Carb or EFI? Still can't make up my mind...
02-05-2011, 11:42 AM
#1
On The Tree
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 135
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Carb or EFI? Still can't make up my mind... Ok, I have been back and forth several times on which way to go for the induction on my LSx Chevelle conversion. I am not afraid of running the injection, but have also always loved the old school carbs. So, what do you guys think? I know this is a carb specific forum, but I think I could get some pros and cons here. I will give you my engine vehicle spec. Maybe that will help.
98 Camaro SS LS1 60K miles
Edelbrock A-body conversion step headers
3" exhaust with 3" Flowmasters
Muncie 21 close ratio 4 speed
GM 12 bolt rear with 4.10 gears and Moroso Brute posi
Which way would make the most HP and TQ as is?
If I planed to do a cam swap, and maybe a low HP shot of nO2, which set up would be better?
I was thinking of getting the Edelbrock Victor Jr LS1 intake, so would I need to get the MSD LS1 box that I can tune with my comp? Or the Edelbrock kit which uses the plug in chips? I know this is a lot of questions, but I am either going to order my harness, and PCM this weekend or the carb conversion.
Also, WHICH CARB???? If I go that route. It is a street car, but it will be taken to the strip a couple times a season. Thanks for the great forum.
Shawn
98 Camaro SS LS1 60K miles
Edelbrock A-body conversion step headers
3" exhaust with 3" Flowmasters
Muncie 21 close ratio 4 speed
GM 12 bolt rear with 4.10 gears and Moroso Brute posi
Which way would make the most HP and TQ as is?
If I planed to do a cam swap, and maybe a low HP shot of nO2, which set up would be better?
I was thinking of getting the Edelbrock Victor Jr LS1 intake, so would I need to get the MSD LS1 box that I can tune with my comp? Or the Edelbrock kit which uses the plug in chips? I know this is a lot of questions, but I am either going to order my harness, and PCM this weekend or the carb conversion.
Also, WHICH CARB???? If I go that route. It is a street car, but it will be taken to the strip a couple times a season. Thanks for the great forum.
Shawn
02-05-2011, 11:57 AM
#2
Ok, I have been back and forth several times on which way to go for the induction on my LSx Chevelle conversion. I am not afraid of running the injection, but have also always loved the old school carbs. So, what do you guys think? I know this is a carb specific forum, but I think I could get some pros and cons here. I will give you my engine vehicle spec. Maybe that will help.
98 Camaro SS LS1 60K miles
Edelbrock A-body conversion step headers
3" exhaust with 3" Flowmasters
Muncie 21 close ratio 4 speed
GM 12 bolt rear with 4.10 gears and Moroso Brute posi
Which way would make the most HP and TQ as is?
If I planed to do a cam swap, and maybe a low HP shot of nO2, which set up would be better?
I was thinking of getting the Edelbrock Victor Jr LS1 intake, so would I need to get the MSD LS1 box that I can tune with my comp? Or the Edelbrock kit which uses the plug in chips? I know this is a lot of questions, but I am either going to order my harness, and PCM this weekend or the carb conversion.
Also, WHICH CARB???? If I go that route. It is a street car, but it will be taken to the strip a couple times a season. Thanks for the great forum.
Shawn
98 Camaro SS LS1 60K miles
Edelbrock A-body conversion step headers
3" exhaust with 3" Flowmasters
Muncie 21 close ratio 4 speed
GM 12 bolt rear with 4.10 gears and Moroso Brute posi
Which way would make the most HP and TQ as is?
If I planed to do a cam swap, and maybe a low HP shot of nO2, which set up would be better?
I was thinking of getting the Edelbrock Victor Jr LS1 intake, so would I need to get the MSD LS1 box that I can tune with my comp? Or the Edelbrock kit which uses the plug in chips? I know this is a lot of questions, but I am either going to order my harness, and PCM this weekend or the carb conversion.
Also, WHICH CARB???? If I go that route. It is a street car, but it will be taken to the strip a couple times a season. Thanks for the great forum.
