Hybrid Electric 1949 Chevy Pickup, Advice Needed
08-26-2014, 10:31 AM
#1
Hybrid Electric 1949 Chevy Pickup, Advice Needed Hey guys, I'm new here. I'm looking for a little advice on a project. First I'll give a little background on the project.
We have a 1949 Chevy pickup truck body, mounted to a Chromoly tube chassis with Ridetech Air suspension. Currently, there is a Remy electric motor, A123 battery pack, and an automated World Class T5 transmission. All of this is still in development. The last piece is the engine. Originally, we had an Opal Astra 1.3L turbo diesel. But that engine is being put aside as we cannot get around the security system. So now, we are looking for an alternate engine. And the 5.3L GM V8 is the obvious best option, in my opinion... My Master's advisor was one of the lead engineers in the design of the Gen IV Small block Chevy, so we have a good resource available to us here. The GM V8s are very efficient as well, so coupled with our electric drivetrain, it would be a fairly efficient vehicle. Combined power would be somewhere around 500hp, 600ft-lbs, which would be a head turner as well.
Now my question here. I think the best V8 choice would be a 5.3L aluminum block, with DoD and VVT. From what I have found on GMPP, the available retrofit/standalone ECU and harness system disables DoD. Is there a way to make a standalone ECU and harness that keeps DoD working? We plan on purchasing HPTuners at some point to modify some parameters to get the most efficiency in our setup.
Thanks guys! Let me know if I can clarify anything.
We have a 1949 Chevy pickup truck body, mounted to a Chromoly tube chassis with Ridetech Air suspension. Currently, there is a Remy electric motor, A123 battery pack, and an automated World Class T5 transmission. All of this is still in development. The last piece is the engine. Originally, we had an Opal Astra 1.3L turbo diesel. But that engine is being put aside as we cannot get around the security system. So now, we are looking for an alternate engine. And the 5.3L GM V8 is the obvious best option, in my opinion... My Master's advisor was one of the lead engineers in the design of the Gen IV Small block Chevy, so we have a good resource available to us here. The GM V8s are very efficient as well, so coupled with our electric drivetrain, it would be a fairly efficient vehicle. Combined power would be somewhere around 500hp, 600ft-lbs, which would be a head turner as well.
Now my question here. I think the best V8 choice would be a 5.3L aluminum block, with DoD and VVT. From what I have found on GMPP, the available retrofit/standalone ECU and harness system disables DoD. Is there a way to make a standalone ECU and harness that keeps DoD working? We plan on purchasing HPTuners at some point to modify some parameters to get the most efficiency in our setup.
Thanks guys! Let me know if I can clarify anything.
08-27-2014, 02:36 AM
#6
It sounds like you're doing the hybrid with the capability of running both the electric and gas motor through the drivetrain. If so and both will be going through the T5, you may want to consider another trans. T5 are not terribly strong and were never put behind anything bigger than a 5.0 from GM.
To maintain DOD, you'll probably need an LH6 or LC9 harness and ecu. Those can be sourced at Pick and pull. It looks like GM does sell the LC9 crate motor if you want that new. But check on DOD compatibility with manual trans. There have been several discussions that they don't work well together.
Let's hear more details on the drivetrain plan.
To maintain DOD, you'll probably need an LH6 or LC9 harness and ecu. Those can be sourced at Pick and pull. It looks like GM does sell the LC9 crate motor if you want that new. But check on DOD compatibility with manual trans. There have been several discussions that they don't work well together.
Let's hear more details on the drivetrain plan.
Last edited by garys 68; 08-27-2014 at 02:55 AM.
08-27-2014, 11:55 AM
#7
Here is a picture back in the mock-up process. Still working on the control strategy for this one.
Yes, we are going to have to change this transmission out at some point. Maybe to a more modern 6 speed, or maybe to an automatic. The 5 speed had been picked originally to maintain the efficiency advantages of a manual while still being able to control it, depending on the drive cycle.
We have it all linked together in what's known as a "Parallel Hybrid" or P2 drivetrain. The E motor is a through shaft, directly coupled to the transmission and coupled to the engine with a clutch.
Here's a picture from CAD, the engine is the Opal diesel we were originally going to use.
Thanks for the info on the DOD engines. Can a stock ECU be used in a standalone configuration? I'll look into using it with a manual. If it's simply a CAN message of some sort, such as vehicle speed, that it needs, our vehicle controller can provide that.
I'll see if I can find some more pictures of the vehicle. Currently the Emotor and Battery are in our S10 mule chassis for testing. We just got our Custom C&R racing radiator set in recently, and it's a beautiful unit.
Last edited by superman22x; 08-27-2014 at 12:06 PM.
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08-27-2014, 12:18 PM
#8
I found a shot of the truck on my phone. It's a little blurry. It's in the lowered state now, and the wheels are just for mock up. The suspension project, as cool as it is, has a function. Lowering the vehicle reduces frontal area, which plays a part of the vehicle drag equation. That was my senior design project, it was fun.
You can see our tube chassis in there. 4130 steel, somewhere around 0.093" wall thickness. UW-Madison built an aluminum frame the same year we built that steel frame for competition, and ours was actually lighter and stiffer. Ours was not built by students, we had a place called Kemps Rods and Restorations up here in the UP of Michigan build it. They actually still have a picture of the frame on their website.
http://www.exploringthenorth.com/kemp/fabphoto2.html
You can see our tube chassis in there. 4130 steel, somewhere around 0.093" wall thickness. UW-Madison built an aluminum frame the same year we built that steel frame for competition, and ours was actually lighter and stiffer. Ours was not built by students, we had a place called Kemps Rods and Restorations up here in the UP of Michigan build it. They actually still have a picture of the frame on their website.
http://www.exploringthenorth.com/kemp/fabphoto2.html
08-27-2014, 12:34 PM
#10
Very cool project.
