Questions about 4th gen Camaro chassis differences
03-23-2011, 09:16 PM
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Questions about 4th gen Camaro chassis differences Not sure which section this would best fit in, since it is a conversion question of sorts- and also would apply to Firebirds/TA's of the same year range.
What I'm wanting to do here- I'm looking to pick up a wrecked/cheap F body to use the floor pan and chassis as a donor for a RWD conversion in my 96 monte carlo. Before people jump in and say 'just buy a camaro', I don't want to go that route- period; I'm trying to recreate something similar to what GM did with the John Moss monte (LT1 5th gen monte which used a camaro floor pan and parts as a chassis donor). I'm bored with FWD, and tired of these glass transmissions. I'd like to go the fbody chassis route to keep the cost of the conversion down (say compared to a full tube chassis route)- and to have access to all the bolt on suspension upgrades. The plan is to use my current L67 swap engine (supercharged 3800) since its pretty heavily modded; and to mate it to a T56 since I'm bored cruising around with the auto (yes I know I'll need an adapter plate).
I'm starting to look for a donor vehicle, and I'd like some expert advice to know which direction I should be going. I do plan to eventually replace all of the suspension/braking parts with upgrades and such (I already have the ctsv/vette front brake upgrade sitting here), but I'd also like to have the option to run the stock chassis parts short term if needed to get the swap done, and just upgrade them later as money and time comes.
My questions:
-Is there any advantage to me buying a V8 camaro over a V6 camaro? IE is the chassis itself different at all (don't really care about the bolt on replacement parts like springs, shocks, etc)
-Any difference to buying a 93-97 car vs a 98-02? I see a lot of aftermarket part places have you select which year range, but I can't find if they changed anything with the chassis in between the two year sets. Rust will not be an issue in the area I live.
-Since I plan to go with a T56: is it going to save me a lot of work to buy a manual car to start with, or is it recommended to upgrade the clutch cylinders and such to start with?
-Would I be the same or worse off to get a convertible? I'd imagine the chassis is more reinforced and heavier? Does the extra bracing extend into the floor pan section that I would be using?
...I'll probably add more questions as I think of them
I did find a potential candidate locally that I need an opinion on- its a 96 convertible, with a 3800 (blown) and a 5 speed for $700 delivered (would save me paying a towing company to get it across town). I'm thinking this is a bonus that it has a 3800, since I will have the necessary engine mounts, and oil pan for the conversion- and another bonus that it is a manual (so I'll have a clutch cylinder/pedal setup already). Also thinking I may end up using some of the engine harness- but I'm not real sure on that yet. But I'm wondering if the convertible is going to add unnecessary weight/bracing for something I'm not going to have anyways. Looks to be nearly rust free underneath, and doesn't appear to have any chassis damage or major repairs (obviously all the measurements will be checked prior to the swap). Thoughts on this?
Thanks in advance to those who can help- I know a ton about the wbodys and 3800's, but nothing this particular about fbodys.
What I'm wanting to do here- I'm looking to pick up a wrecked/cheap F body to use the floor pan and chassis as a donor for a RWD conversion in my 96 monte carlo. Before people jump in and say 'just buy a camaro', I don't want to go that route- period; I'm trying to recreate something similar to what GM did with the John Moss monte (LT1 5th gen monte which used a camaro floor pan and parts as a chassis donor). I'm bored with FWD, and tired of these glass transmissions. I'd like to go the fbody chassis route to keep the cost of the conversion down (say compared to a full tube chassis route)- and to have access to all the bolt on suspension upgrades. The plan is to use my current L67 swap engine (supercharged 3800) since its pretty heavily modded; and to mate it to a T56 since I'm bored cruising around with the auto (yes I know I'll need an adapter plate).
I'm starting to look for a donor vehicle, and I'd like some expert advice to know which direction I should be going. I do plan to eventually replace all of the suspension/braking parts with upgrades and such (I already have the ctsv/vette front brake upgrade sitting here), but I'd also like to have the option to run the stock chassis parts short term if needed to get the swap done, and just upgrade them later as money and time comes.
