ls2 into a 72 cutlass
01-22-2008, 06:02 PM
#1
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ls2 into a 72 cutlass i have a 72 cutlass currently its an olds 455, 700r4, 3 73 posi, 275/60/15s m/t et radials setup with true dual 2.5" exhaust. Im just curious about what kind of issues i should really be on the look out for if i swap in a ls2 engine. From what i gather i will need to relocate the alternator and use some engine mount relocation mounts from hooker. Then move my motor mounts up from there olds position to, this hurts to say as an olds loyalist, the chevy engine position. Spend around 450 to get the stock harness and ecu reworked to be a standalone unit and get a new torque converter that has the mounting style needed to bolt up to the ls2.
Also what kind of power am i looking at if i do the l92/l76 topend on the ls2 stock block. What about that with decent street cam, whats the biggest lift i can run with the stock springs.
Also what kind of power am i looking at if i do the l92/l76 topend on the ls2 stock block. What about that with decent street cam, whats the biggest lift i can run with the stock springs.
01-22-2008, 08:55 PM
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haha, it would be you that responded first, i sent you a pm earlier today on ROP. I blew another 455 up and lookin to drop in an ls2. i have a 72 supreme
screen name ozzy4ever1 on there.
screen name ozzy4ever1 on there.
01-25-2008, 03:01 PM
#4
LS2 Swap into A Body I am doing an LS2 swap into my 1970 Chevelle with a TKO Tremec 5 speed. Should be fairly similar since the cutlass is an A body. I plan on documenting everything that I am doing when it is complete. Some things to consider:
Engine $4K ($5600 new from Jegs or Summit, no computer or harness)
Headers $600-$700
Engine Mounts $50-100
Oil Pan $250-$500
Harness $550
Drive by wire Pedal $100
Fuel Lines $200 at least
Fuel Tank $300-$1000 depending if you want a custom tank or not
Front Accessories $1000-$3500
I bought my LS2 out of a 2006 GTO with less than 5K miles on it for $4500 shipped to my work. That came with the Harness, Computer, Mass Airflow Sensor, Front drive pulleys, stock exhaust manifolds. I sold the front drive stuff for $500 on ebay so I am into the engine for $3.8K. I also sold the stock GTO oil pan, pickup and tray for around $200 on ebay.
You can get Full Length Headers, Hooker or (Edelbrock coming out this or next month.) I want the Edelbrock headers because I want the donut gaskets they use at the collector to prevent leaks.
Engine mounts, S&P $90 pair, The hooker and edelbrock mounts are very close to these. I think the S&Ps are about 1 inch forward of the other two. You can make your own, a company on ebay has them for like $40 bucks or something like that. Not sure if they are the same as S&P or the other two manufacturers.
With the S&P engine mounts I may not have to notch the frame to retain the stock AC compressor location. I will leave the compressor in the stock location and notch the frame I have a Mig welder and I am not a purist.
Oil Pan S&P modified F-Body Pan $300 (for new pan, pickup tube and windage tray) $225 to modify, $525 total, They notch the pan and TIG weld it, it is a very nice. You can use a Cadillac pan but you have to set the engine back farther than I want, then you must notch the frame or relocate the AC compressor. Neither the Corvette pan or GTO pan will work in your application.
I purchased a pulley take off of a corvette LS2 for $1200, close to brand new(I wasn't willing to wait for the GM kit to come out, the pretty setups are too much money). GM performance parts is supposed to be coming out with this setup at any time. Jegs and Summit show them on their site but are unavailable at the current time. $800-900 is what they want for the setup "if it ever comes out". You can spend $2K-$3.5K depending on how pretty you want it. Some guys on here have pieced together setups for under $500.
I plan on buying a Rock Valley stainless steel tank with the pump inside the tank, I would highly recommend the pump inside the tank. I ran a electric pump on the frame rail on my big block and it was loud and noisy (down right annoying). Plus the in tanks units stay cooler and the tank acts as a muffler. Ricks makes a stainless steel tank also. There are companies that will modify a stock tank, also I think someone on here used an mid nineties impala/caprice tank.
S&P modifies the stock fuel lines off the corvette for the chevelle. Mark at S&P even states that they are expensive. $700-$800 or so with the fuel filter, fuel line to tank and to and from lines to the rock valley tank. On this fuel system the filter is the regulator and only requires one fuel line up to the engine after the filter. I will pay more so I don't have to fabricate this. I want this project done by the summer and I will pay for it.
