New to this....a few questions........
08-12-2014, 05:12 PM
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New to this....a few questions........ A friend of mine has a stock ls engine with an ls6 intake and headers in his 99 Camaro. Due to ease of tuning and wanting future mods, he is going carbed..... He got a deal on a super vic intake (i know maybe a little big, but it is what it is). Planning on a 750 carb immediately and a camshaft down the road. Currently with no tune on it, the car goes 11.70@111.4 with a 1.55 sixty foot. The converter is a 4800 flash 8" unit, and the gear is a 4.56. The car never drops below 5500 on the shift as it is, so will it see any gain from the single plane? Has anyone done a direct comparison on a STOCK engine with a single plane vs an ls6 or fast intake? Remember....I care NOTHING (or at least very little) about what is going on below 4800 rpm. Thanks to all....!
08-12-2014, 10:46 PM
#3
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as above, don't see it going slower. need a decent cam to get her going, also some compression. be aware of going to a big cam, with decked heads you come into ptv issues. be aware a efi cam will be totally different to carb single plane one.
08-13-2014, 04:43 AM
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Upping compression on a typical street motor with street oriented cam is once again BS. There are a number of examples of those who've equaled or had better results than your 12:1 combo, with 10:1 or less static compression, we've been through this before. The only real result is creating an unnecessarily narrow tuning window and an engine that won't be happy on more typical pump gas.
Unless you are going for a serious race oriented cam, there is next to nothing to be gained by upping the static comp ratio.
Unless you are going for a serious race oriented cam, there is next to nothing to be gained by upping the static comp ratio.
08-13-2014, 04:50 AM
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A friend of mine has a stock ls engine with an ls6 intake and headers in his 99 Camaro. Due to ease of tuning and wanting future mods, he is going carbed..... He got a deal on a super vic intake (i know maybe a little big, but it is what it is). Planning on a 750 carb immediately and a camshaft down the road. Currently with no tune on it, the car goes 11.70@111.4 with a 1.55 sixty foot. The converter is a 4800 flash 8" unit, and the gear is a 4.56. The car never drops below 5500 on the shift as it is, so will it see any gain from the single plane? Has anyone done a direct comparison on a STOCK engine with a single plane vs an ls6 or fast intake? Remember....I care NOTHING (or at least very little) about what is going on below 4800 rpm. Thanks to all....!
Recommend contacting Martin @ Tick Performance for getting the cam and combination right for whatever it is you want to achieve with the car.
08-13-2014, 05:12 AM
#6
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Upping compression on a typical street motor with street oriented cam is once again BS. There are a number of examples of those who've equaled or had better results than your 12:1 combo, with 10:1 or less static compression, we've been through this before. The only real result is creating an unnecessarily narrow tuning window and an engine that won't be happy on more typical pump gas.
Unless you are going for a serious race oriented cam, there is next to nothing to be gained by upping the static comp ratio.
Unless you are going for a serious race oriented cam, there is next to nothing to be gained by upping the static comp ratio.
08-13-2014, 06:02 AM
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Your cam is a street cam, 99 percent of people posting here have a "street" cam. There is nothing to gain with high static comp in a street motor, unless you have a serious race cam. Which would be anything over 240/250 @ .050" duration, and would require an intake tract that flows well enough to take advantage of said cam. Running such a cam would also be unrealistic to fit in what is usually a stock short or long engine that most would be working with.
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08-13-2014, 06:17 AM
#8
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errr, i talk nothing of my cam (FWIW thats what i had available for very cheap, also heads that were available from previous build).
pretty much say the same as you (reread my post). anything over 4800 will be monster cam, which means usually headwork and compression to get it to go, also lots of ptv issues...
pretty much say the same as you (reread my post). anything over 4800 will be monster cam, which means usually headwork and compression to get it to go, also lots of ptv issues...
08-13-2014, 09:15 AM
#9
From my experience, increasing compression on a street engine has diminishing returns as the ratio gets higher. For example: going from 8.5:1 to 10:1 will make notably more performance improvement than going from 10:1 to 11.5:1. But that is a generalization and does not take all of the factors into account.
The choice of cam is a huge factor. Engines equipped with cams having more overlap or later intake valve closing that are designed to operate at a higher RPM will benefit considerably more by adding compression. So, in my opinion you have to look at the whole combo.
Look at what GM does when they design the engines. The high performance models have more compression. Why? Because it makes more power. In a addition, the performance models have camshafts with valve timing that moves the power band up. Same correlation. LQ4 and LY6 truck engines have 9.4:1 and 9.6:1 respectively. LS2 and LS3 engines have 10.88:1 and 10.7:1 respectively.
Taking those examples and then considering that your typical aftermarket high performance camshaft has more overlap and a later intake valve closing than the factory LS2 and LS3 cams do, it becomes obvious that they will in fact benefit from more compression. Some guys push it to 12:1 on pump gas, but I think 11:1-11.5:1 can be a good place for your average aggressive street/strip combo that is well set up.