My questions:
-Is there any advantage to me buying a V8 camaro over a V6 camaro? IE is the chassis itself different at all (don't really care about the bolt on replacement parts like springs, shocks, etc)
-Any difference to buying a 93-97 car vs a 98-02? I see a lot of aftermarket part places have you select which year range, but I can't find if they changed anything with the chassis in between the two year sets. Rust will not be an issue in the area I live.
-Since I plan to go with a T56: is it going to save me a lot of work to buy a manual car to start with, or is it recommended to upgrade the clutch cylinders and such to start with?
-Would I be the same or worse off to get a convertible? I'd imagine the chassis is more reinforced and heavier? Does the extra bracing extend into the floor pan section that I would be using?
...I'll probably add more questions as I think of them
I did find a potential candidate locally that I need an opinion on- its a 96 convertible, with a 3800 (blown) and a 5 speed for $700 delivered (would save me paying a towing company to get it across town). I'm thinking this is a bonus that it has a 3800, since I will have the necessary engine mounts, and oil pan for the conversion- and another bonus that it is a manual (so I'll have a clutch cylinder/pedal setup already). Also thinking I may end up using some of the engine harness- but I'm not real sure on that yet. But I'm wondering if the convertible is going to add unnecessary weight/bracing for something I'm not going to have anyways. Looks to be nearly rust free underneath, and doesn't appear to have any chassis damage or major repairs (obviously all the measurements will be checked prior to the swap). Thoughts on this?
Thanks in advance to those who can help- I know a ton about the wbodys and 3800's, but nothing this particular about fbodys.
03-24-2011, 02:54 PM
#2
TECH Fanatic
This is similar to what West Coast Customs in California has been doing a lot of the past couple years (they have a TV show called Street Customs).
It would likely be best to reuse the engine and transmission from the Camaro, and essentially cut all the body structure stuff off the Monte and basically slide it over the Camaro chassis. If the wheelbase isn't similar, you'll have major issues. If the width is majorly different you'll have huge issues.
The V6 chassis is the same except for the bolt on parts like panhard, sway bar, etc. I believe the k-member is different because of the different engine mounts. Early V6 cars had drum brakes in the rear.
No chassis differences from '93 to '02 to speak of that I know of. If you aren't reusing the engine, transmission, or driveshaft, then there's nothing really to speak of. One reason to go for the '98-'02 Z28 or SS chassis will be the better brakes.
I'd just get a manual car. There's nothing wrong or weak about the T56 other than the clutch not being that good.
The convertibles had a lot of glue used in their construction to make them stiffer. I don't think they had additional metal, but could be wrong. It'll be harder to cut through, but I don't know if it'd be good of bad for you. The convertible top is what added the most weight to the convertibles.
Are you sure it wouldn't be easier and cheaper to modify the Monte Carlo's chassis to have a transmission and driveshaft tunnel? How did Jon Moss's crew do theirs?
It would likely be best to reuse the engine and transmission from the Camaro, and essentially cut all the body structure stuff off the Monte and basically slide it over the Camaro chassis. If the wheelbase isn't similar, you'll have major issues. If the width is majorly different you'll have huge issues.
The V6 chassis is the same except for the bolt on parts like panhard, sway bar, etc. I believe the k-member is different because of the different engine mounts. Early V6 cars had drum brakes in the rear.
No chassis differences from '93 to '02 to speak of that I know of. If you aren't reusing the engine, transmission, or driveshaft, then there's nothing really to speak of. One reason to go for the '98-'02 Z28 or SS chassis will be the better brakes.
I'd just get a manual car. There's nothing wrong or weak about the T56 other than the clutch not being that good.
The convertibles had a lot of glue used in their construction to make them stiffer. I don't think they had additional metal, but could be wrong. It'll be harder to cut through, but I don't know if it'd be good of bad for you. The convertible top is what added the most weight to the convertibles.
Are you sure it wouldn't be easier and cheaper to modify the Monte Carlo's chassis to have a transmission and driveshaft tunnel? How did Jon Moss's crew do theirs?
03-25-2011, 12:48 PM
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It would likely be best to reuse the engine and transmission from the Camaro, and essentially cut all the body structure stuff off the Monte and basically slide it over the Camaro chassis.
Also, I'd like to go with the T56 because I don't think the factory 5 speed that comes with the 3800 camaros is very strong (at least from what I've heard)- and I want to really get away from having to worry about broken transmission problems.
