Confirmed blow-through turbo setup!
02-12-2016, 02:15 PM
#1
Confirmed blow-through turbo setup! Hello all my old carb friends! Been gone a while, but Ive still been playing with the 72 Camaro when my back lets me off the couch, LOL.
I looked at barrons thread and since my questions don't parallel his too much, I didn't want to muddy up his responses .
I have decided to go with a blow -through, low boost, meth /water cooled setup on the stock shortblock LS3.
I already have a BorgWarner s400 74mm/83mm bullseye street billet turbo. It came with 2 turbine housings (.90AR, 1.25AR) so I can experiment with spool up speed. I calculated the map on a stock s400 on borgwarners mapbot and I think the 1.25AR is gonna be perfect for what I want to do.
My plans are to run 7-8psi with snow boostjuice and no external intercooler. Im shooting for 600rwhp through Lonnies 2004R and a 8.5 10 bolt with 4.10s. Patrick at ProSystems is building a carb for me, as we speak and I have a Holley single plane headed this way for it to sit on.
Im gonna try to run the Bullet cam I had ground a while back and see how it does (220-230 at .050 108, 629-629). As long as I don't build too much backpressure between the engine and the exhaust turbine, I think the cam will help spool up (fingers crossed!).
Ok, now for the question , where would be a good place to start on spark plugs ? I hear extended tip plugs are a no-go, but whats working for boosted carb setups, heat range and brand/style ? And what about timing? My combo runs really good at 29* NA. How far back would be a safe starting point on 7-8 LBS?
I looked at barrons thread and since my questions don't parallel his too much, I didn't want to muddy up his responses .
I have decided to go with a blow -through, low boost, meth /water cooled setup on the stock shortblock LS3.
I already have a BorgWarner s400 74mm/83mm bullseye street billet turbo. It came with 2 turbine housings (.90AR, 1.25AR) so I can experiment with spool up speed. I calculated the map on a stock s400 on borgwarners mapbot and I think the 1.25AR is gonna be perfect for what I want to do.
My plans are to run 7-8psi with snow boostjuice and no external intercooler. Im shooting for 600rwhp through Lonnies 2004R and a 8.5 10 bolt with 4.10s. Patrick at ProSystems is building a carb for me, as we speak and I have a Holley single plane headed this way for it to sit on.
Im gonna try to run the Bullet cam I had ground a while back and see how it does (220-230 at .050 108, 629-629). As long as I don't build too much backpressure between the engine and the exhaust turbine, I think the cam will help spool up (fingers crossed!).
Ok, now for the question , where would be a good place to start on spark plugs ? I hear extended tip plugs are a no-go, but whats working for boosted carb setups, heat range and brand/style ? And what about timing? My combo runs really good at 29* NA. How far back would be a safe starting point on 7-8 LBS?
02-13-2016, 09:30 AM
#4
Its a stock long block LS3 (with a cam swap). 10.7 comp. I feel like the carb cooling effect on the intake and the boost juice together will be ok as long as I keep the timing conservative. I would be nervous on 10 lbs with my setup, but at 7-8lbs, im not too worried.
02-14-2016, 06:59 PM
#6
topbrent, I never did get back to the track with traction to see what the car is capable of NA, so the best still stands at 11.65 at 119 mph, but with a tire spinning 1.96 60 ft. That was with 3.42 gears, nitto NTO5r 275-40-17s, and stiff lowered Hotchkiss leaf springs. Since then I put together a triangulated 4 link rear suspension, coil overs all around, changed my tires up to 18s, with 305-35-18 MT SSs, and stuck 4.10s in the 10 bolt. I haven't tested any of that stuff because Im still breaking the 4.10s in.
Ive just always wanted a boosted car and I sure aint getting any younger ! So, here we go, LOL !
As far as being back on line, its nice to be back. My back issues haven't gotten any better, and in a lot of ways, its worse. It takes a long time to get anything done on the car because my back wont let me run at it like I use to. Believe it or not, sitting at this desk a typing on this keyboard is more painful than crawling around under the car ! But Im gonna plug away at both when I can. Good to hear from ya !
Ive just always wanted a boosted car and I sure aint getting any younger ! So, here we go, LOL !
