jeepurz

I've been doing a ton of research and searching the forum to validate my LS engine choice and think I determined it was a bad plan.

Goal: Decent street-ability, auto-cross, and occasional track days in a Cobra replica(Factory Five Racing). Junkyard take-out with low miles, ability to swap cams if needed, but looking to start with largest displacement possible yet still on a pretty tight budget(yeah right, I know...).

Random thoughts: Would love to have 427 cubic inches, but not feasible in my price range without stroking a 6.2 but can't afford sleeves. Running a T56 Magnum so need an ECU and tune that will work.

Choice: L92 since I can get 6.2L, good HP/Torque, and plenty in junkyards. I can leave stock at first but swap cams at a later date for an additional 40(maybe 50+?) HP, all the while keeping VVT. Stock tune means no additional cost, etc... Essentially, the L92 offers me the most bang for my junkyard dollar with the ability to upgrade parts over time(compared to high initial price of let's say a vette or GTO motor).

Dilemma: Doesn't seem to be a tune that exists for a manual tranny. Is there really no L92 offered with a manual that I can use a tune from? ALL those L92/L9H trucks(1000's of them...) have autos? Seriously?!
Mast has controller options but too pricey, custom tune with VVT is going to be pricey and not many specialize in it.

Options: Remove VVT at a cost(even though I want it) so I can use a standard tune on the E38. Or look for a much more costly LS3(ouch on the pocketbook).

Do I have other options based on the L92 engine that I'm missing? Really I'm just rambling hoping maybe someone has come across solutions before.

Thoughts?

TJ

96capricemgr

iTrader: (1)

If you want the slightest chance of making this work the FIRST thing you have to do is accept the fact you are going to need tuning, if you can't deal with that throw something ancient and carbed in it.

DavidBoren

Look into any of the various shops offering tuning by mail. Lots of people using auto tranny ecm's with t56 stick transmissions, the changes necessary to the tune are well documented and easily done. Send whatever ecm that comes with your motor to someone for a quick reflash. You need the security system turned off anyways.

As for vvt programming, look into texas speed. They provide phaser tables with their vvt cams. No need for the mast vvt computer. And texas speed uses callies cam cores, which is a nice step up in quality over your run of the mill comp cams cores.

jeepurz

If not obvious, I'm a noob to the Gen IV engines, but I do have experience with the late-Gen I/TBI engines into Jeeps(different beast all together I know). With all of the available tunes out there, I guess I've poorly assumed that using common parts would mean someone has already "invented the wheel" that I need so a personal tune wouldn't be necessary. I can get over the need for a custom tune as long as I can find someone I trust(SE Wisconsin area).

I've looked at some of the Texas Speed products, I'll have to dive in a little more. I guess I haven't dug deep enough if people have successfully used L92's with VVT and a manual trans, because I keep seeing the question being asked, but no apparent straight-forward answer. Even more Googling in my future I guess.

TJ

DavidBoren

Vvt doesn't give a **** about the transmission. It's all rpm and load dependant. The afm/dod system relies on communication with the transmission, but that system is best to be avoided altogether, and doesn't pertain to the l92, anyways.

Your vvt will be just fine with your t56.

96capricemgr

iTrader: (1)

Other than the quest for displacement why the L92?
You realize an aluminum 5.3l can be modded to be a handful in such a light car for autocross.
A 5.3l done well(ported heads and appropriate cam) and available in all aluminum should be a monster compared to a TBI 350, AFM/DOD are hassles you don't want to mod around unless a factory equipped daily driver you want to warm over and even then the DOD should be scrapped on equipped vehicles.

Your car is featherweight a modded 6.2l would be a handful anywhere but the dragstrip.

Hell if you can handle the extra 100lbs an iron 6.0l is cheap and the savings could get you a lot more power than a near stock L92.

jeepurz

My thought process for the L92 was that I could start with a junkyard takeout and leave it stock while building the car and during shakedown. 403HP/415T is a great starting point, then add a cam later if necessary. If starting with a 5.3, I'm going to want to build it first, and then maybe have to upgrade again later down the road. The L92 offers VVT but no DOD in the Denali's(most common source vehicle) so again, I thought that was a good starting point for a noob.

Agreed that this is going into a light car, ~2200 lbs, so maybe the iron block 6L is the way to go. Autocross is about shaving weight, hence my interest in the aluminum block when starting this investigation. I'll have to dig into the L76 or LY6 engine info to see what I can find. 100 lbs of sprung weight isn't going to make or break my plans.

TJ

96capricemgr

iTrader: (1)

Thing is you are going to have headers, better tuning, hopefully a good cold air intake and those things will all add power, your 403hp motor becomes closer to 450 in a hurry.

A basic 5.3l is cheap to pickup and with those mods will be probably 360hp/380tq more if you get the later ones with the better heads and intake and the headers, mounts etc all fit the 6.2l if you go that route later.

When I say 5.3s are cheap, depending on location $4-500 could probably do heads and cam and still be cheaper than the stock L92 and make similar peak HP.

What are you finding for L92 pricing, I am betting at least $3500?

KCS

iTrader: (20)

Since you're talking about swapping in a stock engine, I'm going to move this so you may get some better answers.

jeepurz

Yes, that's about the pricing I'm seeing for an L92. So.... I've spent the whole afternoon researching other options(and maybe drinking a beer or two...). I'm finding better local prices for LY6 engines and feel they offer me a good starting point, similar to L92. And I've also found quite a bit more about both L92 and LY6 when it comes to the VVT and getting a custom tune that will work with a T56. I understand the VVT ECU doesn't care about the T56 choice, only that you need a tuner experienced enough to delete all the auto trans params and still make the engine and VVT run as desired. So I think I'm good with either, but the LY6 being WAY more available and at a better price point.
I still plan to go with a TSP VVT cam/spring setup to get some additional oomph. Even though it may not be needed in a 2200 lb car. With the right gears, decent tires, and some practice, maybe an 11 sec car. Hardest part between drag, autocross, or street will be traction from what I can tell.

