Mating a SBC/BBC Trans (T10, Muncie, Richmond, TKO) with an LS motor
03-18-2013, 05:24 PM
#42
OK, the "dirty little secret" about this adaptation is that the flywheel was intended for a truck clutch that's 11.5-11.74". I dont think that clutch pressure plate will fit in a 621 bell. The result of the 11" clutch is that about 1/2" of the inside of the disc does not contact the cutout center of the truck flywheel. I have not heard of anyone having issues with reasonable hp, but at 800hp, you might have an issue with contact area. The pressure is the same, contact area is smaller, might result in premature wear.
I have no idea what you mean by the bolt pattern didn't line up. You have to remove the dowel pins.
Other options would be to try the truck clutch which would require a truck bell housing and a spacer for the larger truck bearing retainer diameter.
If you go with a more exotic clutch, keep in mind about the contact area on the Sachs 1050 flywheel.
I have no idea what you mean by the bolt pattern didn't line up. You have to remove the dowel pins.
Other options would be to try the truck clutch which would require a truck bell housing and a spacer for the larger truck bearing retainer diameter.
If you go with a more exotic clutch, keep in mind about the contact area on the Sachs 1050 flywheel.
Last edited by garys 68; 03-28-2013 at 12:40 PM.
03-18-2013, 09:10 PM
#43
Ok thanks you explained it alot better than what I was trying to say. And it makes sense about the larger truck clutch working. I did note that the bolt pattern was the same for the SBC clutch. I'm leaning on just doing a flywheel/clutch rxt twin disk package from McLeod. Ill prob sell the Sachs 1050 if anyone is interested
04-01-2013, 10:31 PM
#45
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Does anyone see a problem with using an LS1 flywheel/pressure plate and an old school bbc clutch disc? I'm trying to mate a 10-spline Muncie to an LS using a BBC 621 bell. EDIT: I suppose I should mention that I want to be able to use a lightweight flywheel and not have to use the truck flywheel. I have a hydraulic TOB, so geometry is not a problem. I'm aware that the disc will run off the input shaft splines a bit, but I doubt it will be a problem.
I believe that I can use a late model Mustang disc, but I figured I'd ask, so I have some flexibility in parts.
I believe that I can use a late model Mustang disc, but I figured I'd ask, so I have some flexibility in parts.
04-01-2013, 10:38 PM
#46
\Just want to make sure you know....
The LS1 is drilled for a bigger pressure plate than an old school 11" chevy clutch.
The ford 10 spline disc is a different shaft diameter than the GM 10 spline.
Edit:
Just re-read, it's possible to mix and match discs and flywheel/pressure plates. If your muncie is a GM 10 spline, you can try an 11" pre 71 disc for BBC chevelle, corvette, etc. The LS1 clutch is actually about 11 1/2", so it's possible a truck disc will interchange, they're still 10 spline.
In the aftermarket, I recall checking part numbers and found a couple that would interchange (Ram?). I think they use pressure plates with multiple mounting holes.
But you still cant use a ford disc on GM input shaft.
Post your combo here if you find something new that works!
The LS1 is drilled for a bigger pressure plate than an old school 11" chevy clutch.
The ford 10 spline disc is a different shaft diameter than the GM 10 spline.
Edit:
Just re-read, it's possible to mix and match discs and flywheel/pressure plates. If your muncie is a GM 10 spline, you can try an 11" pre 71 disc for BBC chevelle, corvette, etc. The LS1 clutch is actually about 11 1/2", so it's possible a truck disc will interchange, they're still 10 spline.
In the aftermarket, I recall checking part numbers and found a couple that would interchange (Ram?). I think they use pressure plates with multiple mounting holes.
But you still cant use a ford disc on GM input shaft.
Post your combo here if you find something new that works!
Last edited by garys 68; 04-02-2013 at 08:44 AM.