If the wheelbase isn't similar, you'll have major issues. If the width is majorly different you'll have huge issues.
The article said they had a 3" wheelbase difference. Since they didn't modify the body length anywhere- I'm guessing they added to the floor pan (the camaro wheelbase is shorter). My thought is to either add the extra length from a section removed from a junkyard camaro chassis or to section the body and remove some of the rear seat area (I've never used the rear seats and have no need to, so room lost back there would be no big deal).
No chassis differences from '93 to '02 to speak of that I know of. If you aren't reusing the engine, transmission, or driveshaft, then there's nothing really to speak of. One reason to go for the '98-'02 Z28 or SS chassis will be the better brakes.
I'd just get a manual car. There's nothing wrong or weak about the T56 other than the clutch not being that good.
Are you sure it wouldn't be easier and cheaper to modify the Monte Carlo's chassis to have a transmission and driveshaft tunnel? How did Jon Moss's crew do theirs?
The reason I'm not real crazy about modifying the stock floor pan to fit the parts is I don't think the rear end of the car is built to handle that much stress in the back chassis area (ie insufficient reinforcement back there). I have seen people build a tube chassis rear end mated to the stock body- and also people take a section of a RWD chassis and weld it in in back- but I don't like that in terms of overall body strength. I suppose some modified subframe connectors would work to tie everything in together tough.
The other thing with that would be the front end- the stock cradle (just a big box shape) would make it difficult to install a RWD transmission, and then you'd have a ton of extra strength up front for no reason (ie its not driving the car anymore). Plus, then I'd still be super limited on suspension/braking mods since the wbody platform just doesn't have much aftermarket support in that category.
04-10-2011, 08:38 AM
#4
Wassup Bumpin? I just caught this new thread of yours. Have you found anything yet? I dont think the convertibles have too much extra bracing, not in the floor anyway... its in the door posts..
Another reason the tires stuck out so much on Mr. Moss's car is because the F-bodies have the widest rearend of darn near all Gm cars.. wider than G body and S series trucks. Im almost tempted to say A bodies too, or close.
That was the reason I used a C4 (1996 Vette) rear end.
Front wheel drive cars (yours and mine imparticular) seem wider in the front than the rear. If, if you wanted to skip the fender flare work, you could have the Camaro rear narrowed, then do a mini tub job on the wheel wells once its installed in your Monte... But I wonder if the mini tub parts are out there ready for purchase.. or youde probably do better just fabbin the extra metal yourself. You have a good head on your shoulders..
One more point of interest is that on Mr. Moss's car, they stretched the front fenders/ moving the wheel well forward, to make the wheelbase difference work..
Another reason the tires stuck out so much on Mr. Moss's car is because the F-bodies have the widest rearend of darn near all Gm cars.. wider than G body and S series trucks. Im almost tempted to say A bodies too, or close.
That was the reason I used a C4 (1996 Vette) rear end.
Front wheel drive cars (yours and mine imparticular) seem wider in the front than the rear. If, if you wanted to skip the fender flare work, you could have the Camaro rear narrowed, then do a mini tub job on the wheel wells once its installed in your Monte... But I wonder if the mini tub parts are out there ready for purchase.. or youde probably do better just fabbin the extra metal yourself. You have a good head on your shoulders..
One more point of interest is that on Mr. Moss's car, they stretched the front fenders/ moving the wheel well forward, to make the wheelbase difference work..
04-10-2011, 09:05 AM
#5
.
The other thing with that would be the front end- the stock cradle (just a big box shape) would make it difficult to install a RWD transmission, and then you'd have a ton of extra strength up front for no reason (ie its not driving the car anymore). Plus, then I'd still be super limited on suspension/braking mods since the wbody platform just doesn't have much aftermarket support in that category.[/QUOTE]
That whole concept is not even on the table
The other thing with that would be the front end- the stock cradle (just a big box shape) would make it difficult to install a RWD transmission, and then you'd have a ton of extra strength up front for no reason (ie its not driving the car anymore). Plus, then I'd still be super limited on suspension/braking mods since the wbody platform just doesn't have much aftermarket support in that category.[/QUOTE]
That whole concept is not even on the table
04-13-2011, 06:31 AM
#6
On The Tree
The issue with the f-body being 3" shorter is not an issue, building new lower control arm mounts over the old ones and use an aftermarket torque arm mount. Relocating the springs and shock are easy after that. I hope you also decide to take advantage of the long trunk a monte carlo has, and mount your gas tank behind (not above) your rear diff. Use a newer s-10/blazer diff as well and you can have your narrowed wheel base with factory rear disk to boot.