The choice of cam is a huge factor. Engines equipped with cams having more overlap or later intake valve closing that are designed to operate at a higher RPM will benefit considerably more by adding compression. So, in my opinion you have to look at the whole combo.
Look at what GM does when they design the engines. The high performance models have more compression. Why? Because it makes more power. In a addition, the performance models have camshafts with valve timing that moves the power band up. Same correlation. LQ4 and LY6 truck engines have 9.4:1 and 9.6:1 respectively. LS2 and LS3 engines have 10.88:1 and 10.7:1 respectively.
Taking those examples and then considering that your typical aftermarket high performance camshaft has more overlap and a later intake valve closing than the factory LS2 and LS3 cams do, it becomes obvious that they will in fact benefit from more compression. Some guys push it to 12:1 on pump gas, but I think 11:1-11.5:1 can be a good place for your average aggressive street/strip combo that is well set up.
08-13-2014, 04:13 PM
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I totally agree, but someone that just thinks you need 12:1 with anything and everything is wrong. Dynamic compression is the deciding factor to working out ideal static comp, which is where camshaft starts to take effect as well.
Like I've said previously in other threads, so far NO ONE has beaten DM's 9.87 @ 137 albeit with a 9.9:1 junkyard engine combo. And not forgetting fast89stang who's also running similar 1/8th mile efforts with just under 10:1 comp at best.
Your 12:1 with a mild 236 intake lobe puts dynamic comp way out of being suited for pump gas, and for what result? A motor that needs e85 to ensure it doesn't smash itself to pieces. Nothing clever or remarkable about that, especially when it would easily perform the same with 10-11:1 and be pump gas friendly. The point is excessive static compression achieves nothing in these sorts of situations.
Like I've said previously in other threads, so far NO ONE has beaten DM's 9.87 @ 137 albeit with a 9.9:1 junkyard engine combo. And not forgetting fast89stang who's also running similar 1/8th mile efforts with just under 10:1 comp at best.
Your 12:1 with a mild 236 intake lobe puts dynamic comp way out of being suited for pump gas, and for what result? A motor that needs e85 to ensure it doesn't smash itself to pieces. Nothing clever or remarkable about that, especially when it would easily perform the same with 10-11:1 and be pump gas friendly. The point is excessive static compression achieves nothing in these sorts of situations.
08-13-2014, 08:32 PM
#11
3pedals stock l92s Milled .100"
Raceweight 3505 - 10.90's@130 shifting at 7500+
601 Horsepower
The Stunningman Square Port Milled (not sure how much)
Raceweight 3200 - 9.99@134 7500 RPM Shift
601 Horsepower
IheartLS1: 3750lbs, 10.6x/126- stock shortblock, CFM ported heads.
585 Horsepower
Dmmizell: 2900lbs, 9.87/137 - stock heads
582 Horsepower
ThirdGenBum Matt PRC CNC LS6 Heads -.030" 11.2:1 t-56
Raceweight #3260 10.48@131.8
Horsepower 581 - shifting at 7100
06X6spdGTO LQ9 TFS as cast 220 10.9:1
10.30 @ 129.53 MPH corrected from 3500'- shifts 7200
#3300 Raceweight
Horsepower: 560 corrected for 3500 d/a
Fast89stang Square Port unported Milled -.020" 9.94:1
Raceweight 2965 6.34@107
Horsepower: 544
Your 12:1 with a mild 236 intake lobe puts dynamic comp way out of being suited for pump gas, and for what result? A motor that needs e85 to ensure it doesn't smash itself to pieces. Nothing clever or remarkable about that, especially when it would easily perform the same with 10-11:1 and be pump gas friendly. The point is excessive static compression achieves nothing in these sorts of situations.
Personally I think 12:1 and E85 go together like peanut butter and jelly! Is E85 expensive in Australia or something?
08-13-2014, 09:05 PM
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You've proven more the point I was making. When it comes to oz, guys tend to get caught up in things like excessive compression, or putting a damn twin carb tunnel ram on every combo. Then wonder why mediocre results come about. All I am getting at and your examples further exemplify, that high static compression isn't necessary for a lot of these combinations.
In this country most are more interested with doing burnouts and going nowhere, rather than chasing track results with a well thought out engine combo. DB will possibly agree with this!
In this country most are more interested with doing burnouts and going nowhere, rather than chasing track results with a well thought out engine combo. DB will possibly agree with this!
08-13-2014, 09:31 PM
#14
for clarification for anyone else reading your list Speedtigger, my Ly6 only had a .050" head cut.