As far as being back on line, its nice to be back. My back issues haven't gotten any better, and in a lot of ways, its worse. It takes a long time to get anything done on the car because my back wont let me run at it like I use to. Believe it or not, sitting at this desk a typing on this keyboard is more painful than crawling around under the car ! But Im gonna plug away at both when I can. Good to hear from ya !
02-15-2016, 03:39 PM
#7
UPS showed up with my turbo , intake, regulator, pre filter today. Got my fingers crossed that fed Ex brings some stuff too, LOL. I made a mistake on the size of my turbo in my original post though.....Its a 72mm, not a 74mm. It does have the 83mm turbine with 2 housings to choose my AR from. Bullseye says its good for 1000HP, so even at only 72mm I have more than Im gonna need. The CXracing 4th gen hot side headers and piping is suppose to be here Wed. Im starting to get a little intimidated ! LOL.
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02-17-2016, 12:40 PM
#8
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I would start with a non projected tip plug like a Ngk br7-8 and go from there. You didn't state what head your using just that its a stock ls3 shortblock. I personally would change that rear gear out to a 3.27/3.31/3.55 unless you have a Giant tire on the back in which the 4.10 will work. As far as the cam goes im all for overlap but I think that your cam is a little too much on the installed centerline. Give John a call at LJMS or Martin at Smallwood Race Deveolpment. Both guys are great at what they do.
02-17-2016, 01:05 PM
#9
I would start with a non projected tip plug like a Ngk br7-8 and go from there. You didn't state what head your using just that its a stock ls3 shortblock. I personally would change that rear gear out to a 3.27/3.31/3.55 unless you have a Giant tire on the back in which the 4.10 will work. As far as the cam goes im all for overlap but I think that your cam is a little too much on the installed centerline. Give John a call at LJMS or Martin at Smallwood Race Deveolpment. Both guys are great at what they do.
As far as the cam goes? Its no bwano ! With my compression (10.7 static ) and DCR at 8.82, Id be lucky to be able to run 3 psi without melting something, LOL ! Im looking at installing an LS9 cam with 1.8 rockers at this point, unless one of the cam gurus on here can hook me up with something that has a 70+ intake closing without hanging me with 240+* at .050 ! With the LS9 cam, my DCR is 6.6 (!). With a static 10.7, a 6.6 DCR will allow me to run 12psi and have my EFFECTIVE BOOSTED compression at 11.99 to 1. I can live with 12 to 1 with an all aluminum engine, 93 pump, and water/meth. I was up till 2am figuring all that out last night. I LOVE the Bullet Racing cam that Tim helped me put together, but it just will not work with this new set-up
02-19-2016, 10:13 AM
#11
I have never heard of "effective boosted compression". I also don't think the dynamic compression ratio formula is really good for anything on your turbo build. Dynamic compression ratio does not take volumetric efficiency into account, so I consider it pretty useless in this case in my opinion.
Honestly, I think cam selection for a mild simple turbo setup like yours is pretty simple. I get that your static compression ratio is a bit high, but turbo engines are not going to behave the same as a naturally aspirated engine. In a naturally aspirated engine, you can delay the IVC to lower cylinder pressures below torque peak and maybe move the torque peak higher in the RPM in an effort to reduce pre-ignition/detonation. But, with a small street style turbo, you are going to reach max boost well before torque peak and I am thinking that backing the IVC up a few degrees is not going to help like it will in a naturally aspirated engine.
If it were mine, and I wanted a mild turbo combo that will spool up fast, I would go with something like this:
http://store.cammotion.com/turbo-stage-
Then, I would focus on a nice cool air charge, best fuel I can get and some alcohol injection.
Honestly, I think cam selection for a mild simple turbo setup like yours is pretty simple. I get that your static compression ratio is a bit high, but turbo engines are not going to behave the same as a naturally aspirated engine. In a naturally aspirated engine, you can delay the IVC to lower cylinder pressures below torque peak and maybe move the torque peak higher in the RPM in an effort to reduce pre-ignition/detonation. But, with a small street style turbo, you are going to reach max boost well before torque peak and I am thinking that backing the IVC up a few degrees is not going to help like it will in a naturally aspirated engine.
