1965 Pontiac Lemans 4 door 5.3l/4L60E Build Thread
03-21-2013, 01:56 PM
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1965 Pontiac Lemans 4 door 5.3l/4L60E Build Thread Hi my name is Jim and this is my first ever Forum post...so forgive any newbee errors. I have been reading LS1 tech on and off for years. I finally got motivated to do a couple of transplants in May 2012. I was on a business trip and my only source of entertainment was my new laptop. I logged on for the first time in 4-5 years and got hooked.
This thread will be for my 1965 Pontiac Lemans 4 door - (Insert chuckles here......)
It is my shop car to collect parts and experiment on for my other car, a 1965 Pontiac Lemans Coupe. The Coupe is my first car, my dad bought it for me when I was 16 years old. During spring break, 1983, my dad, younger brother and I drove south from Michigan to find a rust free muscle car. We found it in Chattanooga Tennessee.
So that explains the purpose for the four door build.
Four door history:
I purchased it in March, 2006 for $1800.00. I drove it on the trailer in Greensboro, NC. It’s all original, 326 auto. No rust, but every vertical panel has some sort of bent, door ding or outright damage, front bumper on the passenger side was twisted into the fender.
I cleaned it up, changed all the fluids, removed 2 lbs of clay like substance from the trans pan??? Drove it for a few hundred miles, my buddies could not believe it ran and shifted like a champ.
Rev 1.0
I read about an all Pontiac show in Norwalk Ohio August 2006.The following week I had made plans to see my family in Michigan. One bs session led to another. Why not drive the new Pontiac, this was April 2006. I lived in Charlotte, NC at the time. The Food Lion Auto fair spring meet is in April, highly recommended, bought a front disc brake conversion, full stainless steel brake line set and new arm rests. I called Global west and ordered the tubular upper a arms with Del-u am bushing, and bushing for the lower. I replace all the other front pieces, ball joints etc. I went through the rear end, seals and bearings, new rear brake hardware and shoes.
I took rev 1.0 for its maiden voyage in July 2006. The handling was much improved with the new suspension. I had also installed new spring and KYB shocks at each corner.
The trip to Norwalk , Michigan and back was completely uneventful. I used a few quarts of oil, and averaged 18mpg, I was very happy.
I have over 13,000 miles on the car since the updates with only one nagging problem, every seal in the motor leaks. No need to change oil, it has a total loss oil system. Nearly 50 year old seals will eventually wear out. It was time for revision 2.0
Rev 2.0
My friends said I should park it and put an LS1 and a T56 in the coupe then update the 4 door. My idea was to use the 4 door as a test car.
June 2012: started studying the forums and buying parts. Every time I went to the parts store I purchased another item on the list. The man cave in the house was getting pretty full.
July 2012 2000 5.3L, harness, ECM, alt, a/c compressor, starter, intake and injectors $500 delivered
Corvetter balancer
Corvette water pump
Corvette thermostat and housing
Front and rear cover seal kits
GM retrofit oil pan
Oil filter
Valve cover gaskets
Intake gaskets
Engine plates from E-Bay, $29.95
Lokar throttle cable
All the electrical bits to convert the engine harness recommended by LT1swap.com
LS bellhousing
Pyre plastic LS mock up block
November-December 2012: I sold my garage and moved everything to Charleston, SC. Five of the biggests U-hauls trucks they make and three trailers later, it is all in my new shop.
January 2013 – After organizing the shop, almost, I removed the 326 and trans and removed as much of the engine made undercoating I could.
One of my purchases was the plastic LS block from Pyre(Spelling?). I also read about the luck people were having with the GM oil pan retrofit kit, it was very complete and under $150 from Summit. After a few weeks of trying and failing to make it fit, inner tie rod end clearance issues, I ordered the modified F-body pan from S&P.
I made these prototype frame stands from wood and tubing to see how everything would fit.
After one or two modifications, they lined up great. I used the $29.95 engine plates found on E-bay and a $8 small block chevy motor mound from O’Reilly’s. The motor mounts have a rib on the back which I ground off with my flapper wheel. I found if I add one more hole in the engine plate for the motor mount they line everything up perfectly.
I had about an inch of clearance from the back of the cross member to the front of oil pan sump. The inner tie rod ends still touch the pan at full lock turning right, but I will fix that in Rev 3.
I bought some 3/16” x 4” & 1/8” x 3” plate. I also found some ½” ID tubing laying around the shop. I fell in love with my hot glue gun during the wooden mock up phase so I tried it on steel.