Shawn
02-05-2011, 01:20 PM
#3
On The Tree
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 135
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I guess I should have been more specific on my vehicle. Its a 1970 Chevelle SS. So no, I do not have to cut my cowl or windshield wipers. I can fit any high rise intake with any carb and still have room for a very tall air cleaner.
02-05-2011, 02:33 PM
#5
Ah, okay. Well then I would say it depends on what you want to deal with during tuning and maintenance. Are you a change jets and rebuild carb kind of guy? Or, are you a injector and laptop, pay a tuner 4 or 500 for a dyno tune kind of guy? If you are out for maximum driveablility and mostly hassle free operation. I like the computer set up. If you are a tinkerer who likes old school simplicity then go carb. From an all out performance standpoint, they can both generate similar numbers. So, it is a matter of taste.
If you go carb, get the MSD 6010. There are a lot of posts on that topic you can look up.
If you go carb, get the MSD 6010. There are a lot of posts on that topic you can look up.
Last edited by speedtigger; 02-05-2011 at 02:39 PM.
02-05-2011, 03:36 PM
#7
Going carb may not be as cheap as some think. I know first hand:
Manifold 300
Carb 500
air cleaner 50
MSD box 300
misc fittings, linkage and accessories 100?
So you will have well over a grand in carb stuff maybe $1500 by the time it is done. So, I don't know how much cheaper it really is.
Trending Topics
02-05-2011, 04:27 PM
#8
Pretty simple, fully able to tune your car with more peak HP with a carb, not to mention WAY cheaper, or EFI that gets slightly better economy, slightly more power a cross the board and you have t get dyno tunes to get the most from it usually by a company/shop.
I dont have the cash for the EFI not to mention our aluminum intakes bitch slap majority of the composite EFI intakes in terms of flow.
I dont have the cash for the EFI not to mention our aluminum intakes bitch slap majority of the composite EFI intakes in terms of flow.
02-05-2011, 04:43 PM
#9
On The Tree
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 135
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for all the replies guys. Yes, I am a tinker. All I have ever delt with was carbs. Edelbrock/Carter, Holley, Weber, Rochester... I had the best luck with Edelbrock/Carter, and Holley. I think this engine makes around 320 HP in the factory condition in the 98 Camaro SS. So, I was thinking maybe I could get the Performer RPM intake, matching camshaft, and Edelbrock recomends using their 800 cfm AVS carb. I already have the Edelbrock engine mounts, matching Edelbrock long tube step headers, and everything is bolted to an old school M 21 4 speed. Sound good? What do you guys recommend?
02-06-2011, 09:52 AM
#10
I take it smog isn't an issue where you live.
Like said above, cost of EFI vs. carb depends on what you get with the pull out. Since you are a tinker, like me you will want some way to tune the EFI so plan on another $500 (less used) for HPtuner plus access to a laptop. In my case this was my first Holley carb, so I had to drop another few hundred bucks on miscellaneous carb tuning parts. The little stuff adds up. But also consider one failed EFI sensor can quickly swing the balance of cost.
Carb'd motors simply do run as well cold as EFI, but you probably know that too. It is fun watching some young kid try and start my carb'd motor when they don't know the drill.
People routinely say EFI motors get better mileage, but from the few direct comparisons I have seen that isn't true. Tuned right, especially with a wideband, the carbs do as well once at full operating temp. If you are really worried about MPG then swap out the 4 speed for an overdrive 5 or 6 speed. My 440 HP LS2 Datsun gets the best mileage of my 3 carss (25 mpg)
As for power, there have been several car mag tests that show carbs will outperform EFI down low and up high. There have been links posted recently in this section if you are curious.
One last thing, the MSD ignition boxes are really nice ignition. You can set a timing curve with a pill, or by using a computer with free software. With the laptop you can change the curve by just moving dots around on a graph. The box allows you to run a vacuum advance too. Once set, you won't need the laptop again until the next time you want to change something. Some people have had problems getting the box to work, but I think it is fair to say the overwhelming majority it is just plug and and go. The box comes with the harness, all you need to add is power, grounds and a MAP sensor if you are going to run vacuum advance.