If it were mine, and I wanted a mild turbo combo that will spool up fast, I would go with something like this:
http://store.cammotion.com/turbo-stage-
Then, I would focus on a nice cool air charge, best fuel I can get and some alcohol injection.
02-19-2016, 11:45 AM
#12
I have never heard of "effective boosted compression". I also don't think the dynamic compression ratio formula is really good for anything on your turbo build. Dynamic compression ratio does not take volumetric efficiency into account, so I consider it pretty useless in this case in my opinion.
Honestly, I think cam selection for a mild simple turbo setup like yours is pretty simple. I get that your static compression ratio is a bit high, but turbo engines are not going to behave the same as a naturally aspirated engine. In a naturally aspirated engine, you can delay the IVC to lower cylinder pressures below torque peak and maybe move the torque peak higher in the RPM in an effort to reduce pre-ignition/detonation. But, with a small street style turbo, you are going to reach max boost well before torque peak and I am thinking that backing the IVC up a few degrees is not going to help like it will in a naturally aspirated engine.
If it were mine, and I wanted a mild turbo combo that will spool up fast, I would go with something like this:
http://store.cammotion.com/turbo-stage-
Then, I would focus on a nice cool air charge, best fuel I can get and some alcohol injection.
Honestly, I think cam selection for a mild simple turbo setup like yours is pretty simple. I get that your static compression ratio is a bit high, but turbo engines are not going to behave the same as a naturally aspirated engine. In a naturally aspirated engine, you can delay the IVC to lower cylinder pressures below torque peak and maybe move the torque peak higher in the RPM in an effort to reduce pre-ignition/detonation. But, with a small street style turbo, you are going to reach max boost well before torque peak and I am thinking that backing the IVC up a few degrees is not going to help like it will in a naturally aspirated engine.
If it were mine, and I wanted a mild turbo combo that will spool up fast, I would go with something like this:
http://store.cammotion.com/turbo-stage-
Then, I would focus on a nice cool air charge, best fuel I can get and some alcohol injection.
I think I will be pretty happy with the LS9 cam, if my results are anything like the 100 or so people on LS1 tech that run that cam in a boosted app. Lingenfelter even dropped one of their most effective turbo cams from production when the LS9 cam became widely available , and started selling it ! LOL.
Im sure the cam Motion grind you recommended is a good one, But I will be happy getting my feet wet with the LS9 cam. Once the bug bites me to crank up the boost, if it does, I will forge the bottom, drop the compression, and look at a tighter turbo cam. For now, I will just enjoy gobs of TQ and HP from a butter smooth, near stock idle, and hope I have the skills to keep my engine alive with this whole forced induction thing. I have a feeling its gonna be fun !
02-22-2016, 07:51 PM
#14
The LS9 cam really is no where near ideal for a turbocharged set-up. It has very odd valve events for a turbo combination. Keep in mind it was designed for OEM emissions and a positive displacement supercharger that has a markedly different power curve than a turbocharger.
It will make a lot more power than a similar N/A engine just from the difference in charge density and the amount of airflow being moved, but the LS9 cam is not optimal by any means.
It will make a lot more power than a similar N/A engine just from the difference in charge density and the amount of airflow being moved, but the LS9 cam is not optimal by any means.
02-25-2016, 09:10 AM
#15
The LS9 cam really is no where near ideal for a turbocharged set-up. It has very odd valve events for a turbo combination. Keep in mind it was designed for OEM emissions and a positive displacement supercharger that has a markedly different power curve than a turbocharger.
It will make a lot more power than a similar N/A engine just from the difference in charge density and the amount of airflow being moved, but the LS9 cam is not optimal by any means.
It will make a lot more power than a similar N/A engine just from the difference in charge density and the amount of airflow being moved, but the LS9 cam is not optimal by any means.
03-26-2016, 09:16 PM
#17
My opinion is that you should get yourself some custom thicker head gaskets to lower the compression. 10.7 is begging for engine destruction on pump gas with any amount of boost.
As for cam I'm sure Martin could hook you up wth a decent cam, but almost anything in and around 220/220 to 224/224 114lsa will work well. Dont get too hung up on it.