If your question about a stock ecu being used as standalone, definitely. Pretty much everyone here is using a modified stock harness and reprogrammed stock ecu.
If you're going to try to get the DOD working with a manual trans, I think you'll find it's the entire programming that's the issue. Very few have tackled this and it may be a dead end.
With the engine output, do you plan on running a standard clutch or something more exotic that allows different electric vs gas engine speeds and/or regenerative braking?
If your question about a stock ecu being used as standalone, definitely. Pretty much everyone here is using a modified stock harness and reprogrammed stock ecu.
If you're going to try to get the DOD working with a manual trans, I think you'll find it's the entire programming that's the issue. Very few have tackled this and it may be a dead end.
With the engine output, do you plan on running a standard clutch or something more exotic that allows different electric vs gas engine speeds and/or regenerative braking?
Last edited by garys 68; 08-28-2014 at 03:40 AM.
08-28-2014, 12:46 PM
#11
Yep, for Michigan Tech.
Ok, thanks for the info. A good option might be to get a 5.3L with VVT and have the DOD disabled temporarily until we can get everything figured out. And in the future have future students work on getting DOD working. It would be a good senior design project I think.
I will look into finding the right info on getting a stock ECU and harness working. HPtuners should have all the capability needed to reprogram it I assume?
Ok, thanks for the info. A good option might be to get a 5.3L with VVT and have the DOD disabled temporarily until we can get everything figured out. And in the future have future students work on getting DOD working. It would be a good senior design project I think.
I will look into finding the right info on getting a stock ECU and harness working. HPtuners should have all the capability needed to reprogram it I assume?
08-30-2014, 12:22 PM
#12
Really cool project!
The instant torque of the electric motor, even at half that level will annihilate the t5. Look for a t56 or aftermarket. The shifter assembly is cool, but why not use cables or a sequential manual trans? Air shifted auto's like lenco's are attractive at a price. Maybe c5/6 transaxle?
Weight is a big deal for electric vehicles, so why not keep it simple with a light efficient engine in a light chassis, not worry about the helper systems like dod, VVT, afm etc or just use the engine as a generator instead of powerplant
The instant torque of the electric motor, even at half that level will annihilate the t5. Look for a t56 or aftermarket. The shifter assembly is cool, but why not use cables or a sequential manual trans? Air shifted auto's like lenco's are attractive at a price. Maybe c5/6 transaxle?
Weight is a big deal for electric vehicles, so why not keep it simple with a light efficient engine in a light chassis, not worry about the helper systems like dod, VVT, afm etc or just use the engine as a generator instead of powerplant
08-30-2014, 02:12 PM
#13
superman22x,
The 05/06 LS4 (aluminum FWD 5.3L) running the E40 ecm has been swapped into a couple of Fieros and retained DoD/Afm w/o needing the BCM. These cars all retained the stock automatic transmission.
I did a 07 LS4/F40 (6 speed manual) swap with the E67 ecm and tried to keep DoD. I wired up the TCM and used resistors for the shift solenoids, TCC, temp sensor, etc... I wired it to show 4th gear all the time and the ecm would show the transmission upshift/downshift through the gears in the logs. The only 2 codes it gave me were the not in P/N at start (used Fiero starter circuit) and the ISS input sensor. I ended up having someone with TunerCat disable all the transmission codes (HP Tuners didn't have access to the TCM DTCs), but could never get DoD to engage.
I am pretty sure that if you want DoD/AFM to work with an E67 ecm, you have to wire up the BCM. The brake pedal switch goes to the BCM and then through the CAN/BUS wires to the ECM. Without this, the ecm doesn't know when the brake pedal is pushed and the brake pedal position is one of the many disablers for Dod/AFM. I am not interested in wiring up the BCM for my swap.
None of the LS4's ever had VVT, so I don't know much about that.
The 05/06 LS4 (aluminum FWD 5.3L) running the E40 ecm has been swapped into a couple of Fieros and retained DoD/Afm w/o needing the BCM. These cars all retained the stock automatic transmission.
I did a 07 LS4/F40 (6 speed manual) swap with the E67 ecm and tried to keep DoD. I wired up the TCM and used resistors for the shift solenoids, TCC, temp sensor, etc... I wired it to show 4th gear all the time and the ecm would show the transmission upshift/downshift through the gears in the logs. The only 2 codes it gave me were the not in P/N at start (used Fiero starter circuit) and the ISS input sensor. I ended up having someone with TunerCat disable all the transmission codes (HP Tuners didn't have access to the TCM DTCs), but could never get DoD to engage.
I am pretty sure that if you want DoD/AFM to work with an E67 ecm, you have to wire up the BCM. The brake pedal switch goes to the BCM and then through the CAN/BUS wires to the ECM. Without this, the ecm doesn't know when the brake pedal is pushed and the brake pedal position is one of the many disablers for Dod/AFM. I am not interested in wiring up the BCM for my swap.
None of the LS4's ever had VVT, so I don't know much about that.
09-02-2014, 12:04 PM
#16
Thanks for the info guys! I was just looking at Speartech. I will give them a call to see if it would work in our application.
The T5 is pretty much just an off the shelf unit. I added a few things with a few hours on the mill and lathe, but that's about it. Wouldn't be hard to swap gearsets. We have very precise control of the E-motor. I think until we get the bugs worked out, we can just put a low rev limiter on the engine or something.
The T5 is pretty much just an off the shelf unit. I added a few things with a few hours on the mill and lathe, but that's about it. Wouldn't be hard to swap gearsets. We have very precise control of the E-motor. I think until we get the bugs worked out, we can just put a low rev limiter on the engine or something.