I did not do this swap the cheapest way possible. I would expect to spend at least $15k for odds and ends by the time you are said and done. I am sure there are things that I am missing but this is all I can think of for now.
Recommendations. Buy and LS2 out of a corvette so you get the right pulleys to begin with. I have heard the F-Body pulleys will work and I am sure the GTO pulleys could to with the right modifications but I hate how they look. So I got the corvette ones.
Make sure your tranny has some sort of speed sensor. If it does not, there is a company that makes one that installs where the speedo cable hooks up to the transmission. About $100 bucks. don't remember the name of the company.
Like you said you will need to change or olds mounts to chevy mounts
Let me know if you have questions. There are a lot of guys out here with A bodies. So you have found the right resource. Also another reason I used a lot of S&P stuff is because they make a DVD that give you tons of information about the LS2 and what makes it externally different than the LS1. It was free. Call them up. Mark is the owner, he is a lot of help.
Engine $4K ($5600 new from Jegs or Summit, no computer or harness)
Headers $600-$700
Engine Mounts $50-100
Oil Pan $250-$500
Harness $550
Drive by wire Pedal $100
Fuel Lines $200 at least
Fuel Tank $300-$1000 depending if you want a custom tank or not
Front Accessories $1000-$3500
I bought my LS2 out of a 2006 GTO with less than 5K miles on it for $4500 shipped to my work. That came with the Harness, Computer, Mass Airflow Sensor, Front drive pulleys, stock exhaust manifolds. I sold the front drive stuff for $500 on ebay so I am into the engine for $3.8K. I also sold the stock GTO oil pan, pickup and tray for around $200 on ebay.
You can get Full Length Headers, Hooker or (Edelbrock coming out this or next month.) I want the Edelbrock headers because I want the donut gaskets they use at the collector to prevent leaks.
Engine mounts, S&P $90 pair, The hooker and edelbrock mounts are very close to these. I think the S&Ps are about 1 inch forward of the other two. You can make your own, a company on ebay has them for like $40 bucks or something like that. Not sure if they are the same as S&P or the other two manufacturers.
With the S&P engine mounts I may not have to notch the frame to retain the stock AC compressor location. I will leave the compressor in the stock location and notch the frame I have a Mig welder and I am not a purist.
Oil Pan S&P modified F-Body Pan $300 (for new pan, pickup tube and windage tray) $225 to modify, $525 total, They notch the pan and TIG weld it, it is a very nice. You can use a Cadillac pan but you have to set the engine back farther than I want, then you must notch the frame or relocate the AC compressor. Neither the Corvette pan or GTO pan will work in your application.
I purchased a pulley take off of a corvette LS2 for $1200, close to brand new(I wasn't willing to wait for the GM kit to come out, the pretty setups are too much money). GM performance parts is supposed to be coming out with this setup at any time. Jegs and Summit show them on their site but are unavailable at the current time. $800-900 is what they want for the setup "if it ever comes out". You can spend $2K-$3.5K depending on how pretty you want it. Some guys on here have pieced together setups for under $500.
I plan on buying a Rock Valley stainless steel tank with the pump inside the tank, I would highly recommend the pump inside the tank. I ran a electric pump on the frame rail on my big block and it was loud and noisy (down right annoying). Plus the in tanks units stay cooler and the tank acts as a muffler. Ricks makes a stainless steel tank also. There are companies that will modify a stock tank, also I think someone on here used an mid nineties impala/caprice tank.
S&P modifies the stock fuel lines off the corvette for the chevelle. Mark at S&P even states that they are expensive. $700-$800 or so with the fuel filter, fuel line to tank and to and from lines to the rock valley tank. On this fuel system the filter is the regulator and only requires one fuel line up to the engine after the filter. I will pay more so I don't have to fabricate this. I want this project done by the summer and I will pay for it.
I did not do this swap the cheapest way possible. I would expect to spend at least $15k for odds and ends by the time you are said and done. I am sure there are things that I am missing but this is all I can think of for now.
Recommendations. Buy and LS2 out of a corvette so you get the right pulleys to begin with. I have heard the F-Body pulleys will work and I am sure the GTO pulleys could to with the right modifications but I hate how they look. So I got the corvette ones.
Make sure your tranny has some sort of speed sensor. If it does not, there is a company that makes one that installs where the speedo cable hooks up to the transmission. About $100 bucks. don't remember the name of the company.
