Going from 8 point roll bar to 10 point roll cage
12-09-2009, 04:20 AM
#1
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Going from 8 point roll bar to 10 point roll cage I currently have an mild steel 8 point S&W roll bar in my car. I want to upgrade to a 10 point cage. I know they make a 10 point conversion kit for my car, but is the weight savings and safety worth cutting it out to go with a chromemoly 10 point kit from wolfe?
If it is better to cut the cage out, can I reuse the mounting pads that were welded in for the 8 PT? If not what should I do with them? Do I need to cut them out and reweld everything?
Also is my 8pt. bar reusable if it is cut out properly? I ask because we are building a budget build for my father to braket race with and the car may not even go 11.49, but if it would be legal to reuse the cage we would put it in just in case.
I appreciate any info. I can cut, weld and fabricate the bars as needed, I am just not sure how the rules go.
If it make any diff. the 8 pt bar connects to the rear frame rails and is not welded on the flat over the gas tank.
If it is better to cut the cage out, can I reuse the mounting pads that were welded in for the 8 PT? If not what should I do with them? Do I need to cut them out and reweld everything?
Also is my 8pt. bar reusable if it is cut out properly? I ask because we are building a budget build for my father to braket race with and the car may not even go 11.49, but if it would be legal to reuse the cage we would put it in just in case.
I appreciate any info. I can cut, weld and fabricate the bars as needed, I am just not sure how the rules go.
If it make any diff. the 8 pt bar connects to the rear frame rails and is not welded on the flat over the gas tank.
12-09-2009, 06:15 AM
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The swap from ms to cm would probably not be worth it for as much as it will cost you to convert over. The weight savings would be ~30 lbs for the price of a Wolfe Racecraft CM 10pt which I believe is around $650 (I'm not looking it up) plus shipping, and thats if you do the install. The only other benefit of CM is a better selling point that I really see.
I am cutting out my MS 6pt to put in a CM cage. But I'm not just putting in a 10pt, I am putting in a CM round tube chassis (25.2 car basically) with absolutely no factory floor panels with a 4-link coil over suspension. Funny car cage, x-braced door bars, round tube frame, the works. The selling point down the road will be 10x's better than a MS 2x3 car not to mention much lighter since there will be soo much tubing required. I wouldn't swap though if I was you, JMO.
As far as cutting out your cage for your dad's car I am going to have to strongly recommend that you don't do that. The only way you could gt it out is by cutting the door bars and the rear support rails off of the main hoop to get it out. You could clean up the main hoop and attempt to reuse it but the heat and the penetration of the welds in my opinion would compromise the bar enough to not replace it since you will have to cut the rest of the bars up on the cage to not replace it all with a complete kit. You can try to remove it all together, but I promise you it will not work. Been there, done that...
I am cutting out my MS 6pt to put in a CM cage. But I'm not just putting in a 10pt, I am putting in a CM round tube chassis (25.2 car basically) with absolutely no factory floor panels with a 4-link coil over suspension. Funny car cage, x-braced door bars, round tube frame, the works. The selling point down the road will be 10x's better than a MS 2x3 car not to mention much lighter since there will be soo much tubing required. I wouldn't swap though if I was you, JMO.
As far as cutting out your cage for your dad's car I am going to have to strongly recommend that you don't do that. The only way you could gt it out is by cutting the door bars and the rear support rails off of the main hoop to get it out. You could clean up the main hoop and attempt to reuse it but the heat and the penetration of the welds in my opinion would compromise the bar enough to not replace it since you will have to cut the rest of the bars up on the cage to not replace it all with a complete kit. You can try to remove it all together, but I promise you it will not work. Been there, done that...
12-09-2009, 07:40 AM
#3
I suspect it will be better to cut it out and put in CM. Weight savings alone should be enough to do it. Also if you have a quality fab guy, he can mold the cage around you which I think if I EVER do that, will need that kind of attention. Being 6'4" and on the larger side needs that consideration.
12-09-2009, 07:46 AM
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I suspect it will be better to cut it out and put in CM. Weight savings alone should be enough to do it. Also if you have a quality fab guy, he can mold the cage around you which I think if I EVER do that, will need that kind of attention. Being 6'4" and on the larger side needs that consideration.
12-09-2009, 07:50 AM
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The swap from ms to cm would probably not be worth it for as much as it will cost you to convert over. The weight savings would be ~30 lbs for the price of a Wolfe Racecraft CM 10pt which I believe is around $650 (I'm not looking it up) plus shipping, and thats if you do the install. The only other benefit of CM is a better selling point that I really see.
