JROC

I need a new DD. For the last 5 years I've been DD a 03 Lightning. I love my truck but it's not a very practical DD. It gets horrendous MPG's and it needs another overdrive as it turn way too many RPM's on the interstate. Traditionally I'm a Ford guy but I'm very out with them, and don't want to buy another Ford. Also I know I need to just buy some little efficient 4 banger for DD duties, but I just can own a slow ride. Hell my L feels slow to me.

Anyway I want to ask a few things:

-How much do insurance companies usually charge on these cars? Are they reasonable to insure or do they tend to rape Fbody owners? For example insurance companies would rape you something god awful when I DD my Terminator. It was like twice to insure what my L is.

-What kind of realistic MPG's do M6 cars get? Do doing the basic H/C/I mods kill the MPG's? What about adding 4.10's or a better performance gear? It's been a while but I've known several people with LS1 Fbody's and it always seemed to me that their overdrive gears where better dedicated highway gears then what Ford used in Mustangs.

-How much do you have to worry about the factory rearends? Is it bad like the way you have to worry about factory Modular rods venting a block when you start to up the power?

-What other issues do these cars have? I know a little about Fody's, and my mom still owns her 99 Firebird v6 she bought new. If I'm remember right the spark plugs are hard to change. Isn't it common for electric parts like power window motors to go bad?

One thing GM generally does is build reliable, and strong motors that are great for modding, and the T56 is good stuff. Gen4's also have a properly designed suspension unlike the crap the Mustangs from the Gen4's era got.

Thanks for any help,

Jesse

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

This is entirely dependent on your age, your driving record and your location. For example, I paid almost exactly the same amount to insure (full coverage) my '02 Z28 as what I pay for an '04 Cavalier daily driver that we own. Before I sold that car this spring I was paying $325/6 months. But I'm well past 25, married, haven't had any kind of ticket in 16+ years, and get accident-free & multi-car/multi-line discounts. Only thing going against me is my location (less than a mile from Chicago, so higher rates due to that). The young (and unmarried) guys, especially ones with a rough record, pay a bunch more for a V8 F-body as compared to a normal commuter type car.

No personal experience with M6 mileage, I've never had or wanted one.

Not too much with an auto, especially a street driven one, and especially if you can keep wheel hop away with some basic suspension mods. But it sounds like you want an M6, in which case the rear is a considerable concern with sticky tires and hard launches. It's really the only weak part of the drivetrain. A4 cars have been know to 60-foot in the 1.6, 1.5, sometimes even lower range for tons of passes, or even seasons, without issues. But then you have lots of M6 cars that will break the rear at stock power levels on a sticky tire.

Power window motors are an excellent example of a problem area. Idler and tensioner pulleys tend to get noisy around ~100k miles. Power steering coolers tend to leak (on models so equipped). Sail panel paint will bubble on '99+ cars (and the very late '98s), there is a sticky covering this concern in the Paint and Body Work section. PCV system will develop vacuum leaks in the boot and lines as they age, some people like to just upgrade the entire system since it's known to suck oil (some cases are worse than others....none of mine were ever too bad). The cats tend to fail on the '00+ models (GM issued a warranty extension for this, but that has now expired), but that's only an issue if you have a sniffer test, otherwise you can just delete the codes with tuning. Cold weather piston slap at idle is a common thing but this isn't really an "issue", just an annoying sound to some people (my '02 slapped in cold weather for all 106k miles of it's life prior to me selling it, this never caused any kind of issues at all). If you were to buy a Trans Am/Formula, you'd also eventually have issues with the headlight motors and power antenna. Door panels will crack on the Pontiacs, and dash top panels tend to crack on all the 4th gens if they've spent a lot of time in the sun without being treated with proper surface protectant.

That might sound like a lot of stuff, but really they are solid cars and many of these issues are just things that happen because the cars are getting old. If you get a really low mileage one that was maintained properly, many/most of those things won't be concerns for a very long time. My low mileage '98 hasn't really been burdened by any of that, but the higher mileage '02 did develop a couple of those issues as it got older.