Like you said you will need to change or olds mounts to chevy mounts
Let me know if you have questions. There are a lot of guys out here with A bodies. So you have found the right resource. Also another reason I used a lot of S&P stuff is because they make a DVD that give you tons of information about the LS2 and what makes it externally different than the LS1. It was free. Call them up. Mark is the owner, he is a lot of help.
Last edited by 1970-Cloned; 01-25-2008 at 04:29 PM.
01-25-2008, 04:25 PM
#5
Hey.. welcome fellow A-Body. I have completed my Swap just over a year ago and posted some information in my Car domain pages, link in my Sig.
What will find in your research is that no one swap by everyone is the same. You can learn a lot by reseaching everyone elses and plan out your swap with good information from everyone else.
Mine is a 71 Chevelle/Malibu wtih a Stock (for now) 99' Z28 engine with a Viper T56 trans behind it (I am using a Bench seat and the Viper shifter is located a few inches forward and cleared my beach as the f-body would not). I used the BRP style mounts and I wanted to use the Stock LS1 A/C compressor (had to notch frame for it) and was able to use all of the factory front accessories in my conversion.
The main planning point is what adapter plates you want to use as that will direct you on the location the engien will sit and what accessories you have to use and what frame and other modifications are needed (Frame, Oil pan, Trans tunnel, Cross members, etc).
OIl pan is another key item to research and plan out. I used a CTS-V pan and didn't have to notch the cross member or oil pan.
For the VSS and Trans, one company that offers some help is JagsThatRun, they have good information on this subject and has kits to assist the conversion.
I used a 95 Impala Gas tank ($50) that fix between the frame with just a 1/4 trim in a few spots of the frame and the plus is that the tank is EFI ready with a sump and intake pump, I used a Racetronix kit with a Walbro pump and wire kit. Then just added the SS Braided line, AN fitting and finished it off with the 99+ Corvette Filter/Regulator. (less than or just above $300 for the complete system!). I already had 3/8" Stainless Steel tubing in the frame and ready to go. but that would only be a few more $$ addded to the total cost.
You can go with high end parts (ie. S&P, ATS) or you can go on the cheap (Swap meets, junk yards, etc).. either way it will work, but just plan it out right and do it right with what ever parts and budget you have the 1st time (no redo's, those are costly)
As with the rest.. if you have question, feel free to ask ! good luck.
What will find in your research is that no one swap by everyone is the same. You can learn a lot by reseaching everyone elses and plan out your swap with good information from everyone else.
Mine is a 71 Chevelle/Malibu wtih a Stock (for now) 99' Z28 engine with a Viper T56 trans behind it (I am using a Bench seat and the Viper shifter is located a few inches forward and cleared my beach as the f-body would not). I used the BRP style mounts and I wanted to use the Stock LS1 A/C compressor (had to notch frame for it) and was able to use all of the factory front accessories in my conversion.
The main planning point is what adapter plates you want to use as that will direct you on the location the engien will sit and what accessories you have to use and what frame and other modifications are needed (Frame, Oil pan, Trans tunnel, Cross members, etc).
OIl pan is another key item to research and plan out. I used a CTS-V pan and didn't have to notch the cross member or oil pan.
For the VSS and Trans, one company that offers some help is JagsThatRun, they have good information on this subject and has kits to assist the conversion.
I used a 95 Impala Gas tank ($50) that fix between the frame with just a 1/4 trim in a few spots of the frame and the plus is that the tank is EFI ready with a sump and intake pump, I used a Racetronix kit with a Walbro pump and wire kit. Then just added the SS Braided line, AN fitting and finished it off with the 99+ Corvette Filter/Regulator. (less than or just above $300 for the complete system!). I already had 3/8" Stainless Steel tubing in the frame and ready to go. but that would only be a few more $$ addded to the total cost.
You can go with high end parts (ie. S&P, ATS) or you can go on the cheap (Swap meets, junk yards, etc).. either way it will work, but just plan it out right and do it right with what ever parts and budget you have the 1st time (no redo's, those are costly)
As with the rest.. if you have question, feel free to ask ! good luck.
01-25-2008, 05:16 PM
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it seems like just getting a CTS-V Ls2 would be the best way to go? It wouldnt require oil pan mods, and for some reason or another they seem to sell for less on ebay? As for a fuel system I have a full braided line fuel system as it sits with an external pump, obviously though i need to step it up to a fuel injection pump and filter though. Its currently routed to the stock pick up though and hose clamped on there, i plan to sump the tank and route them that way during this conversion though. I dont understand complaints about the loud pumps i dont hear mine at all over the exhaust haha.