Like said above, cost of EFI vs. carb depends on what you get with the pull out. Since you are a tinker, like me you will want some way to tune the EFI so plan on another $500 (less used) for HPtuner plus access to a laptop. In my case this was my first Holley carb, so I had to drop another few hundred bucks on miscellaneous carb tuning parts. The little stuff adds up. But also consider one failed EFI sensor can quickly swing the balance of cost.
Carb'd motors simply do run as well cold as EFI, but you probably know that too. It is fun watching some young kid try and start my carb'd motor when they don't know the drill.
People routinely say EFI motors get better mileage, but from the few direct comparisons I have seen that isn't true. Tuned right, especially with a wideband, the carbs do as well once at full operating temp. If you are really worried about MPG then swap out the 4 speed for an overdrive 5 or 6 speed. My 440 HP LS2 Datsun gets the best mileage of my 3 carss (25 mpg)
As for power, there have been several car mag tests that show carbs will outperform EFI down low and up high. There have been links posted recently in this section if you are curious.
One last thing, the MSD ignition boxes are really nice ignition. You can set a timing curve with a pill, or by using a computer with free software. With the laptop you can change the curve by just moving dots around on a graph. The box allows you to run a vacuum advance too. Once set, you won't need the laptop again until the next time you want to change something. Some people have had problems getting the box to work, but I think it is fair to say the overwhelming majority it is just plug and and go. The box comes with the harness, all you need to add is power, grounds and a MAP sensor if you are going to run vacuum advance.
02-06-2011, 11:04 AM
#11
Staging Lane
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Topeka, KS
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I take it smog isn't an issue where you live.
Like said above, cost of EFI vs. carb depends on what you get with the pull out. Since you are a tinker, like me you will want some way to tune the EFI so plan on another $500 (less used) for HPtuner plus access to a laptop. In my case this was my first Holley carb, so I had to drop another few hundred bucks on miscellaneous carb tuning parts. The little stuff adds up. But also consider one failed EFI sensor can quickly swing the balance of cost.
Carb'd motors simply do run as well cold as EFI, but you probably know that too. It is fun watching some young kid try and start my carb'd motor when they don't know the drill.
People routinely say EFI motors get better mileage, but from the few direct comparisons I have seen that isn't true. Tuned right, especially with a wideband, the carbs do as well once at full operating temp. If you are really worried about MPG then swap out the 4 speed for an overdrive 5 or 6 speed. My 440 HP LS2 Datsun gets the best mileage of my 3 carss (25 mpg)
As for power, there have been several car mag tests that show carbs will outperform EFI down low and up high. There have been links posted recently in this section if you are curious.
One last thing, the MSD ignition boxes are really nice ignition. You can set a timing curve with a pill, or by using a computer with free software. With the laptop you can change the curve by just moving dots around on a graph. The box allows you to run a vacuum advance too. Once set, you won't need the laptop again until the next time you want to change something. Some people have had problems getting the box to work, but I think it is fair to say the overwhelming majority it is just plug and and go. The box comes with the harness, all you need to add is power, grounds and a MAP sensor if you are going to run vacuum advance.
Like said above, cost of EFI vs. carb depends on what you get with the pull out. Since you are a tinker, like me you will want some way to tune the EFI so plan on another $500 (less used) for HPtuner plus access to a laptop. In my case this was my first Holley carb, so I had to drop another few hundred bucks on miscellaneous carb tuning parts. The little stuff adds up. But also consider one failed EFI sensor can quickly swing the balance of cost.
Carb'd motors simply do run as well cold as EFI, but you probably know that too. It is fun watching some young kid try and start my carb'd motor when they don't know the drill.
