Quickest/easiest way to accomplish engine & tranny swap?
12-12-2007, 11:36 PM
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Quickest/easiest way to accomplish engine & tranny swap? Hey all,
Well, the subject line pretty much says it all - I'm going to be "retiring" the Gen-I small block/A4 that's in my car now in favor of a 6L/T56. I've heard of people actually removing drivetrains from the bottom, but (AFAIK) that's generally done with 4thgens, where the engine is halfway under the dash anyway.
Does anyone have any experience doing it this way? Is it less, or more work?
Thanks in advance for any constructive suggestions/feedback.
Well, the subject line pretty much says it all - I'm going to be "retiring" the Gen-I small block/A4 that's in my car now in favor of a 6L/T56. I've heard of people actually removing drivetrains from the bottom, but (AFAIK) that's generally done with 4thgens, where the engine is halfway under the dash anyway.
Does anyone have any experience doing it this way? Is it less, or more work?
Thanks in advance for any constructive suggestions/feedback.
12-12-2007, 11:54 PM
#2
Ur gonna put it in your GTA? Im not sure how similar everything is with them. but I have done engine removal both ways. and taking it out the bottom is easier, and that way you dont scrape the front support or some of the paint on the firewall.. and it was not as dangerous.. IMO.
12-13-2007, 06:32 AM
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Yep, into the GTA. If everything works out well, I also have a '92 Silverado 4x4 (my "camper/RV" truck) that could be a candidate as well, but for right now I'm just looking at the GTA. Thanks. 
12-13-2007, 11:15 PM
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Any constructive feedback appreciated...
12-13-2007, 11:41 PM
#5
To help answer your Questions, what car are you going to swap the new engine / trans into ? What are your requirements ? Do you need to pass the Smog test and which state ?
Yes, as far as removing a Late 4th Gen F-Body, the bottom is the way to go.
Quick and Easy ? what do you consider Quick (7 days or a years) and Easy (all bolt in, no cut and welding) ?.. contact the vendors and Sponsors of complete swap kits (K-Members, wiring, mounts, Trans cross members, etc).
Yes, as far as removing a Late 4th Gen F-Body, the bottom is the way to go.
Quick and Easy ? what do you consider Quick (7 days or a years) and Easy (all bolt in, no cut and welding) ?.. contact the vendors and Sponsors of complete swap kits (K-Members, wiring, mounts, Trans cross members, etc).
12-14-2007, 09:11 AM
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It's a pretty easy and straightforward swap. And you can do it from the bottom on your gta...that's how I did my camaro. You can do it pretty quick, but that involves spending money on everything pre-made. You can get out a little cheaper making stuff yourself but it will take longer.
Do you want a tubular k-member or just conversion motor mounts? If you use conversion mounts do you want to keep your ac? Speartech wiring harness, or modify it yourself? Custom long tubes, exhaust manifolds, or make your own headers? These are just a few things to consider.
Do you want a tubular k-member or just conversion motor mounts? If you use conversion mounts do you want to keep your ac? Speartech wiring harness, or modify it yourself? Custom long tubes, exhaust manifolds, or make your own headers? These are just a few things to consider.
12-14-2007, 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted by bczee
To help answer your Questions, what car are you going to swap the new engine / trans into ? What are your requirements ? Do you need to pass the Smog test and which state ?
Yes, as far as removing a Late 4th Gen F-Body, the bottom is the way to go.
Quick and Easy ? what do you consider Quick (7 days or a year) and Easy (all bolt in, no cut and welding) ?.. contact the vendors and Sponsors of complete swap kits (K-Members, wiring, mounts, Trans cross members, etc).
Yes, as far as removing a Late 4th Gen F-Body, the bottom is the way to go.
Quick and Easy ? what do you consider Quick (7 days or a year) and Easy (all bolt in, no cut and welding) ?.. contact the vendors and Sponsors of complete swap kits (K-Members, wiring, mounts, Trans cross members, etc).
Emissions may be a concern, depending on whether or not I can register the car in another county where I own a piece of property or not. If it's the county where I live (in Colorado), yeah, I'll have to deal w/ that. 
Hmmm. Quick & easy - I guess "quick" would be having the majority of the swap done (& having the car in a basic running state) within about 3 weeks or so, provided that the parts have been compiled in advance.
Easy??? Well, let's be flexible there, & just say that completing the swap with a minimum of blood loss/blue language qualifies. (Yes, that is maddeningly vague, sorry.) I do have a MIG welder, but virtually no experience - the temptation to "roll my own" tranny mount is pretty strong, but I'm wondering if I wouldn't be better off by spending the $90 or so for the pre-fabbed mount...
