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Post 92 suggests the 550rwhp is achievable with an M6 car if you are willing to spend lots of time and money with the right folks. Possible? Yes. Likely/common? No. If you even get close, I'd like a ride.
I have a lot of respect for what Pat and Tony do for/with LS.
But this one is less impressive to me. Sure, they proved out old technology(port style). And those are some nice heads...but spendy. AFRs start off at least not cheap and then they are more once Tony tweaks them.
Here is what is interesting to me. Take that RX7. Let's say auto vs. stick and the 5% diff they are in the same neighborhood power-wise. Look at the cam for the two setups:
AFR/cathedral port:
"We used a fairly mild 231/231 .617/.617" 114LSA +2 advance Comp LSL cam"
L92 heads:
"222/230 .597/.600" 114LSA +2 Patrick G custom camshaft ground with EPS lobes"
Less cam made similar power with the L92 heads on the other combo. That's interesting to me and significant I think. Less cam almost always gives you better drivability. And I don't fuss about drivability issues normally; but I see that as opportunity to perhaps go wilder, make more power, and still be able to drive the thing around. L92s come with a heavy intake valve, too. Not sure how much that might be affecting power production at higher RPMs.
I think that patient had other problems, at least mismatch of combo. 397RWHP with some really $$ bolt-ons? Again, it's the SMALL *** L76 cam.
Again, Tony and Pat did great work there but did they really pick up 100HP with those heads? No. That combo could have been optimized a lot better before swapping to the AFR heads..but then it wouldn't tell as juicy of a story. Look at my buddy Brad in basically the same car that made 49x with a 6.2 with only headers, valve springs, cam, tune, through an auto. That .2L didn't make THAT much difference. Also the owner of that thing puts a FAST 102 and no cam? Come on...
Closing thoughts: those threads are all fairly old. This last one right at 6 years old. I talked to one of the best cam designers around just yesterday and he lamented that the LS3/L92 ports were a learning curve and only in the last few years did folks really learn how to wring every bit of power out of them. Sounded like they are still learning a bit, actually.
I'm going to stop ranting now as it is beer time. At the end of the day, we all pick a hole to throw our money and dicks in and hope that our hole goes "bang" and "vroom" a little better than the other guys' did. May your hole not disappoint.
You are right, still pretty early in the learning curve from a performance standpoint. Easy to get caught up in the "no cam??" attitude. After all, the bang for the buck, the power, the sound, matched with the "while I'm in there" is too much for most. I've considered it but with Pat, it made sense. He is a cam spec guy so trying to reduce the variables is smart. In the end, he still through several mods at once at it and tuned. True science is expensive and time consuming and most of us don't have the patience or the budget for it. Seeing how high you can take it while maintaining stock reliability (i.e. not changing springs as a maintenance item), will appeal to a few. I like how much he did on that tiny stock cam. Lots of ways to put more air through the pump, right? I can't tell you how many guys I've seen drop a big nasty cam in a car and then been unable to unwilling to deal with it properly or keep it afterwards. LMR hit mine pretty well and I miss it. I had a cam and headers LS3 put down 465/435 through a y-pipe over 6 years ago and it drove awesome.
490 through an auto is pretty impressive, whose dyno was that on? I'm drinking wine with dinner but have a beer for me, wouldja? I can ALWAYS count on one of those holes, the other is more hit and miss...
That was at Stang-Hi here in Baton Rouge. Cody is known for and mostly sticks to Mustangs and Fords but he always tuned Brad's Cobra so did it for him. Dynojet I believe.
Also elected this for at least my first two regular oil changes..Driven/Gibbs LS30. Normally about $11-$12/qt. so was quite tickled to find it for $7.69 with no shipping or tax? Dang it I'm such a sucker for a deal. Ordering another hundred bucks worth before the rest catch on.
Making a little more progress. Mains look to be on the larger end of acceptable. Crank finally back in the block, plastigage, crushed plastigage. Got a decent-looking Pro-Form rod press. Found my piston ring squaring tool with built-in stop over at Home Depot.
Hey, I never thanked you for the tip on oiling the cylinder walls before starting the engine. That was solid advice. Since you're in the middle of a rebuild, I figured you'd be interested in this guy:
The starting price is deceptively cheap--they really get you on the accessories. Mine is coming this week and I should be able to try it on Friday. I had to delay putting the V1 back on the road because my thinner head gaskets added too much lifter preload. Had to order one size shorter pushrods (Comp 7955-16 - 7.400") and they won't be here until Thursday. Since I haven't cranked the engine in about 3.5 weeks, I figured it'd be a great opportunity to try out the primer.
If you're a total cheap *** like me, you can use the adapter shown above(hint they are on the 09 + V). I just threaded in a hose adapter then used a hand pump garden sprayer. Purchased the brass fitting for .89 and the 2 gallon garden sprayer at my local hardware for 10.99.
Filled the sprayer up with 6 quarts of oil, pumped it up and drank beer while the oil filled the motor. Took an hour or so, but eventually it had oil running out the rocker arms.