People routinely say EFI motors get better mileage, but from the few direct comparisons I have seen that isn't true. Tuned right, especially with a wideband, the carbs do as well once at full operating temp. If you are really worried about MPG then swap out the 4 speed for an overdrive 5 or 6 speed. My 440 HP LS2 Datsun gets the best mileage of my 3 carss (25 mpg)
As for power, there have been several car mag tests that show carbs will outperform EFI down low and up high. There have been links posted recently in this section if you are curious.
One last thing, the MSD ignition boxes are really nice ignition. You can set a timing curve with a pill, or by using a computer with free software. With the laptop you can change the curve by just moving dots around on a graph. The box allows you to run a vacuum advance too. Once set, you won't need the laptop again until the next time you want to change something. Some people have had problems getting the box to work, but I think it is fair to say the overwhelming majority it is just plug and and go. The box comes with the harness, all you need to add is power, grounds and a MAP sensor if you are going to run vacuum advance.
Also, the MSD 6010 is easy, either way you decide to go. Whether it's the tuning pills, or creating your own curve.
02-06-2011, 11:31 AM
#12
Yea. I paid my tuner 500$ plus installed parts on his car to pay for tunes for my car and uncles car. Was worth every $. My car had very aggressive cam and heads yet idled and drove like stock under normal conditions so does the other car and it's a dd with over 600rw on pump gas.drives just like stock around town. But I don't have the skills to calibrate the PCM like my tuner. But have enough skill to calibrate a carb
02-06-2011, 11:34 AM
#13
Pretty simple, fully able to tune your car with more peak HP with a carb, not to mention WAY cheaper, or EFI that gets slightly better economy, slightly more power a cross the board and you have t get dyno tunes to get the most from it usually by a company/shop.
I dont have the cash for the EFI not to mention our aluminum intakes bitch slap majority of the composite EFI intakes in terms of flow.
I dont have the cash for the EFI not to mention our aluminum intakes bitch slap majority of the composite EFI intakes in terms of flow.
02-06-2011, 11:36 AM
#14
Agreed. One great thing about carburetors, if you decide to change heads or even increase cubic inches on your engine in the future, minimal re-tuning is required. If your carburetor is calibrated correctly, it should only need a jet change, and maybe a high speed air bleed change. Versus paying a efi tuner to re-tune, costing another $300, $400, or $500.
Also, the MSD 6010 is easy, either way you decide to go. Whether it's the tuning pills, or creating your own curve.
Also, the MSD 6010 is easy, either way you decide to go. Whether it's the tuning pills, or creating your own curve.
02-06-2011, 11:37 AM
#15
A good tuners rates are over 600$ for road and dyno tunes in sd . It gets pricey quick for aggressive n/a motors and forced induction cars that have outgrown the maf capability. Carb needs none of that to run. Just change out few jets and such.
02-06-2011, 02:11 PM
#16
You dont have to agree, i just spread info i read on between here and other places with real pros, pro systems went from their filly tuned EFI setup, swapped to a carb and pretty much no matter what they did, the carb made more power, 25 more HP to be exact.
The carb setup especially for a existing carbed car is cheaper to swap.
And fuel economy is usually better for the EFI, not always but with a race built Proform carbs and what not, i get 20 where as the EFI cars i see get 24 or so, i might be able to lean it out a bit more, but then cold starts are a bit harder.
Dont know what you disagree with, but i hope i hit the mark.
The carb setup especially for a existing carbed car is cheaper to swap.
And fuel economy is usually better for the EFI, not always but with a race built Proform carbs and what not, i get 20 where as the EFI cars i see get 24 or so, i might be able to lean it out a bit more, but then cold starts are a bit harder.
Dont know what you disagree with, but i hope i hit the mark.
02-06-2011, 04:45 PM
#17
From what I have seen, custom EFI systems and custom carbureted systems can be formatted to deliver pretty equal maximum power performance for most any given demand. As long as the runner length, design efficiency and plenum volume are proper for the given engine, the WOT power output results will be roughly the same if each is property tuned.