I used to think that I had a $10-$12k budget to do this with (L92-headed LQ4 & T56), but now I'm thinking that I should maybe scale that down to about $8k - so anywhere I can find to save a few bucks - and not jeopardize safety/driveability - would be welcome. (I really want to upgrade the front brakes at the same time, just don't know if that will be possible or not...)
Originally Posted by fast377
It's a pretty easy and straightforward swap. And you can do it from the bottom on your gta...that's how I did my camaro. You can do it pretty quick, but that involves spending money on everything pre-made. You can get out a little cheaper making stuff yourself but it will take longer.
Do you want a tubular k-member or just conversion motor mounts? If you use conversion mounts do you want to keep your ac? Speartech wiring harness, or modify it yourself? Custom long tubes, exhaust manifolds, or make your own headers? These are just a few things to consider.
Do you want a tubular k-member or just conversion motor mounts? If you use conversion mounts do you want to keep your ac? Speartech wiring harness, or modify it yourself? Custom long tubes, exhaust manifolds, or make your own headers? These are just a few things to consider.
I've already resigned myself to notching my K-frame, even if I'm not 100% confident about doing perfect welds on the tranny x-member, I think I can box the notched K-frame...
Along the same lines, I'm probably going to wind up taking care of the wiring harness myself as well. I'd be stoked to get a Speartech harness, but I'm trying to "do the max for the least amount", so I guess I'll get to learn a little bit... (Not a bad thing in any event...)
Also, I'm looking into my options for exh. manifolds. Anyone have a pair of CTS-V manifolds that I can buy relatively cheaply? I'd like to find out if they fit or not...
I'm still in the process of adding up what this'll cost, once I'm fairly sure that I have the basics covered (a car that runs decently/safely, with a reasonable tune), THEN I'll feel that I can look at things like headers, etc. that are relatively easy to do "after the fact".
Thanks for your feedback guys, it's appreciated.
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12-18-2007, 12:31 PM
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Thought I might give this one last "bump", just to see if I could get any more thoughts/feedback on the original question (Easiest to R&R from top or bottom on a third-gen car?)...
Thanks guys.
Thanks guys.
12-18-2007, 01:39 PM
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http://www.cardomain.com/ride/748167/6
bottom ftmfw
thats the way ive done mine, minus the suspension and wiring you ahve 6 bolts on the k member and 4 on the tranny member disconnect the diveshaft and its basically done minus disconnecting your fuel some vacume lines a ground strap and the harness.
course out the bottom is a lot easier with a lift.
bottom ftmfw
thats the way ive done mine, minus the suspension and wiring you ahve 6 bolts on the k member and 4 on the tranny member disconnect the diveshaft and its basically done minus disconnecting your fuel some vacume lines a ground strap and the harness.
course out the bottom is a lot easier with a lift.
12-18-2007, 02:12 PM
#10
V8.. you sound like your on the right track on researching.. keep going and ask a few specific question one at a time and I think you will get better results..
You have put a lot of thinking and researching into this already.. It took me about 1/2 a six pack to go ahead and do it.. damn the question.. I figured I would ask or figure them out later ! LOL..
Just a thought.. figure out how much you need to be compliant on the SMOG... That will give you a real world figure of what is practical as far as HP.
There are a lot of 3rd gen swaps already and many of them can help you with your questions.. Swap part are as easy as buying them or making them yourself.. not that hard. I was not a great welder either, what I did for critical parts, was just tack them and had someone else put a solid bead on the part (for a better feeling and piece of mind).
I think if you hunt out your parts, $8k is more than enough. But if you start gettting into the costly parts 1st. you buget my get out of hand.. just think it out. As your thinking, doing the wiring yourself willsave $500+. On my project, I was just trying to get everything running wtih the stocker 1st and now have did a few mod.. I had already spent a lot of money on the body, suspension and other item way before I got around to thinking about doing the LS1 swap. I also spend a little extra on the Viper T56.
A tube K-Member is nice..It will add a lot of room.. but that is a added cost if your on a budget as will Header, Alum Radiator and the Fuel system.
I would just stick with the 01-02 F-Body Ex Manifold. they will clear and are not too bad as far as stocker go.
You have put a lot of thinking and researching into this already.. It took me about 1/2 a six pack to go ahead and do it.. damn the question.. I figured I would ask or figure them out later ! LOL..
Just a thought.. figure out how much you need to be compliant on the SMOG... That will give you a real world figure of what is practical as far as HP.
There are a lot of 3rd gen swaps already and many of them can help you with your questions.. Swap part are as easy as buying them or making them yourself.. not that hard. I was not a great welder either, what I did for critical parts, was just tack them and had someone else put a solid bead on the part (for a better feeling and piece of mind).
