually want to beat on this car someday instead of treating it like a car with 238k miles on it?
Just so you know, this is what "car guy" logic is.
If you bothered to read the thread, you'd have learned that I missed an opportunity to buy a v2 6060 for $1500 on eBay. Is it possible that I could get $1200 out off my old t56 and swap that 6060 in the car and come out for less than a grand on the deal with just a little skill and patience? Beyond that, why spend 3k upgrading a t56 when I can buy a brand new 6060 for less than that and, if the swap isn't crazy hard, get it in the car and realize the presumed benefits of the v2 6060 for less money and still have the old t56 to sell to guys who don't understand "car logic".
The object of this thread is to figure out just how possible these scenarios are because frankly, I don't know and apparently no one else does either.
Since you couldn't take some humor I'm going to be more serious. So NOW you're planning on maybe building the car, which you also admit is tough to swallow spending 3k on? That is a conflicting statement.
People have put more miles on T56's than you have driving them how they want to. I'm nearing 200,000 miles and I don't think twice about not lifting for shifts, and I haven't for years. If it's not behaving strangely, carry on as you wish.
By the way, not sure why you think it will cost 3k to rebuild a T56. In 60 seconds of Googling I found out Tick Performance, a site sponsor, will provide you a well re-built T56 for $1700 including shipping, and one rated for 700RWTQ for $2300. I bet if you looked around there is a guy somewhere who would charge you $1000 cash for a bench rebuild, which is probably all you will ever need, maybes excluded.
You have a whole thread centered around modifying a V2 driveshaft to bolt in, which means you're keeping your stock diff, which then means you aren't going to remove the only weak link in your drive-train, so plan on babying that T6060 around until you're ready to eat a 8.8 upgrade, now that is hard to swallow. You'll almost have spent the value of your car! Your plan is to waste more time, money and effort for a unnecessary upgrade. That is car guy logic for sure, which by the way was not an insult.
Last edited by Lbar; 11-06-2015 at 09:00 PM.
11-07-2015, 08:57 AM
#70
By the way, not sure why you think it will cost 3k to rebuild a T56. In 60 seconds of Googling I found out Tick Performance, a site sponsor, will provide you a well re-built T56 for $1700 including shipping, and one rated for 700RWTQ for $2300. I bet if you looked around there is a guy somewhere who would charge you $1000 cash for a bench rebuild, which is probably all you will ever need, maybes excluded.
You have a whole thread centered around modifying a V2 driveshaft to bolt in, which means you're keeping your stock diff, which then means you aren't going to remove the only weak link in your drive-train, so plan on babying that T6060 around until you're ready to eat a 8.8 upgrade, now that is hard to swallow. You'll almost have spent the value of your car! Your plan is to waste more time, money and effort for a unnecessary upgrade. That is car guy logic for sure, which by the way was not an insult.
I believe a v2 6060 upgrade could transform this car...it transformed the v2 so why wouldn't it. I'm certain that if I take my time, I can gather up the parts pretty reasonably and, if I incorporate the swap with an inevitable engine overhaul, it shouldn't be too difficult to pull off.
So now I'm looking at spending 12k on my v1 (engine and trans) but if it performs at a v2 level, it COULD make sense versus selling off what I have for 10k or so, spending 30k+ to get into an m6 v2 and then still have a car that has miles on it...yes, this is conflicting stuff because I don't need and probably wouldn't appreciate the whistle and bells of the v2 and I know how to work on my v1 which I take some pleasure in because I'm and addict.
To move this swap any further, I may have to find a used LSA flywheel and clutch assembly to measure off of to get an idea about the installed depth of those parts compared to the v1.
While I was hoping the v2 6060 might make an affordable "plug and play" service replacement for the t56, it isn't going to be that easy but in never hurts to ask. The swap is doable and based on the info dug up here, I think it makes sense for those of us that can't justify moving into a v2.
11-07-2015, 09:58 AM
#71
Have someone cut off the front of the 6060 as the bell housing and make custom bolt-on locations, haha. As for the age-old debate of pouring more money into a car vs. upgrading, if you say you won't appreciate the entertainment system or refinement of the V2, then I support your overhaul. For me, I'd really like a nicer entertainment system and a smaller steering wheel, just to name a couple annoyances. Car is paid off in 3 years, and I'm dumping it, so it won't get a whole lot more upgrades other than maybe wheels and refreshing my motor if it gets worse.
11-07-2015, 11:08 AM
#72
Never heard the smaller steering wheel thing before...do tell.
After years in the music and motorcycle business, I very rarely turn the stereo up anymore. Trying to preserve what little hearing i have left as my ears ring about all the time. Guess I won't be cranking Tool at my 60th.
After years in the music and motorcycle business, I very rarely turn the stereo up anymore. Trying to preserve what little hearing i have left as my ears ring about all the time. Guess I won't be cranking Tool at my 60th.
11-07-2015, 11:28 AM
#73
The V1 steering wheel is bus-sized. Whenever I drive my wife's Mazda3 I think "damn, this would be a nice size." It's nit-picky, but others have expressed the same feeling. As for the stereo, I wouldn't be as annoyed if it had a fuggin USB slot or something. I wired up the XM input with a stereo jack, but it's just not the same. It's all just really really dated, but I refuse to give up the DIC, so I'll just live with it.
11-07-2015, 12:10 PM
#74
As an edit to some of the above....
Incorporating the swap into and engine overhaul could make this substantially easier as it allows the installation of the LSA crankshaft which seems to be a reasonable crankshaft upgrade for not so stupid dollars. The 8 bolt flywheel flange would allow the use of a v2 twin disc without having to worry so much about installed depths, shimming, etc....
For now, I'll look towards collecting parts.
Incorporating the swap into and engine overhaul could make this substantially easier as it allows the installation of the LSA crankshaft which seems to be a reasonable crankshaft upgrade for not so stupid dollars. The 8 bolt flywheel flange would allow the use of a v2 twin disc without having to worry so much about installed depths, shimming, etc....
For now, I'll look towards collecting parts.
11-07-2015, 04:27 PM
#75
I was able to get some rough dimensions from another site and the v2 6060 is 3 inches longer than the t56 and the shifter is an inch further back. Obviously this means shortening the driveshaft (which isn't a bad thing on this car) and the shifter assembly. I think its safe to say the crossmember won't work either but these mods shouldn't be too awfully hard to pull off.
11-07-2015, 04:53 PM
#78
There might not be enough meat on the v2 shift rod/shift rail to take an inch out of it. This swap may ultimately require moving the shift opening back a little and then using a shifter like this one with the handle turned to fit in the v1 console.