Who really understands engine technology?
08-01-2015, 07:10 PM
#1
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Who really understands engine technology? Had a hard time finding a place for this post, so mods move it as you see fit.
So the reason why i am here is because I'm looking for someone, probably and engineer, who really understands engines. My question is this, what is it that holds the 3800 engine back from making big power? There are plenty of engines out there making 100hp/liter stock. Mine makes 52.63hp/liter at the crank. A measily 44hp/liter at the wheels. Why is this? What is it about the other motors out there? Enlighten me. My $3000 in parts well likely only or me at 250 crank hp, and that just sucks! I do plan on aging a turbo down the road, but i really want to understand engine tech.
So the reason why i am here is because I'm looking for someone, probably and engineer, who really understands engines. My question is this, what is it that holds the 3800 engine back from making big power? There are plenty of engines out there making 100hp/liter stock. Mine makes 52.63hp/liter at the crank. A measily 44hp/liter at the wheels. Why is this? What is it about the other motors out there? Enlighten me. My $3000 in parts well likely only or me at 250 crank hp, and that just sucks! I do plan on aging a turbo down the road, but i really want to understand engine tech.
08-02-2015, 04:29 AM
#3
For a given displacement and peak RPM, heads and cam shafts/valve events make power.
I'm assuming you're talking about a non-supercharged GM 3.8L. They have a red line of 5,500. All the 100 hp/liter engines I know of spin much higher. RPM is part of the equation for figuring horse power, so it's a big factor for a small engine.
I can't think of a single naturally aspirated v6 or v8 that makes 100 hp/liter. Even modified. It's just hard to do without forced induction.
I'm curious why you have so much money into a naturally aspirated 3.8.
What mods have you done?
I'm all for building something unusual, but the support isn't really there for that engine. I know there are pulleys for the supercharged engines, headers would fit either, and I would imagine there are some cam shaft options. You can have the heads and intake ported, get a cam and headers, but there's not much else. The right cam and valve springs would allow you to spin it higher, but Idk what the RPM limits are on a stock short block or if there are upgrades for things like push rods and rockers. No idea if there are stronger rotating assembly parts that'd hold up to higher rpm.
Anyway, in the end, if you want over 300 hp from an old push rod V6, you're gonna need a turbo or supercharger.
I'm assuming you're talking about a non-supercharged GM 3.8L. They have a red line of 5,500. All the 100 hp/liter engines I know of spin much higher. RPM is part of the equation for figuring horse power, so it's a big factor for a small engine.
I can't think of a single naturally aspirated v6 or v8 that makes 100 hp/liter. Even modified. It's just hard to do without forced induction.
I'm curious why you have so much money into a naturally aspirated 3.8.
What mods have you done?
I'm all for building something unusual, but the support isn't really there for that engine. I know there are pulleys for the supercharged engines, headers would fit either, and I would imagine there are some cam shaft options. You can have the heads and intake ported, get a cam and headers, but there's not much else. The right cam and valve springs would allow you to spin it higher, but Idk what the RPM limits are on a stock short block or if there are upgrades for things like push rods and rockers. No idea if there are stronger rotating assembly parts that'd hold up to higher rpm.
Anyway, in the end, if you want over 300 hp from an old push rod V6, you're gonna need a turbo or supercharger.
08-02-2015, 01:29 PM
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Who really understands engine technology? Basically my mods are exhaust, headers, overbore pistons with 10.5:1 compression, comp cam, LS7 lifters, better timing setup, p&p heads with LS3 springs, rerainers, and locks, ported intakes, 30lb injectors, bigger valves, pcm tune. I have a manual tranny and my shift point will be around 6500. Its not all together yet, but that's what I've bought so far. Engine is at the machine shop right now.
08-03-2015, 12:40 AM
#5
For a given displacement and peak RPM, heads and cam shafts/valve events make power.
I'm assuming you're talking about a non-supercharged GM 3.8L. They have a red line of 5,500. All the 100 hp/liter engines I know of spin much higher. RPM is part of the equation for figuring horse power, so it's a big factor for a small engine.
I can't think of a single naturally aspirated v6 or v8 that makes 100 hp/liter. Even modified. It's just hard to do without forced induction.
I'm curious why you have so much money into a naturally aspirated 3.8.
What mods have you done?
I'm all for building something unusual, but the support isn't really there for that engine. I know there are pulleys for the supercharged engines, headers would fit either, and I would imagine there are some cam shaft options. You can have the heads and intake ported, get a cam and headers, but there's not much else. The right cam and valve springs would allow you to spin it higher, but Idk what the RPM limits are on a stock short block or if there are upgrades for things like push rods and rockers. No idea if there are stronger rotating assembly parts that'd hold up to higher rpm.
Anyway, in the end, if you want over 300 hp from an old push rod V6, you're gonna need a turbo or supercharger.
I'm assuming you're talking about a non-supercharged GM 3.8L. They have a red line of 5,500. All the 100 hp/liter engines I know of spin much higher. RPM is part of the equation for figuring horse power, so it's a big factor for a small engine.
