Brake Bleeding Troubles
11-17-2012, 07:44 AM
#1
Brake Bleeding Troubles I installed the Goodridge stainless steel brake line kit earlier this summer. Unfortunately, I let the fluid reservoir run dry and probably introduced some air into the ABS system. Yesterday, I took the car down to MJ Sullivan to have them use a Tech 2 to purge any air from the system and bleed the brakes.
While the pedal feel is slightly better, I can still put the pedal to the floor when the car is at idle or parked. Is that normal, and if not, do you think I should bring the car back and demand that they do it again, plus refund the cost of the two bottles of Super Blue Dot 4 that they wasted?
Thanks!
While the pedal feel is slightly better, I can still put the pedal to the floor when the car is at idle or parked. Is that normal, and if not, do you think I should bring the car back and demand that they do it again, plus refund the cost of the two bottles of Super Blue Dot 4 that they wasted?
Thanks!
11-17-2012, 09:05 AM
#4
TECH Fanatic
If your pedal is going to the floor then you have serious issue's. Air being introduced into the ABS has never been an issue (not in my case anyhow) and I was never a fan of using the Tech II to assist in bleeding. There aren't places in the ABS unit for air to hide, if that makes sense, as the ABS unit is placed in series between the master cylinder and the calipers.
Here is the problem...if you went to a shop and directed them to bleed the brakes using your fluid and a Tech II, and that is what they did, you got what you paid for and are entitled to nothing. If you would have had them diagnose a "soft pedal", or pedal going to the floor then that would be a different matter entirely.
Whenever I do brake work, I usually gravity bleed the system first, followed by pressure bleeding, followed with a test drive where I activate the ABS by making panic stops. If the pedal is soft, I bleed the system again. In all honestly, if air was able to get trapped in the ABS, simply spinning the pump under no pedal pressure probably wouldn't do much good. I think that the motor spinning under pressure would be more likely to remove trapped air.
If you pedal is going to the floor, that is usually indicative of bad seals or a leak in the system. Are you sure that no other type of fluid was introduced into the system?
Hope this made sense...the percocet is starting to wearing off again....
Here is the problem...if you went to a shop and directed them to bleed the brakes using your fluid and a Tech II, and that is what they did, you got what you paid for and are entitled to nothing. If you would have had them diagnose a "soft pedal", or pedal going to the floor then that would be a different matter entirely.
Whenever I do brake work, I usually gravity bleed the system first, followed by pressure bleeding, followed with a test drive where I activate the ABS by making panic stops. If the pedal is soft, I bleed the system again. In all honestly, if air was able to get trapped in the ABS, simply spinning the pump under no pedal pressure probably wouldn't do much good. I think that the motor spinning under pressure would be more likely to remove trapped air.
If you pedal is going to the floor, that is usually indicative of bad seals or a leak in the system. Are you sure that no other type of fluid was introduced into the system?
Hope this made sense...the percocet is starting to wearing off again....
11-17-2012, 12:25 PM
#7
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If your pedal is going to the floor then you have serious issue's. Air being introduced into the ABS has never been an issue (not in my case anyhow) and I was never a fan of using the Tech II to assist in bleeding. There aren't places in the ABS unit for air to hide, if that makes sense, as the ABS unit is placed in series between the master cylinder and the calipers.
Here is the problem...if you went to a shop and directed them to bleed the brakes using your fluid and a Tech II, and that is what they did, you got what you paid for and are entitled to nothing. If you would have had them diagnose a "soft pedal", or pedal going to the floor then that would be a different matter entirely.
Whenever I do brake work, I usually gravity bleed the system first, followed by pressure bleeding, followed with a test drive where I activate the ABS by making panic stops. If the pedal is soft, I bleed the system again. In all honestly, if air was able to get trapped in the ABS, simply spinning the pump under no pedal pressure probably wouldn't do much good. I think that the motor spinning under pressure would be more likely to remove trapped air.
If you pedal is going to the floor, that is usually indicative of bad seals or a leak in the system. Are you sure that no other type of fluid was introduced into the system?