You're right in thinking a 3800 M5 car is the best to start with, you get all the mounts you need for your engine and don't have to pay a whole lot for it. I would avoid convertibles, since the unibody you want to use from it has seen more stress on it that a coupe or t-top car has before you got it.
And I wouldn't rule out using the T-5 the V6 car would come with just yet. That's a WC T-5, same 5 spd 3rd gen V8 f-bodies & mustang 5.0's came with. It also bolts right up to youe engine and comes with the flywheel and clutch linkage you'll need. ($$$ saver) A $200 performance rebuild kit will make them handle 350 hp easy. If your built V6 isn't pushing much past 400 hp, using the 5 spd your donor car comes with should be fine.
Don't forget to fab temporary subframes for both your monte carlo upper and f-body lower that can be placed over each other and removed later. It will help maintain the shape of both peices when you have them seperate. Post pics when you get this far, looking forward to see how you do it
You're right in thinking a 3800 M5 car is the best to start with, you get all the mounts you need for your engine and don't have to pay a whole lot for it. I would avoid convertibles, since the unibody you want to use from it has seen more stress on it that a coupe or t-top car has before you got it.
And I wouldn't rule out using the T-5 the V6 car would come with just yet. That's a WC T-5, same 5 spd 3rd gen V8 f-bodies & mustang 5.0's came with. It also bolts right up to youe engine and comes with the flywheel and clutch linkage you'll need. ($$$ saver) A $200 performance rebuild kit will make them handle 350 hp easy. If your built V6 isn't pushing much past 400 hp, using the 5 spd your donor car comes with should be fine.
Don't forget to fab temporary subframes for both your monte carlo upper and f-body lower that can be placed over each other and removed later. It will help maintain the shape of both peices when you have them seperate. Post pics when you get this far, looking forward to see how you do it
04-20-2011, 05:54 AM
#7
[QUOTE=turbinesurgeon;14775714]The issue with the f-body being 3" shorter is not an issue, building new lower control arm mounts over the old ones and use an aftermarket torque arm mount. Relocating the springs and shock are easy after that.
"build new control arm mounts over the old ones"? "relocate springs and shocks"?
Huh???
And the f-body is 3 inches longer.
"build new control arm mounts over the old ones"? "relocate springs and shocks"?
Huh???
And the f-body is 3 inches longer.
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04-20-2011, 08:18 AM
#8
On The Tree
The article said they had a 3" wheelbase difference. Since they didn't modify the body length anywhere- I'm guessing they added to the floor pan (the camaro wheelbase is shorter). My thought is to either add the extra length from a section removed from a junkyard camaro chassis or to section the body and remove some of the rear seat area (I've never used the rear seats and have no need to, so room lost back there would be no big deal).
I assumed the f-body was 3" shorter off bumpin96monte's info, is he wrong?
04-20-2011, 07:34 PM
#9
^^^ ^Turbine, I would like to apoligize. I thought the Camaro was longer, but it turns out the 1994-99 Monte Carlo is longer. By apprx. 6 inches. So, on that note, I would like to retract my statement about why they pushed the Monte's wheel wells forward. I guess they did it to get the two cowls to line up better or maybe they just didnt want the motor totally submerged under cowl....But my money would have to go on the cowl alignment.
04-22-2011, 05:44 PM
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Wow, this thread attracted a lot more attention than I thought since I've been back here.
Anyways, I did find another car- I've already called and left a message today, we'll see. I know its going to be a long and expensive process- but the most time consuming chopping and fabbing is also the cheapest part, so I'd like to get started on that soon, and I'll buy performance suspension parts as I go.
I have been looking into that car as much as I can- and I honestly don't like the flared rear end- I think it looks kinda goofy. There are plenty of tube chassis drag cars running a fiberglass 5th gen body tucking massive slicks in the back- so I know there is plenty of room for a strong enough rear end and wide tires back there.
C4 vette is an IRS though right? How are they with power handling?