As far as general maintenance, the plug swap is a bit difficult on the two passenger rear plugs (#6 and #8), especially the first time. Different people have different tricks for this, but once you find the way that works best for you it's not a huge deal at all. Other general maintenance is very easy compared to many modern cars.

EDIT: Just wanted to add, I spent a bunch of years and 10s of thousands of miles daily driving my '02. It was super reliable, never even came close to leaving me stranded, was a ton of fun, rarely needed any sort of repairs, and did great even in the snow (with proper tires). It was possibly the best daily driver that I ever owned, and even MPG wasn't too bad for an A4/350hp 3500lb car. I sold the car because it was getting to an age where it needed some things and winters had really taken a toll on the undercarriage in terms of rust. I just didn't want to start putting money into a car with a crumb cake for an underside. But other than that I would have kept daily driving it forever, and would definitely consider another for a spring/summer/fall daily car if the right example came along.

JROC

^

Hey thanks for all the info. I'm looking at a few examples. I understand about having spark plugs that are hard to get to. A Lightnings plugs are a straight PITA to change. Many people like to take the blower and fuel rails off to do the job. It always seemed funny to me how a Silverado/Sierra's motor sits in the engine compartment like a Mustangs infront of the windshield and dash, where a F150's motor sits in there like a Fbody's with half of it up under the windshield and dash. lol

95Maro

My insurance is nonexistent lol.. so idk. But then again I am 22 yrs old and have tickets/ an accident so let's not use me as a reference point. Don't Judge mehh

Sixth gear in the T56 is .5, so yeah it's decent for a DD if you'll be commuting mostly on highways. I have 4.10s on mine and that affects the fuel efficiency, but it's not horrible. Eighty miles/ hr and it'll be turning just over 2.4K rpms.. city driving/ slow freeway speeds, however, and I want to cry because of how fast the fuel gauge plummets to empty We did get a better stock suspension than the sn95, but the mustangs got the interchangeability which we didn't. An sn95 can easily be given a 6spd tremec and the termi irs...

My window motors have never given me an issue, although everybody says that they're notorious.. I have yet to see it. However, I know most of us, especially me, suffer from chronically leaking T-tops. The center console is stupid easy to break, especially on the 93-96 because we have the lid that flips all the weight backward on one hinge. Engine work is a pain: it seems like half the engine is under the dash

Hmm... the electric stuff hasn't given me any issues at all, now that I think of it..
Get an F-body!


okay that's all I know.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Not sure if I would say "most", as none of my four 4th gens have ever had significant leaks at the t-tops. Sure, if you apply direct pressure to them with a pressure washer you'll get some seepage, but I've never had issues with leaks based on rain or normal hand washing myself.

Perhaps your weather stripping isn't sealing well enough any longer. The weather stripping can get dried out and cause leaks, this can be accelerated by sun exposure if you often drive with the tops off in lots of sunlight. You can greatly extend the life of this rubber with good quality protectant for the seals.

95Maro

you're right: "most" isn't the word but.. mine leak in heavy rain and with just the pressure from my garden hose

JROC

Thanks guys!

I'm actually looking very forward to the T-Tops. I know the hardtop cars are a stiffer platform, but unless you go way back to the Foxbody days you were stuck with a hardtop or vert in a Mustang which is what I'm use to. Besides that's what SFC's are for. I've been reading that the MWC's are very good SFC's for Fbody's? I always liked the T-Tops. In fact they were the reason my mom got her Firebird. She wanted a vert, but my dad didn't want her to get one because he thought they were dangerous in a wreck or rollover so they compromised and got her a 99 M5 Firebird. It was pretty impressive I always thought for a v6 car.

I was wanted a higher mileage car for the cheaper price, but I have found this 02 Prewter SS with just over 15K for right under $16K that is really calling me hard. I also found a white 00 with 60 something thousand miles for right over $12K and both a M6 cars. If I'm not mistaken the 01/02 cars are the most desirable because they have the LS6 intake manifold? Anything else upgraded on the 01/02's compared to the older model LS1 cars?