TJ

Project GatTagO

iTrader: (7)

For reference, I have a L92 with VVT delete, LS3 intake, and LS7 cam, and headers. Makes about 420 rwhp through a Richmond 6 speed and 12 bolt rear end.

I also have a LH8 5.3L with an ASA cam, Holley Hi-Ram, and Hooker manifolds. It made 325 RWHP through a T56 and 9" rear end.

Numbers were on different dynoes, so take that for what it's worth.

Personally, I would ditch the VVT (in a light car the extra low end is not needed), stab a modest cam in it, get a Holley HP system, and never be a slave to a tuner.

Andrew

Jimbo1367

Andrew,
Do you like your Holley system that much? Is it easy to learn to tune?

Project GatTagO

iTrader: (7)

Yes, I do like my Holley system that much.

However, the answer to your next question is not as straightforward. I have found that people are generally lazy (me included) and don't take the time to read the instructions. I know this way come as a shock...LOL

If someone takes the time to go through the manual, install the system properly, and then actively starts to learn about the software, then it will not be hard.

But, if you expect to load a pre-canned tune and expect the car to just work, then you will be disappointed. The Holley software is very good, but I wouldn't call it intuitive. It's not like buying an iPhone and instantly being able to do what you want to do. The user has to learn the software and understand exactly what each of the parameters does. The fuel map is the easy part and the self-learn function gets that sorted out fairly quickly. The other parameters take a lot more time to get right, especially idle tuning. People don't realize how critical it is to have a stable idle and that can take hours to nail down.

This is why I recommend a mild to moderate cam because the more vacuum at idle, the better the idle quality and the easier it will be to tune.

Bottom line is that IF you are willing to learn both the system and some tuning basics, there is no reason that anyone can't do it...

Andrew

SenorThumpy

i'm getting to the point in planning my own project where i'm starting to think about engine management. I'm curious about the holley systems from a cost perspective. I'm very comfortable learning new software and putting in the seat time required to become proficient. How much is the holley system vs cost of going to a tuner? Also, do you think the holley system is better than hp tuners or microsquirt?

96capricemgr

iTrader: (1)

The new Chevy SS is published as 12.7 seconds bone stock in a 4000ish lbs car with an LS3 torque management and all. I would think a very soft launch would still net 11s at little more than half the weight.

I think you are aiming to grossly overpower a car before you even learn to drive it.

jeepurz

I absolutely, 100% agree with you. This car will FAR, FAR out-perform my limited skillset and will most likely be dangerous until my skills significantly improve. My background is going slow over rocks in Jeeps, with some speed-related motorsports in between, so I've got a long way to go to match the capabilities of such a light car with so much horsepower/torque.
I plan significant parking lot and autocross time to learn the car so I don't put myself or anyone else in danger. Then maybe some drag time(very limited, not my thing...) and especially HPDE. I'm near Road America, that's my ultimate goal with the car.

TJ

Project GatTagO

iTrader: (7)

Here is the Holley HP system that will work on a L92 using a cable throttle body. It comes with software and a wideband O2 sensor.

https://holley.com/products/ls_power.../parts/550-603

Incidentally, using a cable TB on a gen IV with stock electronics is not possible.

If you compare that price against getting a harness, ECU, HP Tuners, a wideband, etc..., the value becomes clear. Tuners usually charge $250 and up for tuning and if you make any changes to the car, it must be retuned. Also, if you were to tackle tuning yourself with HP Tuners or EFI Live, you are in for an even greater learning curve than using the Holley software. The Holley software can tune in realtime, meaning as the engine is running one person can tune on the fly while another drives. With the OEM tuning software this is not possible. You have to drive, data log, make changes, stop the car, re-flash the ECU, rinse and repeat.

The HP ECU also has some user programmable input and outputs that can be used for a variety of purposes. For instance, you can implement a PWM cooling fan strategy vs. a simple ON/OFF strategy. Here is a video I made to demonstrate. I have a Dominator, but the software is the same and the HP can be configured identically.


I don't know much about MegaSquirt so I can't comment on it.

Andrew

SenorThumpy

thanks for the info. Seems like a solid option to look at if you don't already have a harness, ecu and wide band... which i don't anymore lol so i'll be digging into this.

Looks like they don't make the dominator anymore? they show a terminator and the HP EFI. Is there a chart or something that shows the difference between terminator and hp efi lines and then the difference between the models in those lines?

SenorThumpy

OP if you're stuck on a 6.0, spend the money on a 6.0. However, I think a 7k revving turbo 4.8 or alumn 5.3 would be preferable for road racing. My 2c

Project GatTagO

iTrader: (7)

They definitely still make the Dominator. It is Holley's flagship ECU and has built in auto trans control, DBW (1 or 2) capability, up to 2 wideband O2 sensors, and a many more programable inputs and outputs.

Here is a selection guide:

http://documents.holley.com/efi_sele...chart62914.pdf

There are preconfigured HP systems for LSx engines, but the Dominator systems have to be put together ala carte. The Terminator is meant for retrofitting older engines that use a 4 barrel style intake and it uses the HP ECU with special firmware.

I have the Dominator on my Cougar using dual DBW throttle bodies and dual widebands.


Andrew