Hope this made sense...the percocet is starting to wearing off again....
Here is the problem...if you went to a shop and directed them to bleed the brakes using your fluid and a Tech II, and that is what they did, you got what you paid for and are entitled to nothing. If you would have had them diagnose a "soft pedal", or pedal going to the floor then that would be a different matter entirely.
Whenever I do brake work, I usually gravity bleed the system first, followed by pressure bleeding, followed with a test drive where I activate the ABS by making panic stops. If the pedal is soft, I bleed the system again. In all honestly, if air was able to get trapped in the ABS, simply spinning the pump under no pedal pressure probably wouldn't do much good. I think that the motor spinning under pressure would be more likely to remove trapped air.
If you pedal is going to the floor, that is usually indicative of bad seals or a leak in the system. Are you sure that no other type of fluid was introduced into the system?
Hope this made sense...the percocet is starting to wearing off again....
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11-17-2012, 12:41 PM
#8
I keep my engine bay really clean. If there were any leaks in the system there, I would've found them. Unless you're suggesting that the seals in the master are shot. In that case, I'm probably better off buying a new master, right?
Also, when I did my brake lines, I had all four wheels removed so that I could see all four connection interfaces. I gravity bled the system, pressure bled the system, then attached a MityVac to each bleeder valve individually and beat on the brake pedal to eliminate all of bubbles that would come out. It was a good thing I did that, because I was able to immediately find a small leak at the passenger side front inlet line. After I tightened it down and cleaner up the area, however, there were no further leaks and the pedal still felt squishy.
Also, when I did my brake lines, I had all four wheels removed so that I could see all four connection interfaces. I gravity bled the system, pressure bled the system, then attached a MityVac to each bleeder valve individually and beat on the brake pedal to eliminate all of bubbles that would come out. It was a good thing I did that, because I was able to immediately find a small leak at the passenger side front inlet line. After I tightened it down and cleaner up the area, however, there were no further leaks and the pedal still felt squishy.
11-17-2012, 12:51 PM
#9
I keep my engine bay really clean. If there were any leaks in the system there, I would've found them. Unless you're suggesting that the seals in the master are shot. In that case, I'm probably better off buying a new master, right?
Also, when I did my brake lines, I had all four wheels removed so that I could see all four connection interfaces. I gravity bled the system, pressure bled the system, then attached a MityVac to each bleeder valve individually and beat on the brake pedal to eliminate all of bubbles that would come out. It was a good thing I did that, because I was able to immediately find a small leak at the passenger side front inlet line. After I tightened it down and cleaner up the area, however, there were no further leaks and the pedal still felt squishy.
Also, when I did my brake lines, I had all four wheels removed so that I could see all four connection interfaces. I gravity bled the system, pressure bled the system, then attached a MityVac to each bleeder valve individually and beat on the brake pedal to eliminate all of bubbles that would come out. It was a good thing I did that, because I was able to immediately find a small leak at the passenger side front inlet line. After I tightened it down and cleaner up the area, however, there were no further leaks and the pedal still felt squishy.
I used a MOTIVE brake bleeder.
Just opened up the bleed screw and closed it when the fluid color changed (used blue fluid).
11-17-2012, 01:01 PM
#10
TECH Fanatic
I have owned the pneumatic brake bleeder for quite sometime now, and have never found it to be of use bleeding anything. It is very effective at collecting all the old fluid from the master cyl before bleeding though.
Fuzzy - yeah, I was referring to the Master cyl seals. Is the seal located under your master cyl cap distorted/swollen? If not, I would pump the brakes several times (engine off) and see if the pedal still falls to the floor...if it does, you're likely dealing with master cylinder. If the pedal is pretty solid, I'd take it out and find a puddle or gravel and get the ABS to activate a few times, then pressure bleed it again.
Either way, try to avoid using the vacuum bleeder.
Fuzzy - yeah, I was referring to the Master cyl seals. Is the seal located under your master cyl cap distorted/swollen? If not, I would pump the brakes several times (engine off) and see if the pedal still falls to the floor...if it does, you're likely dealing with master cylinder. If the pedal is pretty solid, I'd take it out and find a puddle or gravel and get the ABS to activate a few times, then pressure bleed it again.