If i ditch the AC, car currently has had all ac/heat items gutted and firewall welded up, will everything else clear with the CTS-V pullies? should just be a matter of changing belt sizes and be good to go?
Currently its a griffin radiator with two flexalites on a manual switch, kept having thermostat controls burn up on me. So i would like to keep them manual if possible.
Transmission i plan to run my 700r still its fully built with a manual valve body and will be able to handle anything this motor throws at it.
I dont know if im oversimplifying or what but my plan and budget kind of sits like this in a nutshell. It seems like im not missing anything, but it also seems to simple and too cheap at the moment....
1. 300-500 for a new converter for the 700 with a face for an ls2
2 4000ish for the LS2 from a cad, ditch the ac and install it with the adapters 120 or so with the mounts and everything
3 between free and 450 to get the wiring harness straightened out to run standalone. depending if i do it or send it off.
4 around 500 for the headers
5 however much the fuel system runs....
a parting question how "stupid" can you make the computer, i would prefer to get it to the point where it it simply keeps track of my timing and fuel, thats it. i would prefer it not to deal with my cooling system or anything else.
If i ditch the AC, car currently has had all ac/heat items gutted and firewall welded up, will everything else clear with the CTS-V pullies? should just be a matter of changing belt sizes and be good to go?
Currently its a griffin radiator with two flexalites on a manual switch, kept having thermostat controls burn up on me. So i would like to keep them manual if possible.
Transmission i plan to run my 700r still its fully built with a manual valve body and will be able to handle anything this motor throws at it.
I dont know if im oversimplifying or what but my plan and budget kind of sits like this in a nutshell. It seems like im not missing anything, but it also seems to simple and too cheap at the moment....
1. 300-500 for a new converter for the 700 with a face for an ls2
2 4000ish for the LS2 from a cad, ditch the ac and install it with the adapters 120 or so with the mounts and everything
3 between free and 450 to get the wiring harness straightened out to run standalone. depending if i do it or send it off.
4 around 500 for the headers
5 however much the fuel system runs....
a parting question how "stupid" can you make the computer, i would prefer to get it to the point where it it simply keeps track of my timing and fuel, thats it. i would prefer it not to deal with my cooling system or anything else.
01-25-2008, 10:18 PM
#7
There is a 3000 mile 07 CTS-V LS2 with 6 speed, complete drop out on EBay right now for $7800. Not a bad deal when you consider it has all accessories and the pan you want.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/07-CT...spagenameZWDVW
Pat
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/07-CT...spagenameZWDVW
Pat
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01-26-2008, 02:56 AM
#8
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There is a 3000 mile 07 CTS-V LS2 with 6 speed, complete drop out on EBay right now for $7800. Not a bad deal when you consider it has all accessories and the pan you want.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/07-CT...spagenameZWDVW
Pat
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/07-CT...spagenameZWDVW
Pat
01-26-2008, 10:16 AM
#10
I also see that there has been a growing interest in the Hummer H3 oil pan which seem very simular to the CTS-V size. BRP is not marketing a few kits around the HUM H3 pan.
You can save a few more buck by just building your own Adapter plates. I did with just some 1/4" plate Steel and just using hand tools, grinders, cutting wheels, drill and tap.. and I had my (BRP Style) adaper for $10.00 and a few hours (plus another hour or so for my home powder coating) of work.
You can save a few more buck by just building your own Adapter plates. I did with just some 1/4" plate Steel and just using hand tools, grinders, cutting wheels, drill and tap.. and I had my (BRP Style) adaper for $10.00 and a few hours (plus another hour or so for my home powder coating) of work.
01-26-2008, 02:44 PM
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If in a few months i decide to go this route versus going with another olds, I'll definitely be willing to make my own mounts and save some pennies if i can get precise measurements from someone
01-26-2008, 03:14 PM
#12
I never thought about how i was going to use the tv cable until now..... that may wind up being a challenge in its self...
If in a few months i decide to go this route versus going with another olds, I'll definitely be willing to make my own mounts and save some pennies if i can get precise measurements from someone
If in a few months i decide to go this route versus going with another olds, I'll definitely be willing to make my own mounts and save some pennies if i can get precise measurements from someone
So I welded a bracket to the pedal base to hold the cable housing, and welded a bracket onto the pedal to hold the cable end. This worked out fine... cable is just barely tight when gas pedal isn't pressed, and at WOT cable is fully pulled.
