CA Ref question - transmission control
05-30-2016, 05:28 PM
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CA Ref question - transmission control Hi, I just completed a conversion with an 2004 4.8L LR4 conversion in my 1988 Land Cruiser. The Smog Referee dinged me on a few things, some which make sense, some are questionable and one that's really a problem.
I have a question on the questionable one... First, I have a custom harness built by Pacific Fabrication. They did not provide a connector for the Park/Neutral Position Switch. I did purchase the electronic transmission control option and the emissions control option. The truck runs beatifully, upshifts and downshifts perfectly, and always finds the right gear even in the mountains. I couldn't be more pleased!
However, the ref dinged me saying that the Powertrain Control Module "can't see" which gear the transmission is in. How can that be? It obviously knows what gear it's in because it always selects the right gear according to driving conditions and throttle position.
What purpose do the Park/Neutral Position Switch inputs serve to the PCM? What does the PCM do with these inputs and why are the relevant to emissions control if the truck runs perfectly without them? Pacific Fabrication says they don't understand what the Ref wants, they say that these inputs are not needed.
I want to understand this better, because I either have to talk the Ref into approving, or I need to ask Pacific F. to modify my harness to provide a connector and program the PCM to accept the inputs. So basically I'm caught in the middle and just need to educate myself so I can figure out what to do.
Also I have the same problem with the Transfer Case - he's telling me that the PCM needs to see a signal from the transfer case when it's in low range. Why?? This is especailly annoying because the engine and 4L60E came out of a 2WD vehicle.
Thanks! John
I have a question on the questionable one... First, I have a custom harness built by Pacific Fabrication. They did not provide a connector for the Park/Neutral Position Switch. I did purchase the electronic transmission control option and the emissions control option. The truck runs beatifully, upshifts and downshifts perfectly, and always finds the right gear even in the mountains. I couldn't be more pleased!
However, the ref dinged me saying that the Powertrain Control Module "can't see" which gear the transmission is in. How can that be? It obviously knows what gear it's in because it always selects the right gear according to driving conditions and throttle position.
What purpose do the Park/Neutral Position Switch inputs serve to the PCM? What does the PCM do with these inputs and why are the relevant to emissions control if the truck runs perfectly without them? Pacific Fabrication says they don't understand what the Ref wants, they say that these inputs are not needed.
I want to understand this better, because I either have to talk the Ref into approving, or I need to ask Pacific F. to modify my harness to provide a connector and program the PCM to accept the inputs. So basically I'm caught in the middle and just need to educate myself so I can figure out what to do.
Also I have the same problem with the Transfer Case - he's telling me that the PCM needs to see a signal from the transfer case when it's in low range. Why?? This is especailly annoying because the engine and 4L60E came out of a 2WD vehicle.
Thanks! John
05-30-2016, 06:19 PM
#2
Is there a way to appeal the referee decision or get a second opinion? Your swap has got to be a first for the ref.
Have someone from Pacific Fabrication go with you when you re-visit the referee. Face to face interaction with the harness builder and ref might straighten out what's needed.
http://smogcheck.ca.gov/Industry/Eng...uidelines.html
Have someone from Pacific Fabrication go with you when you re-visit the referee. Face to face interaction with the harness builder and ref might straighten out what's needed.
http://smogcheck.ca.gov/Industry/Eng...uidelines.html
Last edited by upflying; 05-30-2016 at 06:33 PM.
05-30-2016, 07:01 PM
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I cannot find any reference to an appeal process. I've asked the question on the IH8MUD forum, and no one has been able to tell me how to appeal. The ref invited me to call the Regional Manager, whose number is listed on my list of things to correct. I'm hesitant to call the manager until I have more knowledge and am better able to argue my case.
That's a good idea to have Pacific Fabrication to discuss with the Ref, but once again, I'd feel more comfortable knowing how the system works. I'd still have to call the Regional Manager first.
Face to face won't work, PF is hundreds of miles from me.
That's a good idea to have Pacific Fabrication to discuss with the Ref, but once again, I'd feel more comfortable knowing how the system works. I'd still have to call the Regional Manager first.
Face to face won't work, PF is hundreds of miles from me.
05-30-2016, 10:17 PM
#4
Does your vehicle start in any gear, or will it only start in park or neutral? If it already only starts in park or neutral, then maybe this switch is obsolete because the computer is controlling it already elsewhere through the ECT.
Having gone through this painful process myself before I've learned that the state's rules are very general and the referee themselves seem to have a lot of interpretive control over what is accepted or not. (they can get a God complex, too) I had some similar (read: ridiculous) issues too that took me a few times back, plus debating with the referee, to get my car's swap approved.
