Why do you think the 4th Generation didn't sell as well as it should have?
03-01-2008, 05:10 AM
#1
Why do you think the 4th Generation didn't sell as well as it should have? Title says it all. Here we are 15 years after it's introduction and I think the 4Gen f-body's still looks as fresh today as they did back then. Of coures the LT1's look a little more dated, especially the ram-nosed Trans Ams but their styling was so futuristic that I think they've held up well. Don't believe me? If you can find a well maintained LT1 car they look sharp (insert ex-SS-ve's LT1 Camaro here).
But back to the question. Were the cars over-priced? Was there a quality control issue? Performance issue? What was it? It's not like the 2Gen and 3Gen were screamers but they sold incredibly well compared to the 4Gens. Think of the stock performance of the 4Gens and the current technology built into them and you have a killer package; 60's muscle car performance with modern comforts and reliability. So, why didn't they sell better?
But back to the question. Were the cars over-priced? Was there a quality control issue? Performance issue? What was it? It's not like the 2Gen and 3Gen were screamers but they sold incredibly well compared to the 4Gens. Think of the stock performance of the 4Gens and the current technology built into them and you have a killer package; 60's muscle car performance with modern comforts and reliability. So, why didn't they sell better?
03-01-2008, 09:35 AM
#2
overpriced compared to the competition. The trend was pushing away from heavy sports cars, remember all the talk about gas mileage being a big thing just a few years BEFORE the big spikes in gas prices?
Add to that big cities were starting to suffer heavy traffic problems and parking issues and it just compounded on the image of a sports car. My generation would have been the ideal market to sell the car to, just as my father's market was the 2nd gen/3rd gen, but when you compare prices, the 4th gen wasn't in that price range. All the while my generation was getting hammered by the small agile quick car concepts, racing games featured smaller quick agile imports and you begin to see how the f-body disappeared from North America's view of fast in the pop culture.
What's happened though is that in it's time overlooked, it's carried a sort of mystique to it that only now people have realized that they were amazing cars. Especially knocked down in price used. No one really realized just how fast these cars really were except those that followed the cars closely and those that bought them knowing full well what it was. I have the occasional import pull up beside my car thinking it's not that fast (3rd gen stigma) but the way it pulls on the top end and how well it reels cars in on the top end at the track really freak people out.
Add to that big cities were starting to suffer heavy traffic problems and parking issues and it just compounded on the image of a sports car. My generation would have been the ideal market to sell the car to, just as my father's market was the 2nd gen/3rd gen, but when you compare prices, the 4th gen wasn't in that price range. All the while my generation was getting hammered by the small agile quick car concepts, racing games featured smaller quick agile imports and you begin to see how the f-body disappeared from North America's view of fast in the pop culture.
What's happened though is that in it's time overlooked, it's carried a sort of mystique to it that only now people have realized that they were amazing cars. Especially knocked down in price used. No one really realized just how fast these cars really were except those that followed the cars closely and those that bought them knowing full well what it was. I have the occasional import pull up beside my car thinking it's not that fast (3rd gen stigma) but the way it pulls on the top end and how well it reels cars in on the top end at the track really freak people out.
03-01-2008, 04:01 PM
#4
I'll tell you my feeling about it. Remember that the Mustang still sold VERY well during the period of the f-body 4Gen. I feel that the Camaro and Firebird lost thier image. Even though GM still made commercials about them they were still an invisible car. Mustang still has its aura since its inception. It even survived the Mustang II era. But for some reason the 4Gen's fell off of the radar in the 90's. I think they were over-priced as well. Or at least not very competitively priced. But I'd still rather pay more for a Camaro than less for a Mustang.
03-03-2008, 01:43 AM
#6
^^^All the above points are true, but don't forget Ford marketed the Mustangs towards women. As far as price, I think the 4th gens were competively priced. The Z28 was only 2-3k more than the GT, but you got IMO more for your money. You got more hp, better handling and the same if not better gas mileage. If you think I'm wrong about the women in mustangs, look at who's driving the majority of mustangs you pass and you'll see why the mustang outsold the F-Body. We still have the 5th gen coming and maybe the people who passed up on the 4th gens won't make that mistake again and hopefully this year will be the year that the Camaro out sales the Mustang.
03-03-2008, 02:14 AM
#7
The UAW only postponed the re-emergence of the Camaro. Sales were in decline for the latter half of the 4th gen years compared to stangs. If the car sold in high volume, you can bet that GM would have kept pushing it out. One only has to look at the sales numbers leading into 02 to see how bad of a decline it was.
I have my 02 SS collector's pamphlet that indicates history and sales since the 1st gen to 00.
In 00 only 45417 camaros were made. In 94, sales numbers were almost triple that at 119000...
Aside from production issues or late starts to the production year, the f-body was an easy 100k+ seller. By the mid 90's the numbers were dropping steadily. 96 saw 60000 cars made and 97 fewer than that... Not because they couldn't make them, but because there just was dwindling demand.
I have my 02 SS collector's pamphlet that indicates history and sales since the 1st gen to 00.