95Maro, I bet 4.10's in a torquey LT1 car makes for a very entertaining ride? lol

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

There were some upgrades, and then there were some downgrades.

The general LS1 owner usually thinks of the '01+ cars as being more desirable, as they tend to make just a tiny bit more power stock (thanks to the LS6 intake, updated exhaust manifolds [2000+], and marginally better casting of the 241 heads....but once ported, all LS1 heads are equal). But there are downsides to the later models as well, and whether or not these matter usually depends on personal preference.

I've owned every model year other than 2001, and I can tell you that the best answer is to always get the nicest condition example you can find for your budget. The differences between the model years are not nearly significant enough to justify getting a newer model if you can find an older one for the same money that's in better condition. There was nothing magical about my '02 car, nothing that made me like it better than the '98 or '99 or '00 cars that I own/owned.

Personally, I tend to prefer the '98s because I like the Auburn limited slip better than the Torsen on the later models, and because the majority of this model year will not need the roof panel to be replaced (unlike '99+). '98s also have a much more accurate temp gauge, stronger flex plate (A4) than '01+, and bigger stock injectors than '99-'00. There are also a couple of minor cosmetic areas where GM got cheaper in the later years, so the '98-'00 cars have a few items that are nicer (window trim, rear view mirror, and for '98 or '98/'99 door bottom outer weatherstrip and hood insulator).

Some people don't like the '98s due to their one-year-only PCM that isn't as advanced as the later models, but really this isn't much of a concern for an experienced tuner unless you're planning a major forced induction type build, and obviously if the car was going to stay stock then this isn't even a point of consideration. The '98s still have the old metal gas tank as well, which some people see as less desirable than the newer plastic tank. You can use any year heads on any other year LS1, but the '98s had a specific valve cover and coil pack mounting arrangement, so if you wanted to put newer head castings on a '98 you'd also need to get the newer valve covers and coil mounting rails/hardware. As mentioned earlier though, all LS1 heads have exactly the same potential once ported, so if you aren't planning on upgraded castings (such as LS6 or aftermarket), then there is no reason to swap to the newer castings (853, 241) since the old 806s will do just as well in the hands of the same head porter (thus no need to source all the hardware to swap to the newer castings). The PCV lines and PCV valve mounting location are a bit different on the '98, but there is no real advantage or disadvantage to this. Many people upgrade to the LS6 PCV system anyway, which is not present on any year LS1 car stock.

Exhaust manifolds (plus revised cats/Y-pipe) were updated in 2000 from stainless steel to cast iron; they don't look as nice on the newer models but they do flow a bit better. Doesn't matter either way if you plan on headers. For model year 2000, the manifolds are specific to only this year, as it was the last year for EGR (due to a cam swap for '01+) but first year for the new cast iron design. So for '00 only, there is an open EGR port on the passenger side manifold (this provisional area is still present on the '01+ manifolds, but not drilled out).

The '01+ LS1s received a less aggressive cam profile from the LQ4/9 truck engine, though it does seem to deliver a bit more low end torque being a truck profile. Not a big difference either way, especially if you plan a cam swap later. These later engines also received the upgraded LS6 oil pump but, again, if you're planning a cam swap this can be changed at the same time on any year LS1.

The only real advantage of the '01+, to me, is the LS6 intake. But this is easy enough to add to an earlier model.

The prices on the '01/'02 cars do tend to be a bit higher specifically because, for the reasons listed above, many people find them to be more desirable and simply because they are newer. But I wouldn't ever recommend holding out for one thinking you're getting a vastly superior car, as the differences are rarely a major deal for most applications. Better to get the best condition car that you can for your money, and prioritize the options that are hardest to change, such as color, interior, trans type, trim level. All the model year specific stuff can always be swapped onto a different year.