I would recommend the following:
1- Call the BAR and talk to someone there to have them give you more information on what your ref is asking for and what you can do. (http://smogcheck.ca.gov/About_BAR/Contact_Us.html) Perhaps they have a technician or someone knowledgable on this subject that can help you. They may also be able to give you info on an appeal, etc.
2- Try to reach out to GM directly. Maybe they can put you in touch with one of their actual engineers that designs/ programs the electronics. They might be able to get you schematics or give you info on how the factory set up works if you don't have this already. You can then see if your custom harness is working the same or not.
3- look up a 4wd version of your engine/ trans combo and see if the computer connects to the 4Low position or not. If it doesn't do it there, it shouldn't be needed in your truck. Does your transer case have a place to hook up a sensor?
Ultimately, I'd think you would want info that shows that either shows the GM PCM doesn't "see" the gears/ doesn't work this way, then you can show that to the ref. Maybe the ref is referencing another brand engine/ PCM that works this way and is assuming that yours should, too? Or, show how the GM PCM sees the gears- perhaps the ref isn't doing it right or doesn't have the right equipment?
Hope this helps
Having gone through this painful process myself before I've learned that the state's rules are very general and the referee themselves seem to have a lot of interpretive control over what is accepted or not. (they can get a God complex, too) I had some similar (read: ridiculous) issues too that took me a few times back, plus debating with the referee, to get my car's swap approved.
I would recommend the following:
1- Call the BAR and talk to someone there to have them give you more information on what your ref is asking for and what you can do. (http://smogcheck.ca.gov/About_BAR/Contact_Us.html) Perhaps they have a technician or someone knowledgable on this subject that can help you. They may also be able to give you info on an appeal, etc.
2- Try to reach out to GM directly. Maybe they can put you in touch with one of their actual engineers that designs/ programs the electronics. They might be able to get you schematics or give you info on how the factory set up works if you don't have this already. You can then see if your custom harness is working the same or not.
3- look up a 4wd version of your engine/ trans combo and see if the computer connects to the 4Low position or not. If it doesn't do it there, it shouldn't be needed in your truck. Does your transer case have a place to hook up a sensor?
Ultimately, I'd think you would want info that shows that either shows the GM PCM doesn't "see" the gears/ doesn't work this way, then you can show that to the ref. Maybe the ref is referencing another brand engine/ PCM that works this way and is assuming that yours should, too? Or, show how the GM PCM sees the gears- perhaps the ref isn't doing it right or doesn't have the right equipment?
Hope this helps
05-31-2016, 10:30 AM
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Thanks much for your quick reply!!
It will start in any gear, however I wired in a brake switch interlock. I do have the old Park/Neutral position switch from my donor vehicle harness, and I used that to get my backup lights functioning. Even if this was wired into the PCM, I would still need to jump through a few hoops to integrate the Park/Neutral safety switch into the Toyota wiring. I took the easy way out with the brake switch.
I'm really interested in more details - did you deal with just the referee or did you have to call his supervisor? Did you show him documentation to prove your point? That's kind of the track I'm on, I'm trying to get some authoritative sources before I go back.
Yes, there's an input in the PCM for the High/Low range selector. I just need to find out if that input is used for anything other than lighting the indicator on the dashboard. I don't know if it changes the shift points, fueling, spark etc. but I doubt it. I think there's a sensor in the transfer case IIRC to light the 4WD indicator, so I could tap that and feed it to the PCM. I just don't want to do it if it's not necessary.
I've since found a training PDF for GEN III/Holden, and it states what I suspected, that the four leads from the Park/Neutral Position Switch that go to the PCM are used to control dashboard lights after the PCM converts to serial data and sends to the Body Controller. I think this will help to make my case.
Having gone through this painful process myself before I've learned that the state's rules are very general and the referee themselves seem to have a lot of interpretive control over what is accepted or not. (they can get a God complex, too) I had some similar (read: ridiculous) issues too that took me a few times back, plus debating with the referee, to get my car's swap approved.
I've since found a training PDF for GEN III/Holden, and it states what I suspected, that the four leads from the Park/Neutral Position Switch that go to the PCM are used to control dashboard lights after the PCM converts to serial data and sends to the Body Controller. I think this will help to make my case.
05-31-2016, 11:05 AM
#6
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this is a bummer. do you have to deal with a specific referee? I think I heard in southern california the one to do go is in temecula. maybe I have that fact wrong.