04-02-2013, 07:59 AM
#47
Does anyone see a problem with using an LS1 flywheel/pressure plate and an old school bbc clutch disc? I'm trying to mate a 10-spline Muncie to an LS using a BBC 621 bell. EDIT: I suppose I should mention that I want to be able to use a lightweight flywheel and not have to use the truck flywheel. I have a hydraulic TOB, so geometry is not a problem. I'm aware that the disc will run off the input shaft splines a bit, but I doubt it will be a problem.
I believe that I can use a late model Mustang disc, but I figured I'd ask, so I have some flexibility in parts.
I believe that I can use a late model Mustang disc, but I figured I'd ask, so I have some flexibility in parts.
Doug
04-02-2013, 06:07 PM
#48
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\Just want to make sure you know....
The LS1 is drilled for a bigger pressure plate than an old school 11" chevy clutch.
The ford 10 spline disc is a different shaft diameter than the GM 10 spline.
Edit:
Just re-read, it's possible to mix and match discs and flywheel/pressure plates. If your muncie is a GM 10 spline, you can try an 11" pre 71 disc for BBC chevelle, corvette, etc. The LS1 clutch is actually about 11 1/2", so it's possible a truck disc will interchange, they're still 10 spline.
In the aftermarket, I recall checking part numbers and found a couple that would interchange (Ram?). I think they use pressure plates with multiple mounting holes.
But you still cant use a ford disc on GM input shaft.
Post your combo here if you find something new that works!
The LS1 is drilled for a bigger pressure plate than an old school 11" chevy clutch.
The ford 10 spline disc is a different shaft diameter than the GM 10 spline.
Edit:
Just re-read, it's possible to mix and match discs and flywheel/pressure plates. If your muncie is a GM 10 spline, you can try an 11" pre 71 disc for BBC chevelle, corvette, etc. The LS1 clutch is actually about 11 1/2", so it's possible a truck disc will interchange, they're still 10 spline.
In the aftermarket, I recall checking part numbers and found a couple that would interchange (Ram?). I think they use pressure plates with multiple mounting holes.
But you still cant use a ford disc on GM input shaft.
Post your combo here if you find something new that works!
Wow, fast replies...thanks guys!
I will definitely post details once I get it working.
I'm not sure where I read it, but I'm glad that you told me about the differences on the Ford discs. I was going to try a 2000+ Mustang disc. Maybe I should measure the input shaft diameter on my Muncie before I go any further.
OK, so if I understand you correctly, I could use the LS1 flywheel AND the LS1 pressure plate with EITHER a BBC disc or a late model truck disc, with the truck disc possibly being a better fit in terms of friction surface. Is that correct?
Hi Doug. Yes, I will be able to adjust--I have an aftermarket TOB with shims to set the gap. It seems like that should work okay.
04-04-2013, 05:41 PM
#54
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Should be GM, but I will know for sure once my 621 BH gets here. Just got my LS7 pilot bearing, and that fits nicely, so that also points to the trans being GM.
04-04-2013, 07:54 PM
#56
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I wasn't until this thread! I knew that I had a Muncie that was swapped (had to be...casting # says this is a 63-65 MY trans) into a 70's Camaro...I had read somewhere that I could use a 2000+ Mustang clutch disc (since my trans is a 10-spline and doesn't use a modern GM clutch disc). As it turns out, both Ford and some GM transmissions are 10-spline, but do not have interchangeable clutch discs.
Confusion ensued.....
I think all is well now. It's a GM trans, pre-26-spline input shaft. It cannot use a Ford 10-spline clutch disc, but can use a modern truck or an old school BBC disc. Clear as mud?
Confusion ensued.....
I think all is well now. It's a GM trans, pre-26-spline input shaft. It cannot use a Ford 10-spline clutch disc, but can use a modern truck or an old school BBC disc. Clear as mud?
