Please Help Me With My WS6 LS1 To 69 Firebird Swap
08-01-2012, 01:55 AM
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Please Help Me With My WS6 LS1 To 69 Firebird Swap Hello everyone
Im new here and just starting a little journey
I have 2 cars, a 1969 Firebird and a 1998 Trans Am WS6
the WS6 is running and a daily driver. My goal is to take both cars to my mechanic and have him take engine, transmission, computer, wiring, and AC if i can from the WS6 and have him put it all into my 1969 Firebird.
I am looking at LS swap kits from
street and performance (witch is recommended in my "How to swap an LS into almost anything" book i bought)
and
http://www.brphotrods.com
In the small amount i have come across i see issues with oil pan kits hanging lower than the cross member (with would not be good considering my 69 has a lowered 2' hotchkis front suspension). as well as kits placing the engine to far forward.
From what i have see street and performance offers a wide option of kits, ones to raise the engine as well as sit it further back. As of right now im liking street and performance but i was curious if anyone had experience with there quality.
By all means if anyone with 1st gen F body LS swap experience can give me a heads up on a better option for a swap kit or how to go about this, I would love any help / input you would be willing to spare. Like i said this is kind of the start of my journey and currently i am just a tad overwhelmed being i am really just a computer nerd and am not so much mechanically inclined or term savvy.
Im new here and just starting a little journey
I have 2 cars, a 1969 Firebird and a 1998 Trans Am WS6
the WS6 is running and a daily driver. My goal is to take both cars to my mechanic and have him take engine, transmission, computer, wiring, and AC if i can from the WS6 and have him put it all into my 1969 Firebird.
I am looking at LS swap kits from
street and performance (witch is recommended in my "How to swap an LS into almost anything" book i bought)
and
http://www.brphotrods.com
In the small amount i have come across i see issues with oil pan kits hanging lower than the cross member (with would not be good considering my 69 has a lowered 2' hotchkis front suspension). as well as kits placing the engine to far forward.
From what i have see street and performance offers a wide option of kits, ones to raise the engine as well as sit it further back. As of right now im liking street and performance but i was curious if anyone had experience with there quality.
By all means if anyone with 1st gen F body LS swap experience can give me a heads up on a better option for a swap kit or how to go about this, I would love any help / input you would be willing to spare. Like i said this is kind of the start of my journey and currently i am just a tad overwhelmed being i am really just a computer nerd and am not so much mechanically inclined or term savvy.
08-01-2012, 02:26 PM
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08-01-2012, 02:39 PM
#4
In the Conversion and Hybrids forum.. There FAQ / Sticky's that have a lot of information and other project thread. .Suggest you browse them and all if not most of your question will be answered. Anything that is still a question can then be asked in a thread (Suggest you start a project thread).
Bust tip I would recommend is not to try and mix and match parts. When selecting conversion parts. stick with on Manufactor (Headers and mounts). That will cut a lot of the know problem out of your project.
Since your going to use a shop/mech... make sure they know what they are getting into and hopefully have already done some swap.
Yeah.. S&P has been around from the start of these swaps.. they make some good parts, but are costly. BRP makes a complete kit, but are based on the LH8 or CTS-V pan. would tends to mount the engine a bit high due to the depth of the pans.
Suggest you look into pans.. Holley and Mast are very good option for OEM Type cast pans. Aftermarket Steel pan.. most of them are good, but most will require remote oil Filters (check out the Autokraf or Champ pans). S&P will notch and weld your F-body pan.
That should get you started for now..
BC
BC
Bust tip I would recommend is not to try and mix and match parts. When selecting conversion parts. stick with on Manufactor (Headers and mounts). That will cut a lot of the know problem out of your project.
Since your going to use a shop/mech... make sure they know what they are getting into and hopefully have already done some swap.
Yeah.. S&P has been around from the start of these swaps.. they make some good parts, but are costly. BRP makes a complete kit, but are based on the LH8 or CTS-V pan. would tends to mount the engine a bit high due to the depth of the pans.