Either way, try to avoid using the vacuum bleeder.
11-17-2012, 02:25 PM
#12
It is beating on the pedal either brake or clutch that I don't like.
That makes any trapped air even harder to get out.
http://www.v8archie.com/arch4.htm
Last edited by heavymetals; 11-17-2012 at 02:33 PM.
11-18-2012, 03:04 PM
#13
Fuzzy - yeah, I was referring to the Master cyl seals. Is the seal located under your master cyl cap distorted/swollen? If not, I would pump the brakes several times (engine off) and see if the pedal still falls to the floor...if it does, you're likely dealing with master cylinder. If the pedal is pretty solid, I'd take it out and find a puddle or gravel and get the ABS to activate a few times, then pressure bleed it again.
Either way, try to avoid using the vacuum bleeder.
Either way, try to avoid using the vacuum bleeder.
By the way, I should mention that I bench bled this thing earlier this summer and it didn't do squat.
11-18-2012, 04:15 PM
#14
TECH Fanatic
No, that is normal. If you had any type of contamination, you would know right away as the rubber under the cap would swell to 5x its original size.
The vacuum bleeding tool for the brakes is only half of what was originally intended...there used to be /should be a pressure vessel that pressurizes the system from the master cylinder, this is how the "vacuum bleeders" originally worked way back when. The pressure vessel was expensive and messy (imagine brake fluid spraying everywhere when the seal slipped) so the vacuum portion is what stayed on the market.
I advise against vacuum bleeding b/c the system was not designed for this, and will almost always require follow up by pressure bleeding the brakes. How many people would prime a fuel system by vacuuming the fuel rail?
There is a right way and a wrong way to do things, and without the pressure vessel, simply using vacuum is not the correct way to do this.
The vacuum bleeding tool for the brakes is only half of what was originally intended...there used to be /should be a pressure vessel that pressurizes the system from the master cylinder, this is how the "vacuum bleeders" originally worked way back when. The pressure vessel was expensive and messy (imagine brake fluid spraying everywhere when the seal slipped) so the vacuum portion is what stayed on the market.
I advise against vacuum bleeding b/c the system was not designed for this, and will almost always require follow up by pressure bleeding the brakes. How many people would prime a fuel system by vacuuming the fuel rail?
There is a right way and a wrong way to do things, and without the pressure vessel, simply using vacuum is not the correct way to do this.
Last edited by DMM; 11-18-2012 at 09:24 PM.
11-18-2012, 04:20 PM
#16
So, based on the research I've done, it seems like I might have a bad brake master. The pedal is initially firm, but under continuous pressure, it eventually falls to the floor. Since there are no leaks anywhere else, the seals internal to the master must be bad, right?
If correct, it seems like I have several options:
1. Buy a used master from a wrecked CTS-V for about $40.
2. Buy a rebuild kit for about $60. Might be a hard operation to do...don't know.
3. Buy a new or aftermarket master.
If correct, it seems like I have several options:
1. Buy a used master from a wrecked CTS-V for about $40.
2. Buy a rebuild kit for about $60. Might be a hard operation to do...don't know.
3. Buy a new or aftermarket master.
11-18-2012, 04:24 PM
#17
I'll check again, but I'm not hopeful. I did a thorough check when I installed the brake lines and found one fitting that wasn't tightened sufficiently. Nothing since then. However, the problem has been present ever since the installation. I almost wish I didn't spring for the lines, but I'm sure I'll be pleased when the problem is resolved.
11-18-2012, 05:54 PM
#20
TECH Fanatic
So, based on the research I've done, it seems like I might have a bad brake master. The pedal is initially firm, but under continuous pressure, it eventually falls to the floor. Since there are no leaks anywhere else, the seals internal to the master must be bad, right?
Make sure you bench bleed the master, and then flush the rest of the system when you bleed it after install.
Have you ruled out that your stainless steel lines aren't flexing?
Last edited by DMM; 11-18-2012 at 06:00 PM.