I am cutting out my MS 6pt to put in a CM cage. But I'm not just putting in a 10pt, I am putting in a CM round tube chassis (25.2 car basically) with absolutely no factory floor panels with a 4-link coil over suspension. Funny car cage, x-braced door bars, round tube frame, the works. The selling point down the road will be 10x's better than a MS 2x3 car not to mention much lighter since there will be soo much tubing required. I wouldn't swap though if I was you, JMO.
As far as cutting out your cage for your dad's car I am going to have to strongly recommend that you don't do that. The only way you could gt it out is by cutting the door bars and the rear support rails off of the main hoop to get it out. You could clean up the main hoop and attempt to reuse it but the heat and the penetration of the welds in my opinion would compromise the bar enough to not replace it since you will have to cut the rest of the bars up on the cage to not replace it all with a complete kit. You can try to remove it all together, but I promise you it will not work. Been there, done that...
I am cutting out my MS 6pt to put in a CM cage. But I'm not just putting in a 10pt, I am putting in a CM round tube chassis (25.2 car basically) with absolutely no factory floor panels with a 4-link coil over suspension. Funny car cage, x-braced door bars, round tube frame, the works. The selling point down the road will be 10x's better than a MS 2x3 car not to mention much lighter since there will be soo much tubing required. I wouldn't swap though if I was you, JMO.
As far as cutting out your cage for your dad's car I am going to have to strongly recommend that you don't do that. The only way you could gt it out is by cutting the door bars and the rear support rails off of the main hoop to get it out. You could clean up the main hoop and attempt to reuse it but the heat and the penetration of the welds in my opinion would compromise the bar enough to not replace it since you will have to cut the rest of the bars up on the cage to not replace it all with a complete kit. You can try to remove it all together, but I promise you it will not work. Been there, done that...
I guess it isn't worth it with the roll bar being cut out going into my fathers car. I forgot that thing didn't even cost me $200 if I wanted to get another one to put in his it is cheap enough. It seemed like a good idea when I was typing this lol.
I appreciate the info so far. Anyone else have any input?
12-09-2009, 08:12 AM
#6
Yea, I wont post my weight but I know I need to shave down. Lol.
But now thinking about it, start seeing if NHRA will allow cages that get cut up as I see you having to put in a smaller diameter tube to reinforce the tube after it is cut, I beleive its called a Butt Weld. i do not know the exact term. I saw ti on Extreme 4x4 and this is the closest pic I saw....
I do not know if NHRA will allow a tube with in a tube for reconnecting the original tube. For your dad, cut a new cage IMO.
But now thinking about it, start seeing if NHRA will allow cages that get cut up as I see you having to put in a smaller diameter tube to reinforce the tube after it is cut, I beleive its called a Butt Weld. i do not know the exact term. I saw ti on Extreme 4x4 and this is the closest pic I saw....
I do not know if NHRA will allow a tube with in a tube for reconnecting the original tube. For your dad, cut a new cage IMO.
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12-09-2009, 10:00 AM
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I just did the upgrade from Spohn S&W 8 point to 10 point. I bought the before dash bars and upper hoop from SW and they fit like crap and gave me no headroom or legal place to mount the window net. I ended up having a chassis guy custom bending bars and upper hoop so I had head clearance and could get in the car (i'm 6'2). Turned out pretty nice and only added 21lbs to the weight of the car. He left the door bars 1 3/4 and made the front bars and upper hoop 1 5/8.
I'll see if I can snap some pictures tonight.
I'll see if I can snap some pictures tonight.
12-09-2009, 05:33 PM
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Here's how we ran the add on bars to the Spohn/SW 8 point. I didn't want to hassle with removing the dash since this is a track only car. I can get in and out just fine.
12-10-2009, 08:05 AM
#11
WOW does that around the dash setup look like a knee-buster. you get in and out of that car 10 times without whacking your kees to the point of needing medical attenion, it will be a miracle. Nevermind if you had to take the dash out.... that's damn near impossible now.
I'm surprised anyone actually does it that way, sure if you're keeping teh hvac it's probably easier, certainly easier to install not having to deal with dash removal and whatnot, but still..... no way would I want that bar there.