Once I saw oil running out of every rocker I released the pressure slowly on the sprayer. Unthreaded the brass fitting, then capped it off with a plug. This part was a little messy. Could be made easier with a one way valve that could just be left in place for use later.
Worked great, had instant pressure on first fire and everything was already pre oil that way.
Fuzz, I like that product for a hundred bones. Steve, I like yours, too. I think I may go for the commercial product since I have a few more to build. On the Jeep, with all plugs out, I had good pressure within about 45 seconds. The started runs so much faster with no compression load. But this has been on my list to acquire for a long time. Both?
Weighed 8 GM LS2 bare pistons, 8 GM L92 loaded(rings and pins) pistons, 8 pins. Scary how close the weights are. This lends creedence to the idea that GM balances their cranks and then weight-controls the attached parts. So in this set, I think I could mix and match all day and not get into too much trouble.
Those L92 pistons are pretty typical at about ±2 grams. If you want to maximize the lifetime and performance of your rotating assembly, I highly recommend getting your crank balanced by a professional using a CWT balancing machine (e.g. ACT in Georgia).
Many articles (including the ones below) claim that race engines best balanced to less than 0.2 oz-inch for crankshafts and a little less than ±0.1 grams per piston and connecting rod, but you can do better if you find the right shop and pay the right price.
Nope but will for sure in the next several days. Interested now.
Originally Posted by FuzzyLog1c
Those L92 pistons are pretty typical at about ±2 grams. If you want to maximize the lifetime and performance of your rotating assembly, I highly recommend getting your crank balanced by a professional using a CWT balancing machine (e.g.
Many articles (including the ones below) claim that race engines best balanced to less than 0.2 oz-inch for crankshafts and a little less than ±0.1 grams per piston and connecting rod, but you can do better if you find the right shop and pay the right price.
I was already sold but hadn't gotten a chance to post it yet. I was headed for $100-$150 for the balancing of the flywheel and clutch. After going by and talking face-to-face with Paul @ Greenlee Engines, it became apparent that it wasn't much more to balance the whole thing. So for $125 more he's now got the rods, pistons, pins, rings, clips, crank, balancer, flywheel, clutch. Going to balance it out to 10K RPM. Couldn't pass it up. I caved and handed him the rods and ARP rod bolts. About $100 to resize the rods. So $225 more and this thing should be smooth as glass.
Once I have one of my projects actually moving and making noise again, I'll probably experiment more with maintaining factory balance and rolling the dice on not re-sizing the rods. IDK. Just wasn't a bunch of money.
Greenlee is one of those places I remember going a few times as a kid. My dad used to run with the original owner in the 60's and I thoroughly enjoyed talking shop with Paul. Yesterday he showed me his DIY EDM(for those that aren't Fuzzy, that's Electrical Discharge Machine and basically disintegrates metal with an electrode) that he built in an old PC case. I'm kinda looking forward to the next time I break a tap off in something so I can go play.
Hasn't changed as long as I've been alive..to top it off, my dad owned a pest control business most of my life and my brother and I spent countless hours mixing and matching engines, trans, etc. on a fleet of old Isuzu pickups. So it's a bit nostalgic that they keep one as a shop truck. Those things were 1.2L with a one-barrel carb, but light with a 5-speed stick and 4.10s stock, they were actually kinda fun. Like a go-cart err...go-truck.
Man... with all you're doing, I think you're going to love this car once it's all together. Can't wait to read some impressions. Are you still rocking that tent?
I expect it will be be mostly or all positive. I generally have a pretty high tolerance for NVH so not so worried about that and almost everything going on the vehicle improves performance in some way. I am crossing my fingers that I can exercise patience in the home stretch. We're heading for somewhat cooler weather(still seeing high nineties and humid here) so that should help.
Sadly(I know my neighbors miss it) the wind caught it one day, ripped the bricks off I had wired to the legs, and blew it down to the end of my road into a drainage canal. It was dry at the time, but the frame was destroyed. The tent cover material was only partially scraped up so I use that in the old shop to keep random/wandering leaks from wetting my assembly area when I am not there. So I suppose it is still kinda with us but not beautifying my driveway any longer.
I have a confession to make, guys. After all my belly-aching about the price, I bought a FAST 102. All the intakes that will fit under the dang hood peak about 6500 and I am committed to power 7K+. So here is what changed it..the price still smarts a bit but I was able to find a complete intake with the "high HP" runners already in it. This should ove peak HP up a grand or so. The "race" runners pique my interest and I may grab a set of those later to test but for now, the mid-length(grey) runners seem to be as close as I can get to a Hi-Ram and still wear a hood: http://www.fuelairspark.com/fas/fast...unner-sethtml/
Thanks! I hope it performs. It could look like a dang mail box if it makes power.
I was really set on LS3 or ported LS3 but after talking to the a couple of the top intake porters and having them both tell me that there was nothing to be done to move peak power of the stock intake above 6500, I was set on this path. If I ever get around to the really big bore short stroke build with even more RPM, I can grab the even shorter runners.
09-09-2016, 04:53 PM