I've honestly been trying to avoid doing an IRS since it seems so many higher power setups convert over to a solid rear axle due to breakage problems. Plus, I don't know of any cheap donor cars to get one from anyways.
That was my thought- doing an upgraded rear end- narrow it while everything is apart, and then do some tubs. I know Jegs sells tub kits, not sure how well they'd fit up with everything else. I'd like to get some decently wide tires (like a 325, 335) and still fit within the stock body sides.
I wondered where they got the extra length from. I've got 2 thoughts on this:
-option 1 is to use the full length pan like they did and just adjust the fenders to work. The big benefit here would be being able to use bolt in camaro driveshafts, and having an all OEM strength floor pan without any extra engineering needed.
-option 2 is to go the route many of the rwd GP guys seem to go, and swap the front and rear suspension areas separately (some people even using different models of cars for donors). The advantage to this would be an easier swap (ie not having to brace the car so much to keep it from getting out of whack by only cutting out 1/3 of the floor pan at a time)- but the downside would be needing some extra engineering work to make sure I'm not losing rigidity in the car's floorpan section (definitely would have to do some subframe connectors modified to fit the new length).
Definitely plan to, since I'd rather go with an aftermarket tank anyways.
I'll have to look into that. Brakes don't really matter since they're going to get upgraded anyways. I already have the 14" CTSV brakes for the front, so I can't really leave the rears stock. Not going to go too wild since I would still like it to fit inside a 15 or 16 inch wheel to put slicks on it. How are the S10 diff's as far as strength goes?
I was under the assumption they wouldn't hold the power. I have never dyno'd my setup (especially since I'm changing it a lot); but a guy in CA has a similar setup and does about 540 whp FWD. They are shooting for 600-650 whp with some other changes. I am looking to get the thicker intercooler core from him that they are upgrading to, as well as a little more wild custom cam profile like they are running, along with other mods- so honestly I'd like to come in somewhere in the same ballpark they are.
Saving money on the trans isn't something I'm super worried about- I'd rather have something virtually bullet proof for my power level than have to keep worrying about breaking this/that in the trans like I do now. Plus, the built transmissions for the FWD guys are insane- on top of the normal $2500 or whatever for a built trans, you need a 1" GM racing drive chain that is selling for well over $1k now that they discontinued them- add in the $1500 GM Racing diff, and the $500+ for the porsche axle conversions, etc etc- its just stupid. I could easily get a T56 or a handful of other transmissions that would hold the power just fine for that kinda money going RWD.
Definitely- although I did mention another idea above after researching how some other wbodys have been RWD converted. They're chopping just the rear end/suspension area and swapping that- and then doing the same up front separately; then modifying the lower firewall/tunnel to work. That would seem to drastically cut back on the reinforcement needed to keep the car from getting out of whack, and then I wouldn't have to worry so much about body panels bolting back on correctly, and doors lining up right since those areas wouldn't really be messed with. Anybody have any thoughts on going this route?
That's another reason why I'm thinking about swapping front and rear suspension into two separate sections. I'd like some adjustability on the front end because I really want to not have the engine tucked way under the firewall like the V6 camaros have it. The V6 camaro guys have a hard enough time modding an L67's M90 supercharger to fit- and I'm going to be way over that height between the adapter for the whipple, and the IC core- so I really need the SC and TB adapter to be completely forward of the firewall.
Thanks to everyone for your comments/suggestions- please keep them coming- I'm by no means an expert at this stuff, this is my first time.
Anyways, I did find another car- I've already called and left a message today, we'll see. I know its going to be a long and expensive process- but the most time consuming chopping and fabbing is also the cheapest part, so I'd like to get started on that soon, and I'll buy performance suspension parts as I go.
Another reason the tires stuck out so much on Mr. Moss's car is because the F-bodies have the widest rearend of darn near all Gm cars
That was the reason I used a C4 (1996 Vette) rear end.
I've honestly been trying to avoid doing an IRS since it seems so many higher power setups convert over to a solid rear axle due to breakage problems. Plus, I don't know of any cheap donor cars to get one from anyways.
If, if you wanted to skip the fender flare work, you could have the Camaro rear narrowed, then do a mini tub job on the wheel wells once its installed in your Monte... But I wonder if the mini tub parts are out there ready for purchase..