I can't think of a single naturally aspirated v6 or v8 that makes 100 hp/liter. Even modified. It's just hard to do without forced induction.
I'm curious why you have so much money into a naturally aspirated 3.8.
What mods have you done?
I'm all for building something unusual, but the support isn't really there for that engine. I know there are pulleys for the supercharged engines, headers would fit either, and I would imagine there are some cam shaft options. You can have the heads and intake ported, get a cam and headers, but there's not much else. The right cam and valve springs would allow you to spin it higher, but Idk what the RPM limits are on a stock short block or if there are upgrades for things like push rods and rockers. No idea if there are stronger rotating assembly parts that'd hold up to higher rpm.
Anyway, in the end, if you want over 300 hp from an old push rod V6, you're gonna need a turbo or supercharger.
100hp/liter can be done with a V8 very easily. My engine build just built a street motor with a single 4 barrel that made 115hp/liter.
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08-03-2015, 02:00 AM
#8
I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'd be interested in seeing that engine.
No V8 makes anywhere near 100hp/liter stock. I guess I should've said they can modified, but those are top of the line builds.
LS7 is 7.0L, 500hp stock.
LS1s are 5.7L, 350hp stock.
Even modified you're pushing it to get 700 and 570 hp out of those engines with the best of everything.
It's possible, but very few people are doing it naturally aspirated. It's not something to be expected from every push rod v8 and v6 just because Honda did it with a 2.4 in the S2000
Last edited by t_raven; 08-03-2015 at 02:09 AM.
08-03-2015, 11:26 AM
#10
There are a few high revving, smaller displacement engines that do. I've got an R1. Red line is 15,000 rpm. If you could rev v8s that high they'd make huge hp, but they'd have no bottom end.
I just looked at Tony Mamos 454 build. He used top of the line everything and made 731hp out of 7.44 liters. So even one of the best built engines on here didn't quite make it. It can be done if built strictly for high rpms or race gas. It's just not that realistic for a street/strip engine on pump gas.
I just looked at Tony Mamos 454 build. He used top of the line everything and made 731hp out of 7.44 liters. So even one of the best built engines on here didn't quite make it. It can be done if built strictly for high rpms or race gas. It's just not that realistic for a street/strip engine on pump gas.
08-04-2015, 12:42 AM
#11
Are you confusing hp/ci with hp/liter? 1.15hp/ci is easy. 115hp/liter out of a v8 is not. In a 6.0 that would be 690hp. Out of a 5.0 that'd be 545hp. That sounds like all out drag stuff to me, not street engines.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'd be interested in seeing that engine.
No V8 makes anywhere near 100hp/liter stock. I guess I should've said they can modified, but those are top of the line builds.
LS7 is 7.0L, 500hp stock.
LS1s are 5.7L, 350hp stock.
Even modified you're pushing it to get 700 and 570 hp out of those engines with the best of everything.
It's possible, but very few people are doing it naturally aspirated. It's not something to be expected from every push rod v8 and v6 just because Honda did it with a 2.4 in the S2000
I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'd be interested in seeing that engine.
No V8 makes anywhere near 100hp/liter stock. I guess I should've said they can modified, but those are top of the line builds.
LS7 is 7.0L, 500hp stock.
LS1s are 5.7L, 350hp stock.
Even modified you're pushing it to get 700 and 570 hp out of those engines with the best of everything.
It's possible, but very few people are doing it naturally aspirated. It's not something to be expected from every push rod v8 and v6 just because Honda did it with a 2.4 in the S2000
500 cubic inches = 8.194 liters
They make 1500 + horsepower
1500/8.194 = 183 horsepower per liter
We just dyno'd a 582 cubic inch Ford. It was a decent build but nothing exotic. Hell, it only had 1 4-barrel carb on it.
582 cubic inches = 9.537 liters
It made 1094 horsepower
1094/9.537 = 114 horsepower per liter
In the world of ls motors it happens all the time as well. I've personally seen several N/A 6.0's make over 600 horsepower.
It is nowhere near as difficult as you think.
08-04-2015, 01:00 AM
#12
You could take a stock bottom end 6.0 with off the shelf parts can make over 600. A good set of heads, a correct cam shaft, some compression and matching intake and headers will get you over 600 without much work..........and you certainly won't need any one-off exotic parts.
It is obvious you just aren't around decent stuff. But just because you arent around it doesn't mean tons of other people aren't getting it done.
It is obvious you just aren't around decent stuff. But just because you arent around it doesn't mean tons of other people aren't getting it done.
08-04-2015, 02:26 AM
#13
I really don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to dedicated drag cars and race fuel because that's just not something I have had a desire to build, so I haven't kept up on that stuff. We are getting an 1/8th mile track in my town though so it's got me more interested in drag racing. Unfortunately I've never been around a drag strip.
His original post said there are engines making 100 hp/lt stock. Very few do. Very few modified street engines do.