That BW 72/83 is a pretty small turbo for a 6.2L, but it will be perfect for your 600rwhp goals. I predict you will need aprox 10psi to get there.
I have full faith in a water/meth injection system , I run 1 myself on my non-intercooled combo.
About the carb, I have not heard anything good about prosystems blow through carbs, but I had EXCELLENT results with my CSU blowthrough carb. I REALLY strongly recommend going with a CSU.
Lastly, the intake - is this the same engine you are running with a dual plane intake? that dual plane is a BIG NO NO for a blowthrough
As for cam I'm sure Martin could hook you up wth a decent cam, but almost anything in and around 220/220 to 224/224 114lsa will work well. Dont get too hung up on it.
That BW 72/83 is a pretty small turbo for a 6.2L, but it will be perfect for your 600rwhp goals. I predict you will need aprox 10psi to get there.
I have full faith in a water/meth injection system , I run 1 myself on my non-intercooled combo.
About the carb, I have not heard anything good about prosystems blow through carbs, but I had EXCELLENT results with my CSU blowthrough carb. I REALLY strongly recommend going with a CSU.
Lastly, the intake - is this the same engine you are running with a dual plane intake? that dual plane is a BIG NO NO for a blowthrough
Last edited by 3pedals; 03-26-2016 at 09:22 PM.
02-13-2017, 04:02 PM
#19
Sorry TA bud, I sold the BW 72mm turbo a couple months back.
Update on the 72 Camaro LS3 turbo build. I an attempt to lower compression and maybe get a little better low RPM off boost power, I sold the stock LS3 heads off the engine and bought a set of 317s to replace them. I did a home port job on the 317s and special ordered a set of Cometic .098 MLS head gaskets. After cleaning and polishing the CCs on the 317s and with the "fat" gaskets, I have a static 9.2 to 1 compression. I also swapped out turbos to a CX racing GT45R 80mm. It not only has a bigger compressor side, but also a larger turbine wheel, which was what had me worried about the BW turbo. I also changed up to the FItech 1200 PA EFI setup and ditched the carb. Even with my cam (225-229 at .050, 114 LSA installed +2) I couldnt get within 50ft of the car running without choking out from exhaust smell. With the FItech, I have a 14.3 AFR at idle, and no nasty exhaust smell. All the reviews Ive seen on the FItech on forced induction setups shows it works flawlessly under positive manifold pressure. I have yet to run it hard because I'm working on some fine tuning and letting the system learn.
I just pulled the Snow water/meth system off today and have a larger inner cooler coming. I'm just trying to simplify the setup a little and because I'm not going crazy with the setup (12-13 LBS), a 31x12x4 A to A cooler should keep me nice and safe.
Hopefully, I will have some power runs on the setup soon and I will post up and report on the good, bad, and the ugly !
Update on the 72 Camaro LS3 turbo build. I an attempt to lower compression and maybe get a little better low RPM off boost power, I sold the stock LS3 heads off the engine and bought a set of 317s to replace them. I did a home port job on the 317s and special ordered a set of Cometic .098 MLS head gaskets. After cleaning and polishing the CCs on the 317s and with the "fat" gaskets, I have a static 9.2 to 1 compression. I also swapped out turbos to a CX racing GT45R 80mm. It not only has a bigger compressor side, but also a larger turbine wheel, which was what had me worried about the BW turbo. I also changed up to the FItech 1200 PA EFI setup and ditched the carb. Even with my cam (225-229 at .050, 114 LSA installed +2) I couldnt get within 50ft of the car running without choking out from exhaust smell. With the FItech, I have a 14.3 AFR at idle, and no nasty exhaust smell. All the reviews Ive seen on the FItech on forced induction setups shows it works flawlessly under positive manifold pressure. I have yet to run it hard because I'm working on some fine tuning and letting the system learn.
I just pulled the Snow water/meth system off today and have a larger inner cooler coming. I'm just trying to simplify the setup a little and because I'm not going crazy with the setup (12-13 LBS), a 31x12x4 A to A cooler should keep me nice and safe.
Hopefully, I will have some power runs on the setup soon and I will post up and report on the good, bad, and the ugly !