In 00 only 45417 camaros were made. In 94, sales numbers were almost triple that at 119000...
Aside from production issues or late starts to the production year, the f-body was an easy 100k+ seller. By the mid 90's the numbers were dropping steadily. 96 saw 60000 cars made and 97 fewer than that... Not because they couldn't make them, but because there just was dwindling demand.
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03-03-2008, 09:41 PM
#8
And that's the rub for me. I can't understand how a car like the 4Gen f-body, with all of the pluses that it comes with, didn't sell better than it did. There is very little about the 4Gen to complain about, to me anyway, and I am just left scratching my head that the Mustang of that time sold better.
03-03-2008, 10:12 PM
#9
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And that's the rub for me. I can't understand how a car like the 4Gen f-body, with all of the pluses that it comes with, didn't sell better than it did. There is very little about the 4Gen to complain about, to me anyway, and I am just left scratching my head that the Mustang of that time sold better.
03-03-2008, 10:33 PM
#10
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I would attribute it to poor marketing which caused a decline in sales. I remember the LT1 z28s as a kid but never remember hearing about the 98-02 years at all. Of course I was much younger then and didn't care so much about cars but I do remember hearing/seeing Mustangs all the time.
03-03-2008, 11:35 PM
#11
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Yeah I would have to agree that you def see more chicks in the Mustangs than any of the f-bods. Almost seems like the women flock to the guys that drive the Mustangs too for some reason even tho the LS1 would spank the hell out of it. I have an 02 WS6 but even that and the SS seem to turn more heads than a Mustang GT or Cobra. For where I live, theres not alot of f-bods around so when I have my car out ppl stare like they have no clue what it is and I get compliments all the time....so for cars that are 6+ years old and still have that fresh look, you cant beat it. As far as price, very low 30's new really wasnt that bad. You cant touch a new Corvette for mid to upper 40's. Personally, I like the looks of my WS6 better than a Vette. Also, you see alot of Mustangs with body kits, etc which to me really isnt a "muscle car". The T/A's and Camaros really dont need much to have that "damn" look to them...11" rear rims and 315's make a huge difference in the stance of our cars as well. I guess too, you see the whole ricer thing coming about around those years so our cars werent paid as much attention too. I just cant see the point in putting that much $$ into a 4cyl, although some are pretty quick but take that same amount and put it into a LS1 and u have one hell of an animal. With the new motors that are out now in the C6 Vette and ZO6, I would kill to have either one of those sitting under the hood of my 4th gen. But with gas going the way it is, I doubt we're gonna see the mini hp war go much further. (Dont kill me for posting in here and not having a Camaro but very interesting thread)
03-04-2008, 04:43 PM
#12
We have a couple of younger LS1 Trans Am drivers at our get togethers, Miss Trans Am and Juicy A. You should hear Miss Trans Am when we look back at the row of Mustangs lined up with each other. She gets a mean glaring look in her eyes and says one word, "pussies". Thank god there are women that don't get the Mustang thing either.
03-04-2008, 06:41 PM
#13
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I would say demand is a huge factor in the reasons the 4th gen didn't do so well in sales numbers and in popularity. to me it's like the 4th gens were a symbol to those that really knew what they were and to those that didn't just a over priced sports car. Heck i can remember being in high school and wanting a 4th gen but the price was just way to much compared to that of a similar car (of course the mustang)....but with all that said, the 4th gen lost it's appeal cause of another reason, the marketplace pressure of outdated technology as far as development and sales comparisons (to the mustang once again)...there is just sooo many variables that exist that it can't be said to be one single component that lead to the demise of the 4th gens though, we can guess as much as we want but the real answer is just non-existent for the most part.
03-05-2008, 04:31 AM
#14
I'd say because GM didn't invest any $$$ into the 4th gen. GM did a **** poor job of marketing these cars, IMO. They didn't advertise them at all past 1998. And I think they should've gotten a complete restyle and redesign when they introduced the LS1 in 1998. Coupes need a restyle every 4 years to stay fresh, since styling is the main reason people buy them.
Other factors include the low seat position combined with the huge doors made them really hard to get in and out of. And you can't see out of them.
Other factors include the low seat position combined with the huge doors made them really hard to get in and out of. And you can't see out of them.
03-05-2008, 12:40 PM
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1. The f-body was not marketed well. I never saw a commercial for the 98-02 Camaro and there were only 3 commercials made for the WS6.
2. The price for a base Z jumped from $23k in 1997 (which was not a bad price) to over $25k for the 98.
3. Alot of people saw the horsepower numbers and the 5.7L and assumed that it got terrible gas mileage (which we all know is not true)
4. The final reason for the death of the 4th gen was a combination of two things
1. Side impact beams...The government made a new law that in 2003 all cars sold in the US had to have side impact beams and the f-body's doors had no room for side impact beams to be retro fitted neccitating a redesign.
2. GM signed a contract in the 80's saying that the f-body would be built in the plant in Canada until somewhere around 2010. The only way they could get out of this contract was if the f-body was discontinued.
Sorry for the long post, but just like you I didn't understand why GM would stop making such an awesome car. The biggest thing was that the Combined sales of the Camaro and Firebird were less than half of the sales of the Mustang.