This thread will be for my 1965 Pontiac Lemans 4 door - (Insert chuckles here......)
It is my shop car to collect parts and experiment on for my other car, a 1965 Pontiac Lemans Coupe. The Coupe is my first car, my dad bought it for me when I was 16 years old. During spring break, 1983, my dad, younger brother and I drove south from Michigan to find a rust free muscle car. We found it in Chattanooga Tennessee.
So that explains the purpose for the four door build.
Four door history:
I purchased it in March, 2006 for $1800.00. I drove it on the trailer in Greensboro, NC. It’s all original, 326 auto. No rust, but every vertical panel has some sort of bent, door ding or outright damage, front bumper on the passenger side was twisted into the fender.
I cleaned it up, changed all the fluids, removed 2 lbs of clay like substance from the trans pan??? Drove it for a few hundred miles, my buddies could not believe it ran and shifted like a champ.
Rev 1.0
I read about an all Pontiac show in Norwalk Ohio August 2006.The following week I had made plans to see my family in Michigan. One bs session led to another. Why not drive the new Pontiac, this was April 2006. I lived in Charlotte, NC at the time. The Food Lion Auto fair spring meet is in April, highly recommended, bought a front disc brake conversion, full stainless steel brake line set and new arm rests. I called Global west and ordered the tubular upper a arms with Del-u am bushing, and bushing for the lower. I replace all the other front pieces, ball joints etc. I went through the rear end, seals and bearings, new rear brake hardware and shoes.
I took rev 1.0 for its maiden voyage in July 2006. The handling was much improved with the new suspension. I had also installed new spring and KYB shocks at each corner.
The trip to Norwalk , Michigan and back was completely uneventful. I used a few quarts of oil, and averaged 18mpg, I was very happy.
I have over 13,000 miles on the car since the updates with only one nagging problem, every seal in the motor leaks. No need to change oil, it has a total loss oil system. Nearly 50 year old seals will eventually wear out. It was time for revision 2.0
Rev 2.0
My friends said I should park it and put an LS1 and a T56 in the coupe then update the 4 door. My idea was to use the 4 door as a test car.
June 2012: started studying the forums and buying parts. Every time I went to the parts store I purchased another item on the list. The man cave in the house was getting pretty full.
July 2012 2000 5.3L, harness, ECM, alt, a/c compressor, starter, intake and injectors $500 delivered
Corvetter balancer
Corvette water pump
Corvette thermostat and housing
Front and rear cover seal kits
GM retrofit oil pan
Oil filter
Valve cover gaskets
Intake gaskets
Engine plates from E-Bay, $29.95
Lokar throttle cable
All the electrical bits to convert the engine harness recommended by LT1swap.com
LS bellhousing
Pyre plastic LS mock up block
November-December 2012: I sold my garage and moved everything to Charleston, SC. Five of the biggests U-hauls trucks they make and three trailers later, it is all in my new shop.
January 2013 – After organizing the shop, almost, I removed the 326 and trans and removed as much of the engine made undercoating I could.
One of my purchases was the plastic LS block from Pyre(Spelling?). I also read about the luck people were having with the GM oil pan retrofit kit, it was very complete and under $150 from Summit. After a few weeks of trying and failing to make it fit, inner tie rod end clearance issues, I ordered the modified F-body pan from S&P.
I made these prototype frame stands from wood and tubing to see how everything would fit.
After one or two modifications, they lined up great. I used the $29.95 engine plates found on E-bay and a $8 small block chevy motor mound from O’Reilly’s. The motor mounts have a rib on the back which I ground off with my flapper wheel. I found if I add one more hole in the engine plate for the motor mount they line everything up perfectly.
I had about an inch of clearance from the back of the cross member to the front of oil pan sump. The inner tie rod ends still touch the pan at full lock turning right, but I will fix that in Rev 3.
I bought some 3/16” x 4” & 1/8” x 3” plate. I also found some ½” ID tubing laying around the shop. I fell in love with my hot glue gun during the wooden mock up phase so I tried it on steel.
03-21-2013, 02:07 PM
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1965 Pontiac Lemans 4-Door 5.3l/4L60E update The wooden mock up stand showed me the edge of the motor mount ear needed to line up with the rear hole in the cross member. You can see in the DS mount the tube aligns with the edge of the hole. I moved the upright back just far enough to clear the bold head but give enough support the tube. I then mounted them in the cross member.