01-26-2008, 04:44 PM
#13
For my th350 TV cable, I measured that the cable needs to be pulled 1inch from full closed to fully open. Measured the angle that my electronic pedal swings from unpressed to WOT and it is 23*. I calculated that in order to get 1" of cable travel over 23* rotation, cable needs to be pulled at a radius of 2.79" from center of rotation (pedal pivot pin).
So I welded a bracket to the pedal base to hold the cable housing, and welded a bracket onto the pedal to hold the cable end. This worked out fine... cable is just barely tight when gas pedal isn't pressed, and at WOT cable is fully pulled.
So I welded a bracket to the pedal base to hold the cable housing, and welded a bracket onto the pedal to hold the cable end. This worked out fine... cable is just barely tight when gas pedal isn't pressed, and at WOT cable is fully pulled.
01-26-2008, 06:08 PM
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actually thats a really easy simple way of doing it, that i wouldve never thought of myself. the only thing is that seems like you lose the adjustability of the cable for shift points.
Ryan and chevelle guys, did you have any issues with the brake booster and an ls engine
Ryan and chevelle guys, did you have any issues with the brake booster and an ls engine
01-26-2008, 06:41 PM
#15
A studying mechanical, not quite graduated yet...
I actually forgot to mention one thing. Where the cable housing meets its bracket, I put in a "barrel adjuster". If you don't know what this is, it's off of a mountain bike brake, essentially a hollowed bolt with a locknut that lets you adjust the pre-loading/tension on the TV cable by about 3/4".
I actually forgot to mention one thing. Where the cable housing meets its bracket, I put in a "barrel adjuster". If you don't know what this is, it's off of a mountain bike brake, essentially a hollowed bolt with a locknut that lets you adjust the pre-loading/tension on the TV cable by about 3/4".
01-26-2008, 07:58 PM
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and the award for the most useless post ever goes toooooo......... that guy^^^^
now if i ever have the desire to put 200lb weights on all 4 corners and make my trunk useless i will no how to approach the problem
looks like someone took a shotgun to the firewall, guess someone was trying to put the car out of its misery haha
frojoe, thanks for the help man. Thats a pretty good way of doing it. Still puzzled if a stock booster will clear.... looks like it will just would like to KNOW...
now if i ever have the desire to put 200lb weights on all 4 corners and make my trunk useless i will no how to approach the problem
looks like someone took a shotgun to the firewall, guess someone was trying to put the car out of its misery haha
frojoe, thanks for the help man. Thats a pretty good way of doing it. Still puzzled if a stock booster will clear.... looks like it will just would like to KNOW...
Last edited by hotrodolds; 01-26-2008 at 08:03 PM.
01-26-2008, 08:06 PM
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damn it boy, your going all out arent you. If i do this ill be doing FI eventually thats a long time off still though. It would be nice to have an engines whose block doesnt crank in to at 10psi
01-26-2008, 11:37 PM
#20
No problem with the Brake Booster unit and the valve cover/coils. You can find the template for both the BRP and S&P style templates in the FAQ/Sticky of this forum.
With the S&P style mount, they use the factory location of the Frame mounts and there a few variation of location of the motor mount to the adapter.. that is how they move or location the engine location.
With the BRP, they relocate the Frame mount on the cross member.. (weld or drill new holes)
Those are the two method of how they location then engine. Since your not going to use the A/C and using the Vette accessories, either one will work, but not relocating the frame mount would be less work.
And as few as the Olds's above.., to each his own.. but if the paint was toned down a bit and change the bling bling rim to some performance 17/18's.. it might look a bit presentable.. but that is my 2 cents..
With the S&P style mount, they use the factory location of the Frame mounts and there a few variation of location of the motor mount to the adapter.. that is how they move or location the engine location.
With the BRP, they relocate the Frame mount on the cross member.. (weld or drill new holes)
Those are the two method of how they location then engine. Since your not going to use the A/C and using the Vette accessories, either one will work, but not relocating the frame mount would be less work.
And as few as the Olds's above.., to each his own.. but if the paint was toned down a bit and change the bling bling rim to some performance 17/18's.. it might look a bit presentable.. but that is my 2 cents..