2. The price for a base Z jumped from $23k in 1997 (which was not a bad price) to over $25k for the 98.
3. Alot of people saw the horsepower numbers and the 5.7L and assumed that it got terrible gas mileage (which we all know is not true)
4. The final reason for the death of the 4th gen was a combination of two things
1. Side impact beams...The government made a new law that in 2003 all cars sold in the US had to have side impact beams and the f-body's doors had no room for side impact beams to be retro fitted neccitating a redesign.
2. GM signed a contract in the 80's saying that the f-body would be built in the plant in Canada until somewhere around 2010. The only way they could get out of this contract was if the f-body was discontinued.
Sorry for the long post, but just like you I didn't understand why GM would stop making such an awesome car. The biggest thing was that the Combined sales of the Camaro and Firebird were less than half of the sales of the Mustang.
03-05-2008, 12:51 PM
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nearly ZERO marketing for the LS1 years, besides some dark commercials for the WS6 in 98
too high of a price for its intended market, and too close to vette price for top of line f-bodies
bad image from the 3rd gens
mustang was flatout cheaper, and the general market doesn't care about HP that much
too high of a price for its intended market, and too close to vette price for top of line f-bodies
bad image from the 3rd gens
mustang was flatout cheaper, and the general market doesn't care about HP that much
03-05-2008, 01:16 PM
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nearly ZERO marketing for the LS1 years, besides some dark commercials for the WS6 in 98
too high of a price for its intended market, and too close to vette price for top of line f-bodies
bad image from the 3rd gens
mustang was flatout cheaper, and the general market doesn't care about HP that much
too high of a price for its intended market, and too close to vette price for top of line f-bodies
bad image from the 3rd gens
mustang was flatout cheaper, and the general market doesn't care about HP that much
mustang has a marketing machine behind it, and seems to thrive on a different perception.
F bodies seem to conjur images of white trash and death metal.
lol... fine with me
03-05-2008, 02:22 PM
#19
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1. The f-body was not marketed well. I never saw a commercial for the 98-02 Camaro and there were only 3 commercials made for the WS6.
2. The price for a base Z jumped from $23k in 1997 (which was not a bad price) to over $25k for the 98.
3. Alot of people saw the horsepower numbers and the 5.7L and assumed that it got terrible gas mileage (which we all know is not true)
4. The final reason for the death of the 4th gen was a combination of two things
1. Side impact beams...The government made a new law that in 2003 all cars sold in the US had to have side impact beams and the f-body's doors had no room for side impact beams to be retro fitted neccitating a redesign.
2. GM signed a contract in the 80's saying that the f-body would be built in the plant in Canada until somewhere around 2010. The only way they could get out of this contract was if the f-body was discontinued.
Sorry for the long post, but just like you I didn't understand why GM would stop making such an awesome car. The biggest thing was that the Combined sales of the Camaro and Firebird were less than half of the sales of the Mustang.
2. The price for a base Z jumped from $23k in 1997 (which was not a bad price) to over $25k for the 98.
3. Alot of people saw the horsepower numbers and the 5.7L and assumed that it got terrible gas mileage (which we all know is not true)
4. The final reason for the death of the 4th gen was a combination of two things
1. Side impact beams...The government made a new law that in 2003 all cars sold in the US had to have side impact beams and the f-body's doors had no room for side impact beams to be retro fitted neccitating a redesign.
2. GM signed a contract in the 80's saying that the f-body would be built in the plant in Canada until somewhere around 2010. The only way they could get out of this contract was if the f-body was discontinued.
Sorry for the long post, but just like you I didn't understand why GM would stop making such an awesome car. The biggest thing was that the Combined sales of the Camaro and Firebird were less than half of the sales of the Mustang.
#2 is completely incorrect!!! In 1998 the base price for a Z28 was not even close to $25k. My '99 Z28 had a base Z28 price of just under $21,000. $25k is right around SS base price!
03-07-2008, 09:43 AM
#20
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A Better Question ! A better question would be why after many years of building up a popular product such as the Camaro would a large corporation suddenly decide to simply stop producing a profitable commodity . The company alleged that its product simply wasn't good enough to be competitive so they just decided to kill it . People , I'm sorry but that's just not the WHOLE truth . Buried deep within the corporation archives lies the records that reveal the truth . And one day in the distant future someone in the know will reveal the real reason why General Motors decided to kill the two most powerful muscle cars or pony cars in history . If it was as they alleged then all they would have had to do was kill off either the Camaro or the Firebird but not both . No my friends, GM is hiding the REAL reason . After much in fighting the decision was made to rescind the cancelled Pony car & the Camaro was reborn . The in fighting has continued until this very day . That's what has caused the long delay . That and the fact that everything it seems has conspired to kill off the Camaro before it even arrives . When it was first announced that the Camaro was to be discontinued was there an outcry like there was when Ford was going to replace the Mustang with the Probe ? Hell no ! Most all of the Camaro & Firebird enthusiast sat quietly by & simply let it happen , so we all got what we deserved. Well now its too late .