VLS1, DB's, and Tigg, I think you guys are saying the same thing, your just not articulating it into text, - here is what is take for your posts and the way I see it:
ITS ALL THE COMBO, think it through, and match the components that make the power
oh, there is a reason that the stunningman's combo and mine ran the same power - the engines are near identical, both with BRE cams
VLS1, DB's, and Tigg, I think you guys are saying the same thing, your just not articulating it into text, - here is what is take for your posts and the way I see it:
ITS ALL THE COMBO, think it through, and match the components that make the power
oh, there is a reason that the stunningman's combo and mine ran the same power - the engines are near identical, both with BRE cams
08-13-2014, 09:52 PM
#15
for clarification for anyone else reading your list Speedtigger, my Ly6 only had a .050" head cut.
VLS1, DB's, and Tigg, I think you guys are saying the same thing, your just not articulating it into text, - here is what is take for your posts and the way I see it:
ITS ALL THE COMBO, think it through, and match the components that make the power
oh, there is a reason that the stunningman's combo and mine ran the same power - the engines are near identical, both with BRE cams
VLS1, DB's, and Tigg, I think you guys are saying the same thing, your just not articulating it into text, - here is what is take for your posts and the way I see it:
ITS ALL THE COMBO, think it through, and match the components that make the power
oh, there is a reason that the stunningman's combo and mine ran the same power - the engines are near identical, both with BRE cams
08-14-2014, 10:41 PM
#17
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e85 is relatively cheap.
my combo was about using the parts i had and trying a few things. for what it is/was it achieved more than i expected, pity i didn't have more time as i think in a colder conditions it would go 9.9x, but 10.000 is pretty close. the engine is going into a street car and may get a new cam/heads in the new year.
but hats off to dave mizell, that little notch was setup really well. 1.3 60fts is awesome and really gets things going.
my combo was about using the parts i had and trying a few things. for what it is/was it achieved more than i expected, pity i didn't have more time as i think in a colder conditions it would go 9.9x, but 10.000 is pretty close. the engine is going into a street car and may get a new cam/heads in the new year.
but hats off to dave mizell, that little notch was setup really well. 1.3 60fts is awesome and really gets things going.
08-15-2014, 08:36 AM
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Actually Dave does not stand alone in the 6.0 world when it comes to power. He is 4th and Matt is right there with him. And that is just the list I have so far.
3pedals stock l92s Milled .100"
Raceweight 3505 - 10.90's@130 shifting at 7500+
601 Horsepower
The Stunningman Square Port Milled (not sure how much)
Raceweight 3200 - 9.99@134 7500 RPM Shift
601 Horsepower
IheartLS1: 3750lbs, 10.6x/126- stock shortblock, CFM ported heads.
585 Horsepower
Dmmizell: 2900lbs, 9.87/137 - stock heads
582 Horsepower
ThirdGenBum Matt PRC CNC LS6 Heads -.030" 11.2:1 t-56
Raceweight #3260 10.48@131.8
Horsepower 581 - shifting at 7100
06X6spdGTO LQ9 TFS as cast 220 10.9:1
10.30 @ 129.53 MPH corrected from 3500'- shifts 7200
#3300 Raceweight
Horsepower: 560 corrected for 3500 d/a
Fast89stang Square Port unported Milled -.020" 9.94:1
Raceweight 2965 6.34@107
Horsepower: 544
Why are you so hard on your fellow aussie? You better hope your car can outrun him when you finally get it done.
Personally I think 12:1 and E85 go together like peanut butter and jelly! Is E85 expensive in Australia or something?
3pedals stock l92s Milled .100"
Raceweight 3505 - 10.90's@130 shifting at 7500+
601 Horsepower
The Stunningman Square Port Milled (not sure how much)
Raceweight 3200 - 9.99@134 7500 RPM Shift
601 Horsepower
IheartLS1: 3750lbs, 10.6x/126- stock shortblock, CFM ported heads.
585 Horsepower
Dmmizell: 2900lbs, 9.87/137 - stock heads
582 Horsepower
ThirdGenBum Matt PRC CNC LS6 Heads -.030" 11.2:1 t-56
Raceweight #3260 10.48@131.8
Horsepower 581 - shifting at 7100
06X6spdGTO LQ9 TFS as cast 220 10.9:1
10.30 @ 129.53 MPH corrected from 3500'- shifts 7200
#3300 Raceweight
Horsepower: 560 corrected for 3500 d/a
Fast89stang Square Port unported Milled -.020" 9.94:1
Raceweight 2965 6.34@107
Horsepower: 544
Why are you so hard on your fellow aussie? You better hope your car can outrun him when you finally get it done.
Personally I think 12:1 and E85 go together like peanut butter and jelly! Is E85 expensive in Australia or something?
Peanut butter and jelly? Maybe that'll help the e85 perform in motors that can clearly perform better with regular pump gas and low comp.
08-15-2014, 09:27 AM
#19
Fast89Mustang's best MPH in the 1/8th is 107. I think Dave's was 109+. Dave's car didn't really 60' that great with the SBE combo, that is why his ET was so low for his MPH. I think it wanted more converter. I think if Fast89Mustang ran it out in the 1/4, his MPH would be about 134.