In the end, the process sounds rather subjective.
Did you just go to the closest? Do they make notes in to a state database or just local to one referee?
The program, i don't have a problem with in concept, just that these folks seem to power trip sometimes, which is wrong. Wasting lots of time and money unnecessarily for no gain out the tailpipe.
Doug
In the end, the process sounds rather subjective.
Did you just go to the closest? Do they make notes in to a state database or just local to one referee?
The program, i don't have a problem with in concept, just that these folks seem to power trip sometimes, which is wrong. Wasting lots of time and money unnecessarily for no gain out the tailpipe.
Doug
05-31-2016, 02:08 PM
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this is a bummer. do you have to deal with a specific referee? I think I heard in southern california the one to do go is in temecula. maybe I have that fact wrong.
In the end, the process sounds rather subjective.
Did you just go to the closest? Do they make notes in to a state database or just local to one referee?
The program, i don't have a problem with in concept, just that these folks seem to power trip sometimes, which is wrong. Wasting lots of time and money unnecessarily for no gain out the tailpipe.
Doug
In the end, the process sounds rather subjective.
Did you just go to the closest? Do they make notes in to a state database or just local to one referee?
The program, i don't have a problem with in concept, just that these folks seem to power trip sometimes, which is wrong. Wasting lots of time and money unnecessarily for no gain out the tailpipe.
Doug
I did go to the closest, mainly because of feedback from two others that had theirs approved there with no problem. Unfortunately, there's a different guy there now. I don't know if I can go to a different one. I think my VIN is in the database now so it's not like I can start over. I'm somewhat confident that I can overcome this problem, but this isn't my biggest issue. My main issue is that I have corvette manifolds on for fitment reasons and he nailed me on that. Lots of Land Cruisers have these manifolds and got them approved even though it's technically against the letter of the law. Basically, there's a body of knowledge out there so I'm just following what others have done but I'm apparently unlucky, so I'm fishing around for some advice on the best way to tackle these problems.
I think the few shops that do this for a living have success, and I think the Refs give them a little more leeway. This appears to be a big gamble for the DIYers.
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05-31-2016, 02:32 PM
#8
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sounds like this guy is nit picking everything. Honestly, it is maddening. He's picking apart things that don't matter.
If tailpipe emissions are in compliance the rest should be (nearly) irrelevant. He's wasting tax payer $ (and yours) for no benefit. Of course, I'm preaching to the choir.
GM does sell the e-rod engines and they are 50 state compliant and I believe they have corvette manifolds. I wonder if some of that might support.
I recently met a guy at a car show in Carlsbad. He was driving a san rail type buggy with an LS engine. It was BAR - approved. I'm pretty sure he went through Temecula.
I wouldn't be surprised if you could make another appointment elsewhere and get things to happen. Or at least get advice from a sympathetic and knowledgeable person.
If I see him again, I'll ask for his number. He went through SB-100, I think which is different. But he did take the time to approve an LS engine vs. carb'd small block.
Next...
You might try calling Cunningham motorsports in Murrieta or the guy building that supercharged 4 cylinder VW bug build on this board. Both of those shops do a lot with LS engines and swaps. I bet they could offer some insights and / or contacts.
Sorry.
Doug
If tailpipe emissions are in compliance the rest should be (nearly) irrelevant. He's wasting tax payer $ (and yours) for no benefit. Of course, I'm preaching to the choir.
GM does sell the e-rod engines and they are 50 state compliant and I believe they have corvette manifolds. I wonder if some of that might support.
I recently met a guy at a car show in Carlsbad. He was driving a san rail type buggy with an LS engine. It was BAR - approved. I'm pretty sure he went through Temecula.
I wouldn't be surprised if you could make another appointment elsewhere and get things to happen. Or at least get advice from a sympathetic and knowledgeable person.
If I see him again, I'll ask for his number. He went through SB-100, I think which is different. But he did take the time to approve an LS engine vs. carb'd small block.
Next...
You might try calling Cunningham motorsports in Murrieta or the guy building that supercharged 4 cylinder VW bug build on this board. Both of those shops do a lot with LS engines and swaps. I bet they could offer some insights and / or contacts.
Sorry.
Doug
05-31-2016, 05:51 PM
#9
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Thanks much for your quick reply!!
Yes, there's an input in the PCM for the High/Low range selector. I just need to find out if that input is used for anything other than lighting the indicator on the dashboard. I don't know if it changes the shift points, fueling, spark etc. but I doubt it. I think there's a sensor in the transfer case IIRC to light the 4WD indicator, so I could tap that and feed it to the PCM. I just don't want to do it if it's not necessary.