Then the plastic motor, S&P oil pan and the bell housing went in. This saved a lot of time, but was getting heavy after a few in and outs.
The picture is a little off but the bottom of the cross member and oil pan are at the same level.
Very Happy!!! The holes all lined up the first time!!! Both bolts slid right in.
I found the truck exhaust manifolds, the DS worked ok, but the PS flange hit the frame.
More rummaging and I found an old 98 F-body set packed away and tried them. The PS slid right in!! I had to remove the EGR bung from the DS and install it from the bottom, but it bolted up also. HUH…I love dumb luck.
Since everything seems to be falling into place I decided to weld everything together and put the engine and trans in. I measured the location of the uprights to the bottom plate, it was about 2” inside to inside. I had a piece of 2” square tubing laying in my scrap box, yes I am a hoarder and don’t throw anything away.
Picture 30
Picture 31
Then the first problem showed up, my 20 year old mig welder that I have abused and not used for a few years didn’t want to feed wire consistently. After messing with it, I found kinks in the wire and a very old tip.
I listen to the wisdom from this and many forums. Don’t force it, take your time and it will go much faster. I bought a new spool of wire and replace the tip and it welded perfectly.
However, the mig had many operator errors, the operator is still developing skills.
Forgot to take picture of the welded stands.
Jim
Then the plastic motor, S&P oil pan and the bell housing went in. This saved a lot of time, but was getting heavy after a few in and outs.
The picture is a little off but the bottom of the cross member and oil pan are at the same level.
Very Happy!!! The holes all lined up the first time!!! Both bolts slid right in.
I found the truck exhaust manifolds, the DS worked ok, but the PS flange hit the frame.
More rummaging and I found an old 98 F-body set packed away and tried them. The PS slid right in!! I had to remove the EGR bung from the DS and install it from the bottom, but it bolted up also. HUH…I love dumb luck.
Since everything seems to be falling into place I decided to weld everything together and put the engine and trans in. I measured the location of the uprights to the bottom plate, it was about 2” inside to inside. I had a piece of 2” square tubing laying in my scrap box, yes I am a hoarder and don’t throw anything away.
Picture 30
Picture 31
Then the first problem showed up, my 20 year old mig welder that I have abused and not used for a few years didn’t want to feed wire consistently. After messing with it, I found kinks in the wire and a very old tip.
I listen to the wisdom from this and many forums. Don’t force it, take your time and it will go much faster. I bought a new spool of wire and replace the tip and it welded perfectly.
However, the mig had many operator errors, the operator is still developing skills.
Forgot to take picture of the welded stands.
Jim
03-21-2013, 02:45 PM
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1965 Pontiac Lemans 5.3L/4L60E Update Update #3
I bought all the spare parts to reseal the engine over the summer and fall.
I dis-assembled accessorier and cleaned the engine. To put the Engine in the car with the transmission, I need to change the oilpan. Problem #2 which everyone has experienced, how to remove the balancer bolt by yourself. I got a 11/16" 6 point socket and tried to hold the crank with many bars and scrap steel. Frustated I called it a day.
The next morning was Saturday, my dedicated day in the shop.
I looked at the back of the block around the valley cover and realized I had left the top bolt in the transmission mounting surface.
This is the idea I came up with:
A 3' piece of pipe on my long breaker bar and some gentle constant pressure and the bolt came right out. I am sure someone has made this, but I named it my "Crank Lock".
Finished taking the motor down and inspected the cylinder walls and cam. All looked good, so I put the new gasketsin, installed the seals in the front and rear cover and installed the oil pan,
Not bad for a 140k motor, once we drive it we will learn more.
I then installed the bell housing to the transmission to the 4L60E and installed it on the transmission. I still need to buy a torque convertor for the street. Any suggestions will be appreciated. Max 350 hp, just a street car until rev 3.0.
Installed on the welded motor mounts.
Passengers side
Drivers side
Super happy with the crossmember to the sump.
I bought all the spare parts to reseal the engine over the summer and fall.
I dis-assembled accessorier and cleaned the engine. To put the Engine in the car with the transmission, I need to change the oilpan. Problem #2 which everyone has experienced, how to remove the balancer bolt by yourself. I got a 11/16" 6 point socket and tried to hold the crank with many bars and scrap steel. Frustated I called it a day.
The next morning was Saturday, my dedicated day in the shop.
I looked at the back of the block around the valley cover and realized I had left the top bolt in the transmission mounting surface.