Suggest you look into pans.. Holley and Mast are very good option for OEM Type cast pans. Aftermarket Steel pan.. most of them are good, but most will require remote oil Filters (check out the Autokraf or Champ pans). S&P will notch and weld your F-body pan.
That should get you started for now..
BC
BC
08-01-2012, 04:08 PM
#5
As bczee suggested, use the 'stickies' for 67-69 Camaro/Firebird. They are a very good guideline to help you see what your getting into.
Just a suggestion...if you don't need either car, & you have another daily driver, I would recommend that you take on the job yourself/take your time.
I have Hotchkiss lowering, all around.
Also,I have Hooker motor adapter plates #12611-HKR & Hooker ceramic headers #2288-1HKR. You could substitute Hooker's stainless version, instead of the ceramics.
With these, I was able to reuse my stock 1998 oilpan, without modification.
For the engine mounts...I used Energy Suspension poly mounts 3.1114G
They come with a metal backing plate (which I didn't use). Other people who used these mounts, say that the engine would not lower & fit properly between the engine stands, if the metal backing plates were used. So, they didn't use the metal plates, either.
As a result of not using the backing plates, the engine will sit a bit lower than Hooker had intended. And, as a result, the alternator (if you have the driver's side/low mounted alternator) bottom bolt will have to be shaved/ground (I used a grinding wheel), to clear the crossmember.
The Hooker headers clear the steering box, windshield wiper motor, & everything else, perfectly! The bottom of the headers have great clearance.
On your Firebird, the heater core tubes need enough room to exit into the engine bay. There will not be enough room for this if you use Hooker's motor plate adapters. In this case, I converted to a big block heater core. The BB core has tubes which exit into the engine bay 1 foot farther to the passenger side (than the SB core does).
One other thing you might consider, is upgrading your stock 1st gen steering box, to the IROC (1988 or so) third gen box. Lee manufacturing in CA has the correct metric fitting adapters to make the IROC box hook up to your hoses.
I haven't completed this upgrade yet, but I hear that the difference in steering is like night & day.
If you end up doing this yourself, or with a friend's help, you will know virtually everything about your car.
Best of luck!
Just a suggestion...if you don't need either car, & you have another daily driver, I would recommend that you take on the job yourself/take your time.
I have Hotchkiss lowering, all around.
Also,I have Hooker motor adapter plates #12611-HKR & Hooker ceramic headers #2288-1HKR. You could substitute Hooker's stainless version, instead of the ceramics.
With these, I was able to reuse my stock 1998 oilpan, without modification.
For the engine mounts...I used Energy Suspension poly mounts 3.1114G
They come with a metal backing plate (which I didn't use). Other people who used these mounts, say that the engine would not lower & fit properly between the engine stands, if the metal backing plates were used. So, they didn't use the metal plates, either.
As a result of not using the backing plates, the engine will sit a bit lower than Hooker had intended. And, as a result, the alternator (if you have the driver's side/low mounted alternator) bottom bolt will have to be shaved/ground (I used a grinding wheel), to clear the crossmember.
The Hooker headers clear the steering box, windshield wiper motor, & everything else, perfectly! The bottom of the headers have great clearance.
On your Firebird, the heater core tubes need enough room to exit into the engine bay. There will not be enough room for this if you use Hooker's motor plate adapters. In this case, I converted to a big block heater core. The BB core has tubes which exit into the engine bay 1 foot farther to the passenger side (than the SB core does).
One other thing you might consider, is upgrading your stock 1st gen steering box, to the IROC (1988 or so) third gen box. Lee manufacturing in CA has the correct metric fitting adapters to make the IROC box hook up to your hoses.
I haven't completed this upgrade yet, but I hear that the difference in steering is like night & day.
If you end up doing this yourself, or with a friend's help, you will know virtually everything about your car.
Best of luck!
Last edited by gMAG; 09-17-2012 at 09:18 PM.
08-01-2012, 05:03 PM
#6
For EnergySuspension Motor mounts.. the instructions state to use the metal backing plate.. but that would be to use for the correct applicaiton of a SBC or BBC engine. When used with LS conversion plates. you can do away with them cause the swap plate will take the place of the metal backing plate..