I think if you hunt out your parts, $8k is more than enough. But if you start gettting into the costly parts 1st. you buget my get out of hand.. just think it out. As your thinking, doing the wiring yourself willsave $500+. On my project, I was just trying to get everything running wtih the stocker 1st and now have did a few mod.. I had already spent a lot of money on the body, suspension and other item way before I got around to thinking about doing the LS1 swap. I also spend a little extra on the Viper T56.
A tube K-Member is nice..It will add a lot of room.. but that is a added cost if your on a budget as will Header, Alum Radiator and the Fuel system.
I would just stick with the 01-02 F-Body Ex Manifold. they will clear and are not too bad as far as stocker go.
12-19-2007, 09:26 PM
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blackbyrd, thanks for the feedback, but although our cars are similar, I suspect that pulling it from the top on my car would probably be just a little bit easier than on yours... (Nice that you have access to a lift though...)
bczee, as always, thanks for your reply. What you've said tracks pretty closely with what I've been thinking. I had a slow day at work today (no doubt because of the holiday), & was able to look up a lot of the parts that I'll want/need for the swap. And on things like the clutch & valvetrain, it looks like I might be able to spend around $300 less than I'd thought... Maybe as much as $400. A bit more time like this, & I'll be able to do it for free!!
It's kind of tough to really plan it out "to the nth detail", since on a project like this there are always going to be unexpected costs/parts that don't quite fit/parts that break or need to be bought twice, etc, so I generally try to add a 30% to 50% "fudge factor" to all cost estimates. That way, if there's money left over, I can get "extras", things like headers, etc. - but by that time it's a bit too late to get the tubular K-member, since the engine's already installed...
Maybe that's another question I should ask - is the "30% to 50% fudge factor" a reasonable figure? Too high? Too low? What has everyone else run into with your projects?
Thanks again guys.
bczee, as always, thanks for your reply. What you've said tracks pretty closely with what I've been thinking. I had a slow day at work today (no doubt because of the holiday), & was able to look up a lot of the parts that I'll want/need for the swap. And on things like the clutch & valvetrain, it looks like I might be able to spend around $300 less than I'd thought... Maybe as much as $400. A bit more time like this, & I'll be able to do it for free!!
It's kind of tough to really plan it out "to the nth detail", since on a project like this there are always going to be unexpected costs/parts that don't quite fit/parts that break or need to be bought twice, etc, so I generally try to add a 30% to 50% "fudge factor" to all cost estimates. That way, if there's money left over, I can get "extras", things like headers, etc. - but by that time it's a bit too late to get the tubular K-member, since the engine's already installed...
Maybe that's another question I should ask - is the "30% to 50% fudge factor" a reasonable figure? Too high? Too low? What has everyone else run into with your projects?
Thanks again guys.
12-19-2007, 10:58 PM
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I would say a 30% fudge factor is pretty reasonable. At least that way you might have a little left over to do other stuff like you said. I've run into several snags with my swap...but it was mainly because I did a lot of custom, or "out of the ordinary" stuff. Like I swapped to rack and pinion, 4th gen dash, every inch of wiring is 4th gen (headlights to tail lights), custom exhaust, custom headers, things like that.
As far as just getting it in and running and driveable, it shouldn't cost that much (if you save a lot of things for later.) If you watch what you buy and where you buy it (I would get as much stuff used as you can), I think it could be done in the 6k range.
dropout (engine/trans): $4k ish
motor mounts: 85
trans crossmember: 115
wiring harness rework: 500 (or do it yourself for free)
fuel pump: 150ish
assorted fittings: 200 (high estimate...all depends on what you do)
hoses: 30
fluids: 50
exhaust: whatever
That should get you running with stock everything. You will have to do stuff with your fuel lines if you keep the stock 3rd gen tank, or you could use the 4th gen tank and run a new line. Lots of different ways to do everything.
As far as just getting it in and running and driveable, it shouldn't cost that much (if you save a lot of things for later.) If you watch what you buy and where you buy it (I would get as much stuff used as you can), I think it could be done in the 6k range.
dropout (engine/trans): $4k ish
motor mounts: 85
trans crossmember: 115
wiring harness rework: 500 (or do it yourself for free)
fuel pump: 150ish
assorted fittings: 200 (high estimate...all depends on what you do)
hoses: 30
fluids: 50
exhaust: whatever
That should get you running with stock everything. You will have to do stuff with your fuel lines if you keep the stock 3rd gen tank, or you could use the 4th gen tank and run a new line. Lots of different ways to do everything.