This is the idea I came up with:
A 3' piece of pipe on my long breaker bar and some gentle constant pressure and the bolt came right out. I am sure someone has made this, but I named it my "Crank Lock".
Finished taking the motor down and inspected the cylinder walls and cam. All looked good, so I put the new gasketsin, installed the seals in the front and rear cover and installed the oil pan,
Not bad for a 140k motor, once we drive it we will learn more.
I then installed the bell housing to the transmission to the 4L60E and installed it on the transmission. I still need to buy a torque convertor for the street. Any suggestions will be appreciated. Max 350 hp, just a street car until rev 3.0.
Installed on the welded motor mounts.
Passengers side
Drivers side
Super happy with the crossmember to the sump.
03-21-2013, 03:07 PM
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1965 Pontiac Lemans 5.3L/4L60E Update 4 I set the combo in the car and checked the angle:
I installed the 98' F-body exhaust manifolds and eveything cleared the frame.
I bought a 2001 S10 Trans mount from O'Reilly and put it on the trans. I notched the crossmember and drilled a hole. Sorry forgot to take a picture.
The angle stayed around 3.6 degrees, the car is sitting at 0.4 so for mockup purposes, 3.2 down is acceptable at this time.
Minor problem #3:
I installed plumb bobs on the crank snout, the transmission out put shaft and the rearend. I ran a string between all three and the transmission was 1/2" to the drivers side. As others have found the trans was hitting here.
10 minutes with a cut off wheel and the trans centered right up. No picture, I will box the tunnel in the next time the engine is out.
I looked through the Lokar catalog and found a few options for mounting my column shift to the transmission. They were all $45-150. Acceptable, but i wasn't sure yet. I took the selector off the Superturbine 300, cleaned it and it fit!!! Ok, what else will work...I found and cleaned the frame mound and rod...you will not believe this, but everythig lines up!!!!!!
I jumped in the car and it shifted through all the gears. One problem is that the selector only has drive and low. I will see if I can modify the column.
Good day!!
Jim
I installed the 98' F-body exhaust manifolds and eveything cleared the frame.
I bought a 2001 S10 Trans mount from O'Reilly and put it on the trans. I notched the crossmember and drilled a hole. Sorry forgot to take a picture.
The angle stayed around 3.6 degrees, the car is sitting at 0.4 so for mockup purposes, 3.2 down is acceptable at this time.
Minor problem #3:
I installed plumb bobs on the crank snout, the transmission out put shaft and the rearend. I ran a string between all three and the transmission was 1/2" to the drivers side. As others have found the trans was hitting here.
10 minutes with a cut off wheel and the trans centered right up. No picture, I will box the tunnel in the next time the engine is out.
I looked through the Lokar catalog and found a few options for mounting my column shift to the transmission. They were all $45-150. Acceptable, but i wasn't sure yet. I took the selector off the Superturbine 300, cleaned it and it fit!!! Ok, what else will work...I found and cleaned the frame mound and rod...you will not believe this, but everythig lines up!!!!!!
I jumped in the car and it shifted through all the gears. One problem is that the selector only has drive and low. I will see if I can modify the column.
Good day!!
Jim
03-21-2013, 03:17 PM
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1965 Pontiac Lemans Sheet metal install With all the good luck I was having I wanted to throw on the truck intake and see if everything cleared. I wanted to see if this cleared before I switched everything over to an LS1 intake.
I installed the intake, radiator support and front fenders:
I used the PVC pipe to check the clearance to the Truck beauty cover front mount, have about 1/4".
I called my buddy Mike over to help me install a couple of hoods. Once we remove the insulation from the GTO hood...
No clearancing of the intake needed!!! I will still remove the mounts I don't need, but good progress. We tried a Lemans hood with similiar success.
Another great day!!
Jim
I installed the intake, radiator support and front fenders:
I used the PVC pipe to check the clearance to the Truck beauty cover front mount, have about 1/4".
I called my buddy Mike over to help me install a couple of hoods. Once we remove the insulation from the GTO hood...
No clearancing of the intake needed!!! I will still remove the mounts I don't need, but good progress. We tried a Lemans hood with similiar success.
Another great day!!
Jim
03-21-2013, 03:45 PM
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1965 PontiacLemans 4-door front drive I removed all the sheet metal and started installing the front drive system.
I ordered a harmonic balancer installer, so I had time to kill until that and the ARP bolt came in.
I cleaned the front of the block and installed my new corvetter water pump and thermostat housing. I tried the truck belt tensioner, too far out. Put the corvette tensioner on my parts list.