JROC

Sir you are being very helpful and I very much appreciate it.
That's very neat, and in depth info. I didn't know that Fbody's had Torsion diffs much less an Auburn. Also things like the gas tank and PCM are things that are probably not well known other than to a very knowledgeable Fbody fan.

I've heard that some of the early LS1's tend to burn a little more oil than they should. Is this true, or are they all about the same on the oil they will burn off?

I have a few other questions: I've been reading where ported 243 heads(I believe the LS2 casting?) is a great budget head upgrade. If I'm not mistake though a LS2 uses a 4" bore where a LS1 uses a 3.9" bore. So will any LS heads work on a stock bore LS1 or will you start to run into valve clearance issues on the bigger bore blocks? I believe a LS7 uses a 4.125" with a 4" stroke so I'm guessing a LS7 head wouldn't work on a stock bore LS1? Doesn't a LS3 gain it's extra displacement over a LS2 with a larger bore while using the same stroke?

Just from noticing cars in adds it looks like the 00's must of got the radio controls on the steering wheel. Is this correct or is that a Monsoon feature? Is the Monsoon a pretty good factory system? I want to say that I say a picture where it had an auxiliary port?

What is a good rearend upgrade for a durable/strong piece that has good street manners, but won't break the bank account? Is there a better budget option than say a Moser or Strange 9" or 12 Bolt from a value perspective?

Again thank you very much for your very detailed posts.

EDIT:
To add some more questions that I had:

I've read that there are castle ports and rectangle ports in LS heads. If I'm not mistaken the LS1 had castle port heads where the newer LS motors(I think LS1 and LS6's are called Gen3 SBC motors and the other newer LS motors are Gen4 SBC motors?) use rectangle ports? Is there a big advantage to one over the other? I'd assume the newer heads would be better flowing?

Why has the smaller bore 5.3 truck motor become so popular in Fbody's? I know they can make very good power as is obvious in the GM truck, but you would think the large bore motor would be more desirable unless the smaller bore block are just smaller and better able to handle a big shot or some FI? I'm sure the truck motors are a better budget motor?

95Maro

sure, if by "entertaining" you mean tractionless... lol
first gear is almost useless.. well, was*

Absolutely awesome once I learned to launch, though: I've left a couple G37 drivers around here confused after a stop sign sprint... gears and an mgw shifter are a great combo

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Glad to help. I've spent the past 15+ years with these cars; maintaining, modifying and driving them. Bought two of them brand new, two used. Writing all this stuff down helps me to remember it as the years go by....haha.

There are some other small differences here and there, it's hard to remember everything all at once. The throttle body cam on the earlier engines was smaller, so the throttle would open more/faster with less foot action than on the later ones (you'd never really notice this unless you drove them back-to-back, which I used to do sometimes when I owned the '98 and '02 together). This doesn't represent any actual performance difference as the throttle body bore is the same, it's just a difference in overall pedal travel. Some of the earlier '98s came with these "fender guards" tucked behind the mounting tabs of the front fenders to prevent jacking damage (not visible unless you are under the car). They can be added to any year, but I've never seen them on the '99+ cars stock. The AIR pump feed line is plumbed into the factory air box starting in model year 2000 and up, but this was not the case for '99 and earlier (only matters in terms of replacement aftermarket air lids and getting the correct one.) Coolant level sensors were not present on the '02 models. Power steering coolers were not standard until 2000 or 2001 (can't remember which), except for SS/WS6/Firehawk models which all received the PS cooler starting in 1998 (this isn't much of a "cooler" at all, and they all seem to be failing as they get older, something I mentioned in an earlier reply. There is a massive sticky regarding this issue in the General Maintenance section if you wanted to read up further.) Certain options like exterior and interior colors and fabric patterns (for cloth) were different depending on model year, also some different wheel options starting in model year 2000 (both for SS and Z28). Some of the optional SS equipment was changed or added to over the years, but the base SS package remained the same (other than wheels) from '99-'02 ('98s had a one-year-only specific muffler/tail pipe).

