Reddwarf

So here's the deal! I have a 1977 Camaro originally an automatic car. Looking to convert it to a standard/manual transmission. The car is complete less engine and transmission! Soon to be ordering a stock used LQ4 with reasonably low miles, and had some questions!


My idea for this project is an LQ4 6.0 with LM7 5.3 heads for higher compression.


Cam (TR224 seems the most highly suggested cam for LQ4s)


True dual exhaust. Possibly headers if I can find a good pair for reasonably cheap.


Muncie 4 speed.


3.73 Read end gears.


Those are my goals for the car! However I know a LOT of guys on here have 10 times the experience that I do and way have some different opinions and better ideas and suggestions for setups! Cam? Muncie 4 speed? Headers? So! Suggestions?

Project GatTagO

iTrader: (7)

Holley second gen swap kit. Search and you will find a big thread on how to make your Muncie work with a LS engine.

Andrew

reedld

iTrader: (7)

Get the F body oil pan, do not try stock or the GM muscle car pan. I've seen used headers for 2nd gen LS on pro touring and lateral-g site. Some hang real low..so do your research. The new Holley headers are nice.

Reddwarf

Thanks for the replies, guys! Any idea how much HP those Holley headers will actually improve it?

And so I WILL need to buy a different oil pan for that LQ4 to fit?

reedld

iTrader: (7)

Not sure how much Hp increase you'll see. I just had my PCM retuned by Frost...I can't start my car until my tips come back. I'd expect 10-15 hp..nothing huge. Of course as you add in cam change, head swap, ls6 intake, it all adds up.

Lots of oil pans fit, but many hang below the crossmember. F body is above or flush with crossmember. CTS v hangs about an inch below, LH8/ hummer h3/gm muscle car pan hangs dangerously low (3"?). Any SUV/truck pan is out due to depth. The vette bat wing fits but you will need to add another drain hole ( member here did that)

Reddwarf

Sweet, I'll definitely get the F Body oil pan then! Any other major problems I'll run into that you know of with the swap? Really, I'd be fine with keeping the LQ4 stock. If I had a Muncie 4 speed and some 3.73 gears in the read end, it'd be plenty powerful I think... It's just a shame to get am engine with so much potential and not do any mods though, you know? Still haven't decided what all is worth it to do to the engine...

reedld

iTrader: (7)

The two best sites for info in my opinion..are here in this section and over at nastyz28...they have a high tech retrofit section.

While I did not actually do my swap, I was preparing and researching it when I found my car, mostly complete, for sale so far less $ than if I did the swap to my 80TA. Be prepared to spend money...the LSx platform is unique...and can break the budget on a few parts. The only exhaust manifold that work I have heard are the one year only...1998 f body ones. They changed in 1999. My engine mounts came from BRP, quite possibly the first ones made by them. My engine was put a tad forward to clear front suspension...so when I swapped in the fbody pan, it had to be modified. I could have used the cts v pan, but it does hang below the crossmember. While I'm not the most intelligent LS swap guy, I can definitely help you with any advice I've learned.

Are you going FI or carb? A 6.0 will definitely give you a lot of power...I think you should make up a spread sheet for expenses...search here and around the inter web for other 2nd gen builds...and add it up. I have no idea what your budget is.

Ach1992880

Having recently finished an LQ9 swap myself (into a 71 Cutlass), I'd say if you're thinking of going with a cam do it now. When I spoke to the guys at texas speed, they recommended a Torquer V2, I went down a step and got a 228R and it's very streetable on a 6.0. You won't regret putting an aftermarket cam in. The 224R is pretty conservative, and would be a good cam for a somewhat light car with a decent amount of gear and a manual transmission. I'm running 3.73's right now as well and I will say that if you're planning on any highway driving you should consider an overdrive transmission. The swap will take time and it'll cost more than you originally thought, but the results are worth the effort.

Ach1992880

Want a general idea of cost? Keep in mind this is real-world and not sugar coated, and there are areas that you can save cash.. but here is a quick rundown of my costs.

Engine $1,000.00
Built 4l60 Trans $1,600.00
Torque converter $500.00
PSI harness $550.00
Youkon Duragrip/3.73's $600.00
Headers $600.00
Windstar fans $40.00
Holley 302-2 Pan $350.00
coolant $30.00
Cut/balance driveshaft $75.00
Mounts $140.00
trans mount $40.00
Tanks Inc tank $200.00
Fuel pump $220.00
Fuel sender $50.00
Speedhut Gauges $550.00
Power Steering hoses $40.00
radiator hoses $40.00
vac hoses $10.00
Fuel lines/connections $200.00
228R cam kit $630.00
Mail order tune $250.00
Total: $7,715.00

I'm sure there are a few things missing there, but that's a ballpark to start with and an idea of where you may end up cutting costs. Helps having an understanding wife.