That put me in the mindset of street engines on pump gas. If we're talking pro stock stuff on race gas, that's a different story. When you're pushing the limits of compression ratios and race fuel, then yeah, it's not uncommon.
I think we're both right, we were just talking about engines build for different purposes. It can be done with a pump gas engine, but your average weekend racer like most guys on this forum are not making that much per liter.
Maybe I'm totally wrong, but I like to follow engine builds and dyno results. I just don't see 100hp/liter out of pump gas street engines being posted on the forums I frequent. Maybe it's happening more than I see
His original post said there are engines making 100 hp/lt stock. Very few do. Very few modified street engines do.
That put me in the mindset of street engines on pump gas. If we're talking pro stock stuff on race gas, that's a different story. When you're pushing the limits of compression ratios and race fuel, then yeah, it's not uncommon.
I think we're both right, we were just talking about engines build for different purposes. It can be done with a pump gas engine, but your average weekend racer like most guys on this forum are not making that much per liter.
Maybe I'm totally wrong, but I like to follow engine builds and dyno results. I just don't see 100hp/liter out of pump gas street engines being posted on the forums I frequent. Maybe it's happening more than I see
Last edited by t_raven; 08-04-2015 at 02:33 AM.
08-04-2015, 03:19 AM
#14
Here's another one from today
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...eads-dyno.html
418=6.85L
682 hp. That's close enough to round up to 100hp/ltr, but doesn't break it.
Plus these types of dyno results are considered gross vs net like OEM ratings, so a 100hp/ltr factory engine would be more than that with a gross rating. Meaning a V8 hitting 100hp/ltr gross is still not making 100hp/ltr, with an apples to apples comparison.
PS: I'm not trying to win any argument here, we're just gear heads talking horsepower
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...eads-dyno.html
418=6.85L
682 hp. That's close enough to round up to 100hp/ltr, but doesn't break it.
Plus these types of dyno results are considered gross vs net like OEM ratings, so a 100hp/ltr factory engine would be more than that with a gross rating. Meaning a V8 hitting 100hp/ltr gross is still not making 100hp/ltr, with an apples to apples comparison.
PS: I'm not trying to win any argument here, we're just gear heads talking horsepower
08-04-2015, 04:47 AM
#15
Just saw this intake comparison
Edit: I forgot the link https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...es-tested.html
The FAST 102, MSD Atomic Airforce, Edelbrock Pro-Flow, and Holley Hi-Ram EFI were all dang close to 600hp on a 6.0. Pretty impressive.
Edit: I forgot the link https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...es-tested.html
The FAST 102, MSD Atomic Airforce, Edelbrock Pro-Flow, and Holley Hi-Ram EFI were all dang close to 600hp on a 6.0. Pretty impressive.
Last edited by t_raven; 08-05-2015 at 01:38 AM.
08-04-2015, 08:41 AM
#17
Who really understands engine technology? The heads are your restriction. LS engines have great heads. HP is an exact measurement of torque x rpm. If you can't increase torque, you have to increase rpm. With low flowing heads, you can only raise rpm so much. This is why you see comp cars with 300ci engines making 700ish hp. They are using solid roller valve train to rev over 10,000rpm to get their power.
08-04-2015, 10:12 AM
#18
Had a hard time finding a place for this post, so mods move it as you see fit.
So the reason why i am here is because I'm looking for someone, probably and engineer, who really understands engines. My question is this, what is it that holds the 3800 engine back from making big power? There are plenty of engines out there making 100hp/liter stock. Mine makes 52.63hp/liter at the crank. A measily 44hp/liter at the wheels. Why is this? What is it about the other motors out there? Enlighten me. My $3000 in parts well likely only or me at 250 crank hp, and that just sucks! I do plan on aging a turbo down the road, but i really want to understand engine tech.
So the reason why i am here is because I'm looking for someone, probably and engineer, who really understands engines. My question is this, what is it that holds the 3800 engine back from making big power? There are plenty of engines out there making 100hp/liter stock. Mine makes 52.63hp/liter at the crank. A measily 44hp/liter at the wheels. Why is this? What is it about the other motors out there? Enlighten me. My $3000 in parts well likely only or me at 250 crank hp, and that just sucks! I do plan on aging a turbo down the road, but i really want to understand engine tech.
You need great flowing heads to make power and the stock 3.8 doesn't have them.
For $3k you could have built an LS 5.3L that would really make power.
08-07-2015, 10:42 AM
#19
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I am looking into the heads right now. I have already opened the exhaust and intake ports significantly, as well as opening up the coolant ports a bit. I wonder if I can mimic cathedral ports on these heads?
08-08-2015, 01:43 AM
#20
Is this fo Reeel?
Part of me wants to tell you that the heads you have will easily grind out to cathedral port size and to go for it. That way you ruin them and are forced to move on to other things and quit wasting your time and money.
You ported the water jackets?
Part of me wants to tell you that the heads you have will easily grind out to cathedral port size and to go for it. That way you ruin them and are forced to move on to other things and quit wasting your time and money.
You ported the water jackets?