I have heard that carburetors have some atomization advantages at certain RPM ranges, but I have never seen evidence in an apples to apples comparison to prove to me the a perfectly tuned carb set up will outperform a perfectly tuned fuel injection set up.
Now, if we go away from the seldom found "ideal situation" and into real world situations, it is a whole different story. To be specific, your average LS engine swap or retrofit. In these instances people are typically considering factory fuel injector or aftermarket carb conversions with either a truck intake, LS1, LS2 or LS6 intake to an aftermaket intake like the Performer RPM or the Victor JR. In these cases, with real world street combinations (not full out race) the results are as such:
The truck, LS2 or LS6 intake gets slightly outperformed by the Performer RPM below 4500 RPM and Slightly outperformed by the Victor JR at near 6000 RPM and above. However, in the midrange and overall, the average power under the curve is better with the EFI intake. The dyno test in this article is the perfect example:
http://www.vetteweb.com/tech/vemp_06...tor/index.html
There are also excellent examples in this book:
http://www.cartechbooks.com/vstore/s...D=2891&CATID=3
I will say for the record that I chose a carburetor for my latest project because I wanted to be able to tune it myself. I also liked the idea of not having to go pay somebody 500 bux for a new tune if I decided to swap heads, cam or intake. I just like the old school simplicity.
However, let there be no confusion here. EFI is superior for fuel economy, drivablity and dependability. End of story. That is why EFI is in every single new car there is. It is superior. And, if the aforementioned attributes were my primary considerations for my project, it would have EFI.
I am not saying that anybody should not choose a carbureted set up. I chose a carbureted set up. But let's not kid ourselves that it is superior or even equal in overall performance and drivability to EFI in your average street car.
I have heard that carburetors have some atomization advantages at certain RPM ranges, but I have never seen evidence in an apples to apples comparison to prove to me the a perfectly tuned carb set up will outperform a perfectly tuned fuel injection set up.
Now, if we go away from the seldom found "ideal situation" and into real world situations, it is a whole different story. To be specific, your average LS engine swap or retrofit. In these instances people are typically considering factory fuel injector or aftermarket carb conversions with either a truck intake, LS1, LS2 or LS6 intake to an aftermaket intake like the Performer RPM or the Victor JR. In these cases, with real world street combinations (not full out race) the results are as such:
The truck, LS2 or LS6 intake gets slightly outperformed by the Performer RPM below 4500 RPM and Slightly outperformed by the Victor JR at near 6000 RPM and above. However, in the midrange and overall, the average power under the curve is better with the EFI intake. The dyno test in this article is the perfect example:
http://www.vetteweb.com/tech/vemp_06...tor/index.html
There are also excellent examples in this book:
http://www.cartechbooks.com/vstore/s...D=2891&CATID=3
I will say for the record that I chose a carburetor for my latest project because I wanted to be able to tune it myself. I also liked the idea of not having to go pay somebody 500 bux for a new tune if I decided to swap heads, cam or intake. I just like the old school simplicity.
However, let there be no confusion here. EFI is superior for fuel economy, drivablity and dependability. End of story. That is why EFI is in every single new car there is. It is superior. And, if the aforementioned attributes were my primary considerations for my project, it would have EFI.
I am not saying that anybody should not choose a carbureted set up. I chose a carbureted set up. But let's not kid ourselves that it is superior or even equal in overall performance and drivability to EFI in your average street car.
02-06-2011, 09:05 PM
#18
On The Tree
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 135
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Very well said information by all...I have made my decision to go carbed. I am going to use the MSD 6010, and either the Edelbrock RPM, or Victor Jr. This is mainly a street car. In real world use, on a stock Camaro SS LS1, what is yall's opinions on which intake and carb to run?
02-06-2011, 10:24 PM
#19
On The Tree
Thread Starter
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 135
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Looks like I just scored a Edelbrock performer 800 cfm carb that I traded a tach for. It will get me by at least to get this old Chevelle started... YEEHAWW!