If there was nothing to keep the poly mounts together (plates).. the mounts would seperate.
As gmag did, To get the engine to align with the frame stands and / or get the engine to the correct height you want.. you can add or remove those metal backing plates that come with the E/S mounts. There are a few ways to get the engine height right..you can also do what I did for my Chevelle. I used Tall / Narrow mounts with modified Short / Wide Frame stands. I got an extra 5/16" height.
BC
If there was nothing to keep the poly mounts together (plates).. the mounts would seperate.
As gmag did, To get the engine to align with the frame stands and / or get the engine to the correct height you want.. you can add or remove those metal backing plates that come with the E/S mounts. There are a few ways to get the engine height right..you can also do what I did for my Chevelle. I used Tall / Narrow mounts with modified Short / Wide Frame stands. I got an extra 5/16" height.
BC
08-01-2012, 05:37 PM
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Very cool
Thanks a million to you all for taking the time to give me some pointers. I appreciate the community you guys offer here.
If i were to look into doing the swap myself what would i need? (my 69 has nothing aside from the bare frame at the moment)
- Motor adapter plates
- Correct headers
- Suspension mounts
- Oil pan (If mine will not work, or i can notch the frame?)
is that all?
O and gMAG, thanks for the heads up on the steering box, that was something i had a desire to do as well
Thanks a million to you all for taking the time to give me some pointers. I appreciate the community you guys offer here.
If i were to look into doing the swap myself what would i need? (my 69 has nothing aside from the bare frame at the moment)
- Motor adapter plates
- Correct headers
- Suspension mounts
- Oil pan (If mine will not work, or i can notch the frame?)
is that all?
O and gMAG, thanks for the heads up on the steering box, that was something i had a desire to do as well
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08-01-2012, 08:04 PM
#8
Alot of folks jettison the egr system, the a.i.r system, & evap, because it unclutters the engine bay. There are reasons for keeping the egr, but I decided not to. Along with these changes, your harness will be converted to a "stand-alone", which will strip the wires which will no longer be used (such as egr, air,evap, etc). If you are no longer keeping the VATS (vehicle anti-theft system, you'll discard the BCM (body control module). There are several sponsors here who do a great job. John @ SPEARTECH did mine. I hear that Jon @ (I think it's) PSI does a great job, as well. This will cost you several hundred dollars.
You'll need a fuel pump. Either buy a tank with an internal pump, or you can create your own system with stock tank (check into a baffled tank), with a Walbro 255 external pump (or similar). Either way, you'll be assembling your own fuel lines with the proper fittings, and a regulator.
As mentioned, check out the stickies, which address these aspects.
Oh, bec of old tech, the steering stinks on these cars. I upgraded to a newer, close ratio box for the 67-69 Camaro & Firebird. This improved steering somewhat, but a little crossbreeze, or too much speed, and the car would begin to float. This is in combo with an aluminum engine which is 115lbs lighter to the front end than the iron block. A big improvement was given with the addition of a stock, front spoiler. The spoiler does a very good job of planting the front end.
(With a chuckle...) See, you're almost out of $, and the project is just getting started. As anyone else here will tell you, it's worth it!
You'll need a fuel pump. Either buy a tank with an internal pump, or you can create your own system with stock tank (check into a baffled tank), with a Walbro 255 external pump (or similar). Either way, you'll be assembling your own fuel lines with the proper fittings, and a regulator.
As mentioned, check out the stickies, which address these aspects.
Oh, bec of old tech, the steering stinks on these cars. I upgraded to a newer, close ratio box for the 67-69 Camaro & Firebird. This improved steering somewhat, but a little crossbreeze, or too much speed, and the car would begin to float. This is in combo with an aluminum engine which is 115lbs lighter to the front end than the iron block. A big improvement was given with the addition of a stock, front spoiler. The spoiler does a very good job of planting the front end.
(With a chuckle...) See, you're almost out of $, and the project is just getting started. As anyone else here will tell you, it's worth it!
Last edited by gMAG; 08-01-2012 at 08:13 PM.