Can't say that I have ever experienced this. The only LS1 I ever owned that burned significant amounts of oil was my '00 WS6, but not until after I did a cam swap. I've heard of this happening to others as well (oil usage after cam swaps), perhaps something to do with changes in cylinder pressure and how this affects ring sealing. The other LS1s I owned all had/have the stock cam, and have never used any significant amount of oil.

Often times, people will find that any minor oil consumption is happening through the PCV system. There are upgrades that can be done (LS6 PCV conversion, updated PCV valve from GM, "vertical PCV mod", etc.) and/or "catch cans" that can be installed.

I mentioned piston slap earlier.....just as a point of reference, my '02 was by far the worst in this regard of all the LS1s I have owned. The '98, '99, and '00 were all almost totally quiet in comparison (using the same oil).

243s are the LS6 casting (Gen III), and yes this is a very popular upgrade for budgets that don't allow for aftermarket castings. These heads would require the same sort of valve covers/coil mounting hardware as the other '99+ LS1 heads. If you wanted to go with a factory casting other than what is original to your engine, 243 would be a great choice. Otherwise, if you wanted to stick with an LS1 casting, as mentioned above there would be no advantage to using any one casting over any other (in terms of 806/853/241), other than picking a casting that allows you to stick with the original coil mounting hardware (853 and 241 are interchangeable, as well as the 243 LS6 casting in this regard, while 806 use the different valve covers/coil mounts).

I'm not highly experienced with the various interchangeability or compatibility between Gen III and Gen IV items, as I've never owned a Gen IV and never swapped over any of those parts, so I don't want to give you any bad advice in that regard.

The steering wheel changed for Camaro in model year 2000, and steering wheel controls were then available. Prior to that, no Camaro had steering wheel radio controls.

IMO, the Monsoon system is pretty good for a stock system of that era, but the door and sail panel speakers tend to blow out under aggressive usage. I'm not big on modifing audio systems, so I'm far from an expert in this area, but I do remember something about the the Monsoon amp not being compatible with every aftermarket speaker due to ohm rating (2 vs. 4). You'd have to investigate this further for detailed info, as the most experience I have with this is swapping stock speakers for new stock speakers, which is simple and obviously requires no modifications at all.

Most people will tell you to just go straight to the 9" and be done with it, especially for an M6 car. Doing things to try and make a stock rear stronger is usually money wasted in the long term for the manual guys. I have always been an A4 guy myself, and have had great luck with the stock rears even using much higher stall speeds, sticky tires, etc. Even with a hard launch, the A4 is simply not as violent as the manual trans, therefore we can get by with a weaker rear and still get 1.6 or better short times pass after pass.

Speaking of which, I believe there may be some differences in the clutch hydraulics between the various model years, but again I've never had an M6 version so I'm no expert on what those differences might be. You'd have to do some research on that.

Yes, LS1s are Gen III and use the "castle/cathedral" port heads. There are people who feel the rectangle ports are better. I don't necessarily disagree, but the difference/potential improvement may be overstated in some applications. It's best for you to investigate this and come to your own conclusion based on what you intend to build and what your budget/goals are.

My personal guess is that it's much easier to find a good used 5.3L than a 5.7L F-body/C5 engine. So if someone wanted to save on rebuild costs, or is doing a conversion on a car that didn't originally come with an LS-engine (and thus doesn't have a 5.7L core in the first place), it'd be cheaper/easier to get a good running truck 5.3L and go from there.

Iron truck blocks are also popular with the FI crowd due to increased block strength over the aluminum. Having said that, I think you'd find that the stock aluminum LS1 or LS6 block can handle quite a bit more power than most people will ever throw at it.

bad_408_vert

iTrader: (6)

This should be a sticky!

I was just reading to see how much I know f bodies.
RPM definitely covered it all as far as ownership and reliability is concerned.

Any type of FI or big hp obviously will be a big variable.