Reddwarf

I'm probably just going to stick with the stock 6.0 for now... Muncie 4 speed and determine the rear end gears later. I don't intend on doing much highway driving so I should be fine with 3.73 gears however it wouldn't kill me to go with something more practical. But I didn't expect to pay THAT much for wiring and hoses. And I wasn't sure how much getting the fuel system going would be...


Couple questions...


I'll have the original complete LQ4 6.0 wiring harness. Can I just use and mod that to fit?


And can I use the original Camaro gas tank? If so, what are the bare necessities that I'll need for the fuel system?

reedld

iTrader: (7)

That's a good $ total..it may be higher because you will need accessory brackets. The fbody or vette ones work best. Some companies sell brackets- Holley, kwik, etc. start reading other 2nd gen builds, including mine. I am using factory tank with 4th gen bucket. Works great.

Ach1992880

It's very possible to save cash in areas like the fuel tank and wiring harness. Plenty of guys have modded their harness for stand alone use. Mine had been so butchered when they took the engine out it was beyond what I found reasonable to piece back together. By rewiring your stock harness, keeping the stock cam, using your stock tank, using factory manifolds instead of headers, and a few other cost cutting measures you can really put a dent in that figure above. I wanted to lay it out there to give an idea of how much you can end up spending by the time it's all said and done... didn't want to shock you. That's why my build took 15 months to complete, waiting for paychecks.

blswan

iTrader: (2)

Yes you can use the stock tank, however, for the price of a decent inline fuel pump you can get a Spectre complete tank. This comes with a pump Only $300ish from Rockauto. That's what I used.

For the accessory brackets you are going to have to relocate them. KWIK performance is the cheapest I found. (http://www.kwikperf.com/)

If you are adventurous, you can use your stock harness. Otherwise, their are a plethora of other companies than can sell you an aftermarket. I don't have patience to pull apart the existing unit. Not for $550 anyway.

Reddwarf

I feel like I'm asking all the obvious questions here but please bare with me as I'm new to LS swaps...


But for the 1977 Camaro, they have 3 different gas tanks. One for a 4.1, one for a 5.0, and one or a 5.7. Do I just need to get the size for whatever engine came in my car originally?


Again, this may seem lie a dumb question... But if my 6.0 engine already comes complete with the alternator and everything, why do I need relocation brackets? What all brackets do I need?


Thank you guys so much for your help! It's much appreciated! I'm looking to order my engine, all brackets, wiring harness, mounts, Muncie transmission, flywheel, tank, and all mechanical parts HOPEFULLY tonight. If not, just as soon as possible. But it'd help if I had a really straight forward list of the necessities that I need to order...

Reddwarf

***** UPDATE *****


A running complete pull out 6.0 is $1600-2000...


A running complete pull out 5.3 is $550 at a local salvage...


Both have anywhere from 130-180k miles. However with the 5.3, I can have enough cash left over to completely rebuild the engine... With the 6.0, I probably wouldn't be able to afford to do a whole lot other than just put the engine in... Opinions? The 5.3 worth it? Also, my dad has a 350 that he said he'd give to me to do a fresh 383 stroker with it but I'm really leaning towards a fuel injected engine. I'm stuck between the 5.3 and the 383 stroker now though. They're both good deals. I just didn't want a carbed engine because my plans for this car are a more modern, lowered, hot rod look...

reedld

iTrader: (7)

You want the 21 gallon tank, I think all 3 engine choices use the same tank. The 1974-1981 f body tanks are taller on one side when compared to earlier (1970-1973) ones.

http://www.rickscamaros.com/camaro-gas-tank-21-gallon-1974-1977.html

The stock accessories will conflict with your stock hood. You can't mix and match the truck, fbody and vette accessories. They are spaced out from the engine differently.

You should grab the book " how to swap a LS into anything" from amazon. It's a good read and will help you with your planning. I think there is one out detailing camaro/firebirds for the same publisher.

Here it is. Check amazon or eBay


http://www.abebooks.com/SWAP-LS-Engines-Camaros-Firebirds-1967-1981/15661508896/bd?cm_mmc=gmc-_-gmc-_-PLA-_-v01