I'm surprised anyone actually does it that way, sure if you're keeping teh hvac it's probably easier, certainly easier to install not having to deal with dash removal and whatnot, but still..... no way would I want that bar there.
12-10-2009, 08:37 AM
#12
I dunno, I guess if you want the bragging rights saying the car is full weight but legal/functional for the track thats cool, but like JL said, thats def hazardous looking. I think if your at the point where you need a 10 point, you should be gutting the car and putting in at best that Mohave(sp) heater for defrosting the windows. Or leaving the cage out of it and just street driving it......
** Now looking at that bend, is that even safe or legal?? I mean if a certain type of impact were to occur, lets say a flip, and landing on the roof, would not a bend that has started, continue!?
** Now looking at that bend, is that even safe or legal?? I mean if a certain type of impact were to occur, lets say a flip, and landing on the roof, would not a bend that has started, continue!?
12-10-2009, 06:40 PM
#13
Especially since a wolfe 4130 cage is .095 wall thickness, and the rule is .083, .058, .065 depending on what bars your talking about. Custom 4130 cage will save weight, yes. but not much.
12-10-2009, 06:44 PM
#14
I currently have an mild steel 8 point S&W roll bar in my car. I want to upgrade to a 10 point cage. I know they make a 10 point conversion kit for my car, but is the weight savings and safety worth cutting it out to go with a chromemoly 10 point kit from wolfe?
If it is better to cut the cage out, can I reuse the mounting pads that were welded in for the 8 PT? If not what should I do with them? Do I need to cut them out and reweld everything?
Also is my 8pt. bar reusable if it is cut out properly? I ask because we are building a budget build for my father to braket race with and the car may not even go 11.49, but if it would be legal to reuse the cage we would put it in just in case.
I appreciate any info. I can cut, weld and fabricate the bars as needed, I am just not sure how the rules go.
If it make any diff. the 8 pt bar connects to the rear frame rails and is not welded on the flat over the gas tank.
If it is better to cut the cage out, can I reuse the mounting pads that were welded in for the 8 PT? If not what should I do with them? Do I need to cut them out and reweld everything?
Also is my 8pt. bar reusable if it is cut out properly? I ask because we are building a budget build for my father to braket race with and the car may not even go 11.49, but if it would be legal to reuse the cage we would put it in just in case.
I appreciate any info. I can cut, weld and fabricate the bars as needed, I am just not sure how the rules go.
If it make any diff. the 8 pt bar connects to the rear frame rails and is not welded on the flat over the gas tank.
12-10-2009, 06:45 PM
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ive installed sw cage kits and wolfe cage kits in our cars and for our cars you cant beat the fitment wolfe gives if i were you id buy the wolfe 10 point ms kit. the sw kit is nice its just too universal and not formed to the bodies too well at least not f bodies. -tony-
12-13-2009, 12:18 PM
#17
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ive installed sw cage kits and wolfe cage kits in our cars and for our cars you cant beat the fitment wolfe gives if i were you id buy the wolfe 10 point ms kit. the sw kit is nice its just too universal and not formed to the bodies too well at least not f bodies. -tony-
Now one other question is do I grind down and reuse the mounting plates from the 8 pt. ? If not what do I have to do ?
12-13-2009, 12:29 PM
#18
I think when I went from my Wolfe Mild Steel 6 point to my Wofe CM 10 point I only gained like 5-10 lbs. So yes the CM is worth it
According to Wolfe website the shipping weight on a MS 6 point is 80-85 lbs MS 10 point is 130-135lbs and CM point is 90-95 lbs. Hope this helps
According to Wolfe website the shipping weight on a MS 6 point is 80-85 lbs MS 10 point is 130-135lbs and CM point is 90-95 lbs. Hope this helps
12-13-2009, 05:49 PM
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so is the wolf 6 point and ther 10 point different diameters of tubing?
I was told to buy a 10 point but put in the 6 point of it now, as the track really doesn't check thickness- and when I get fast enough put the rest of it in and be certified to run the #.
Is there any truth to this? If so I will be buying a 10 point after christmas.
I was told to buy a 10 point but put in the 6 point of it now, as the track really doesn't check thickness- and when I get fast enough put the rest of it in and be certified to run the #.
Is there any truth to this? If so I will be buying a 10 point after christmas.
12-13-2009, 06:06 PM
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you can grind down the plates and reuse em.some may differ and say the heat will affect it but its solid steel plate so it will b fine and you would be most likely ruining your floor trying to pull those up.