04-04-2013, 08:28 PM
#57
A muncie trans uses either:
1. 10 spline x 1 1/8" input with a 27 spline output
or
2. 26 spline x 1 1/8" input with a 32 spline output
Generally they came in 10.5" and 11" diameters in all GM muscle cars of the 60's and early 70's.
If you're going to use the LS1 flywheel, you need to retain the pressure plate that bolts up the original LS1 flywheel and purchase the disc in 11" diameter from the muscle car era. With this package the disc will ride high on the input shaft.
In order to fix this, purchase the Sachs #nfw1050 which spaces out the flywheel further from the block. You can then use an older muscle car pressure plate and the older disc as well. This regains the stock geometry and allows the disc to ride correctly on the input shaft.
Does that clear things up?
Doug
1. 10 spline x 1 1/8" input with a 27 spline output
or
2. 26 spline x 1 1/8" input with a 32 spline output
Generally they came in 10.5" and 11" diameters in all GM muscle cars of the 60's and early 70's.
If you're going to use the LS1 flywheel, you need to retain the pressure plate that bolts up the original LS1 flywheel and purchase the disc in 11" diameter from the muscle car era. With this package the disc will ride high on the input shaft.
In order to fix this, purchase the Sachs #nfw1050 which spaces out the flywheel further from the block. You can then use an older muscle car pressure plate and the older disc as well. This regains the stock geometry and allows the disc to ride correctly on the input shaft.
Does that clear things up?
Doug
04-05-2013, 07:09 AM
#58
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A muncie trans uses either:
1. 10 spline x 1 1/8" input with a 27 spline output
or
2. 26 spline x 1 1/8" input with a 32 spline output
Generally they came in 10.5" and 11" diameters in all GM muscle cars of the 60's and early 70's.
If you're going to use the LS1 flywheel, you need to retain the pressure plate that bolts up the original LS1 flywheel and purchase the disc in 11" diameter from the muscle car era. With this package the disc will ride high on the input shaft.
In order to fix this, purchase the Sachs #nfw1050 which spaces out the flywheel further from the block. You can then use an older muscle car pressure plate and the older disc as well. This regains the stock geometry and allows the disc to ride correctly on the input shaft.
Does that clear things up?
Doug
1. 10 spline x 1 1/8" input with a 27 spline output
or
2. 26 spline x 1 1/8" input with a 32 spline output
Generally they came in 10.5" and 11" diameters in all GM muscle cars of the 60's and early 70's.
If you're going to use the LS1 flywheel, you need to retain the pressure plate that bolts up the original LS1 flywheel and purchase the disc in 11" diameter from the muscle car era. With this package the disc will ride high on the input shaft.
In order to fix this, purchase the Sachs #nfw1050 which spaces out the flywheel further from the block. You can then use an older muscle car pressure plate and the older disc as well. This regains the stock geometry and allows the disc to ride correctly on the input shaft.
Does that clear things up?
Doug
I think I'm set; thanks to everyone for the help. I'll have this info added to the first post once I confirm that it works.
04-05-2013, 10:11 AM
#59
Just one caveat. I'm not sure if the 10 spline 05 truck disc will work with the f body LS1 flywheel and pressure plate. Both the truck and f body disc are listed at around 11 1/2 to 11 3/4" diameter, and I saw this combo mentioned in one of the truck forums. Also, I havn't looked around but lots of clutches are only sold as a kit. Might take some looking to find individual parts.
As always, let us know if you find another combo that works.
As always, let us know if you find another combo that works.
04-05-2013, 06:33 PM
#60
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Hmm...good point. I have a buddy who is a SPEC dealer...I'll see if he can get them to send me just a clutch disc from a 10-spline BBC.
I need to research the truck disc. From what I understand, it should be compatible, but it sounds like there is a bit of info available on the web. I'll look into it. Thanks!
I need to research the truck disc. From what I understand, it should be compatible, but it sounds like there is a bit of info available on the web. I'll look into it. Thanks!