One more point of interest is that on Mr. Moss's car, they stretched the front fenders/ moving the wheel well forward, to make the wheelbase difference work..
-option 1 is to use the full length pan like they did and just adjust the fenders to work. The big benefit here would be being able to use bolt in camaro driveshafts, and having an all OEM strength floor pan without any extra engineering needed.
-option 2 is to go the route many of the rwd GP guys seem to go, and swap the front and rear suspension areas separately (some people even using different models of cars for donors). The advantage to this would be an easier swap (ie not having to brace the car so much to keep it from getting out of whack by only cutting out 1/3 of the floor pan at a time)- but the downside would be needing some extra engineering work to make sure I'm not losing rigidity in the car's floorpan section (definitely would have to do some subframe connectors modified to fit the new length).
I hope you also decide to take advantage of the long trunk a monte carlo has, and mount your gas tank behind (not above) your rear diff.
Use a newer s-10/blazer diff as well and you can have your narrowed wheel base with factory rear disk to boot.
And I wouldn't rule out using the T-5 the V6 car would come with just yet. That's a WC T-5, same 5 spd 3rd gen V8 f-bodies & mustang 5.0's came with. It also bolts right up to youe engine and comes with the flywheel and clutch linkage you'll need. ($$$ saver)
Saving money on the trans isn't something I'm super worried about- I'd rather have something virtually bullet proof for my power level than have to keep worrying about breaking this/that in the trans like I do now. Plus, the built transmissions for the FWD guys are insane- on top of the normal $2500 or whatever for a built trans, you need a 1" GM racing drive chain that is selling for well over $1k now that they discontinued them- add in the $1500 GM Racing diff, and the $500+ for the porsche axle conversions, etc etc- its just stupid. I could easily get a T56 or a handful of other transmissions that would hold the power just fine for that kinda money going RWD.
Don't forget to fab temporary subframes for both your monte carlo upper and f-body lower that can be placed over each other and removed later. It will help maintain the shape of both peices when you have them seperate.
maybe they just didnt want the motor totally submerged under cowl
Thanks to everyone for your comments/suggestions- please keep them coming- I'm by no means an expert at this stuff, this is my first time.
05-06-2011, 05:30 PM
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Well, first step is done 
01 V6 automatic
I know I should've got a manual car to start with, but this was a very low price for a practically rust free southern car with just a hair under 100k miles that runs and drives just fine- the chassis was just too nice to pass up. Even considering fixing some of the problems and DD'ing it until I'm ready for the swap.
01 V6 automatic
I know I should've got a manual car to start with, but this was a very low price for a practically rust free southern car with just a hair under 100k miles that runs and drives just fine- the chassis was just too nice to pass up. Even considering fixing some of the problems and DD'ing it until I'm ready for the swap.
05-06-2011, 08:09 PM
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In the stock location, on a stock camaro firewall and cowl, I'm sure it wouldn't.
I've seen pics of people sticking M90's on their camaro 3800's; and I'm a ton taller than that- both due to the whipple adapter and the added intercooler core, plus I need room for the inlet elbow since the blower is going to be in the standard orientation.
I'm not sure what the plan is for that yet- I know for one I want to move the engine/trans further forward, maybe lower if possible- for aesthetic reasons, and to make it easier to work on- but I'm sure I'll have to do some pretty significant firewall modding to make it work. I'm not thinking it'll be that big of a deal considering the scope of the rest of the project. I've got a 3" cowl hood, so I just need to get the blower to clear the firewall and cowl lip, and I can make an inlet adapter to work around the rest.
I've seen pics of people sticking M90's on their camaro 3800's; and I'm a ton taller than that- both due to the whipple adapter and the added intercooler core, plus I need room for the inlet elbow since the blower is going to be in the standard orientation.
I'm not sure what the plan is for that yet- I know for one I want to move the engine/trans further forward, maybe lower if possible- for aesthetic reasons, and to make it easier to work on- but I'm sure I'll have to do some pretty significant firewall modding to make it work. I'm not thinking it'll be that big of a deal considering the scope of the rest of the project. I've got a 3" cowl hood, so I just need to get the blower to clear the firewall and cowl lip, and I can make an inlet adapter to work around the rest.