Yes, there's an input in the PCM for the High/Low range selector. I just need to find out if that input is used for anything other than lighting the indicator on the dashboard. I don't know if it changes the shift points, fueling, spark etc. but I doubt it. I think there's a sensor in the transfer case IIRC to light the 4WD indicator, so I could tap that and feed it to the PCM. I just don't want to do it if it's not necessary.
http://ck5.com/forums/threads/89-bla....320227/page-4 I think that switch is built in to the newer transfer cases and tells the PCM when you're in 4LO so it can adjust the shift points on the trans. Most people just that stuff out since we manually keep the trans in 1st or 2nd when we're off roading...
Another thing you may try bringing up about the Corvette manifolds is that they're OEM and came standard on new Corvettes sold in CA which had to meet the states emissions requirements. I've heard some people have luck explaining it to the refs that way but unfortunately all of these requirements are open to interpretation by the refs and you never know how uptight yours is going to be until you start the process. I'm going to be going through this same thing later this year or early next year up in NorCal with my '89 K5 Blazer that I'm swapping a 5.3/4l80e in so I'll be tuning in to see how all of this goes for you.
05-31-2016, 06:10 PM
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Another idea...This thread has a bunch of swap shops cited. I'd call to several of them for recommendations. https://ls1tech.com/forums/western-m...wap-socal.html
05-31-2016, 08:23 PM
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Can't help out on the park/neutral safety switch stuff but I did see someone in another forum come up with a slick way of adding the signal for 4LO using a momentary switch and a piece of angle iron (scroll down to post #72):
http://ck5.com/forums/threads/89-bla....320227/page-4 I think that switch is built in to the newer transfer cases and tells the PCM when you're in 4LO so it can adjust the shift points on the trans. Most people just that stuff out since we manually keep the trans in 1st or 2nd when we're off roading...
http://ck5.com/forums/threads/89-bla....320227/page-4 I think that switch is built in to the newer transfer cases and tells the PCM when you're in 4LO so it can adjust the shift points on the trans. Most people just that stuff out since we manually keep the trans in 1st or 2nd when we're off roading...
05-31-2016, 08:30 PM
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Another idea...This thread has a bunch of swap shops cited. I'd call to several of them for recommendations. https://ls1tech.com/forums/western-m...wap-socal.html
What I may do this week is to remove one of the corvette manifolds and try to install the stock manifold to show how it won't fit, and take lots of pictures.
At least I was smart enough to start the project right after having it smog-checked with the old engine so I've got until December 2017 to get this resolved. Not that I wan't to wait that long, but at least I can take my time...
06-27-2016, 06:26 PM
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One more tidbit was shared: I was told it'd be worth calling the owner @ Turnkey engines in Oceanside. They do a lot of LS to Toyota swaps, apparently.
http://www.turnkeyenginesupply.com
Doug
http://www.turnkeyenginesupply.com
Doug
06-28-2016, 11:08 AM
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One more tidbit was shared: I was told it'd be worth calling the owner @ Turnkey engines in Oceanside. They do a lot of LS to Toyota swaps, apparently.
http://www.turnkeyenginesupply.com
Doug
http://www.turnkeyenginesupply.com
Doug
Thanks again,
John
06-29-2016, 12:28 PM
#17
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Sounds like the ref is questioning the gear and park/neutral selector from the PCM perspective. I don't think he is talking about what you are seeing on your column or your gear indicator. My first question to you is do you have a gear indicator switch. This should take care of both issues you have. When you put in your tranny did it have a gear indicator on the side of the shift lever? If not that is the easiest way to take care of it. You may also need some programming done but I don't think so.
06-29-2016, 02:06 PM
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That's right. He wants to see that the PCM can recognize a change in position on the shift lever. I installed a custom harness from Pacific Fabrication. They don't normally include the PRNDL connector. I sent the PCM back to them to investigate another issue, but while I was at it I told them I'm going to install a PRNDL connector and asked them to be sure that the PCM was enabled to recognize the inputs from the PRNDL switch.
I know it's not really necessary to be smog compliant, but my strategy is to do whatever the Ref wants as long as it's not completely unreasonable. I'm hoping that the next ref will recongize my good faith effort and let me slide on the manifold issue.
I know it's not really necessary to be smog compliant, but my strategy is to do whatever the Ref wants as long as it's not completely unreasonable. I'm hoping that the next ref will recongize my good faith effort and let me slide on the manifold issue.