I found the truck P/S pump was too big so I rummaged around in my pile and found the P/s pump from the S10. Bolted right on. I just need to find a remote resevoir and fittings. I have a set of HP braided lines I bought used from a race team.
I went to the local pick a part and picked up a cherokee box for $40. I cleaned it up and will install it soon.
This fall I order the Kwik performance Alt and P/S bracket. I mounted the alternator from the truck and the S10 P/S pump and it went on very easy with no issues..
Now I am all caught up with my build. On to the next project.
I have made a parts list and will start ordering tonight. Saturday is coming fast!!
Any suggestions or comments will be greatly appreciated!
If anyone knows how to make the pictures bigger, send them my way. Again, I am a newbie!!
Thanks for looking.
Jim
I ordered a harmonic balancer installer, so I had time to kill until that and the ARP bolt came in.
I cleaned the front of the block and installed my new corvetter water pump and thermostat housing. I tried the truck belt tensioner, too far out. Put the corvette tensioner on my parts list.
I found the truck P/S pump was too big so I rummaged around in my pile and found the P/s pump from the S10. Bolted right on. I just need to find a remote resevoir and fittings. I have a set of HP braided lines I bought used from a race team.
I went to the local pick a part and picked up a cherokee box for $40. I cleaned it up and will install it soon.
This fall I order the Kwik performance Alt and P/S bracket. I mounted the alternator from the truck and the S10 P/S pump and it went on very easy with no issues..
Now I am all caught up with my build. On to the next project.
I have made a parts list and will start ordering tonight. Saturday is coming fast!!
Any suggestions or comments will be greatly appreciated!
If anyone knows how to make the pictures bigger, send them my way. Again, I am a newbie!!
Thanks for looking.
Jim
03-21-2013, 08:36 PM
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I did not know they made a four door Lemans so I had to google it. Like most a bodies it looks better in the 64-67 era than later ones, and I think the lemans may be my new favorite. Since having kids I've started to wish I had gotten a similar car so I could haul the family around rather than my 70 camaro. Looking forward to seeing this thing run 
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03-22-2013, 06:17 AM
#9
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65 is my favorite. A 65 ragtop got me started on the path to the current 69, long story. You will love the way the LS performs. And you are building your first prototypes for this project. After you gain the knowledge and expertise your second or third will be production ready and perfected for the coupe. Keep up the good work.
03-24-2013, 01:51 PM
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1965 Pontiac Lemans 4-door no update Black & White
Unfortunately 4-doors just don't get any respect. Most that survived were stripped for frames and front ends for GTO's that are put in a trailer and never taken out. Fortunately, this one survived to this point so I want to drive it til I can no longer drive. So many people have stopped me because they had one or their parents had on and really enjoyed the car.
1989 GTA
I have read alot of forum posts for the Skylarks and F85. They are rare around here and I never see them. Keep saving them and driving them. I plan on reading every thread I can find for all the Abodies.
OldGoat69
Thanks for all the encouragement!! I have read your posts and seen you all over this forum. I and others appreciate all your positive comments and encouragement.
Classiccaprice
I saw the lift on a video for the LS challenge where they competed transplanting a motor and starting it in 20 minutes. I pulled the 326 out and put the l in with it. I usually work alone cause it is my stress relief. I plan on doing many of these and believe proper tools save soo much time and are safer.
Unfortunately, I have been pretty sick this week, so nothing but part ordering has happened. I should have some updates later this week.
Thanks again for your posts.
Jim
Unfortunately 4-doors just don't get any respect. Most that survived were stripped for frames and front ends for GTO's that are put in a trailer and never taken out. Fortunately, this one survived to this point so I want to drive it til I can no longer drive. So many people have stopped me because they had one or their parents had on and really enjoyed the car.
1989 GTA
I have read alot of forum posts for the Skylarks and F85. They are rare around here and I never see them. Keep saving them and driving them. I plan on reading every thread I can find for all the Abodies.
OldGoat69
Thanks for all the encouragement!! I have read your posts and seen you all over this forum. I and others appreciate all your positive comments and encouragement.
Classiccaprice
I saw the lift on a video for the LS challenge where they competed transplanting a motor and starting it in 20 minutes. I pulled the 326 out and put the l in with it. I usually work alone cause it is my stress relief. I plan on doing many of these and believe proper tools save soo much time and are safer.
Unfortunately, I have been pretty sick this week, so nothing but part ordering has happened. I should have some updates later this week.
Thanks again for your posts.
Jim
