I hate six speeds!!
07-01-2002, 08:31 PM
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I hate six speeds!! at the track that is. I was planning on converting to an auto in a couple of weeks, but wanted to get in a few more six-speed passes and hope that nothing would break. Well, should have hoped a little harder.
My drivetrain consists of a McLeod twin, T56, carbon fiber driveshaft, KTRE 12-bolt with 33-spline axles, and beefy wheel studs. I figured that the most likely thing I was going to break was going to be the tranny, rearend, or shear some wheel studs. What breaks? The frickin twin-disk clutch! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="gr_images/icons/mad.gif" /> Anyway, it was on the fourth pass of the night out at HRP. After cutting some cruddy 1.6 to 1.65 60 foots (but yanking the wheels pretty well), I decided to let Josh drive my car (since he pratically built it) and see if he could do any better. Well, 4000 RPM clutch dump and car doesn't move an inch. Oops. Was not Josh's fault - I would have done the same thing next pass anyway. So much for the bullet-proof twin-disk. Edit: See edit below - was not the clutch.
Anyway, after going through this, I am realizing that I love 6-speeds on the road but hate them at the track. No torque convertor for the 60-foot. You *have* to powershift for the best times (which I won't do), which will kill your synchros. Missed shift can equal bent valves or worse. And it will BREAK your car, no matter how much you beef up your drivetrain.
Well, enough of this. Here comes built 200-4R, Yank stall, and a little N2O for some fun.
BTW, kudos to the MTI and LS1Tech guys for helping me get my car out of there last night. Appreciated the help <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" /> Beers are on me.
MAJOR EDIT: At the track, the car acted just like it had a broken clutch, and a quick check seemed to confirm that. The car finally went up on the rack today (Wednesday), and found out that it was not a broken clutch, but a broken carbon-fiber driveshaft. It fooled everyone since it did not make the typical sounds a broken shaft would make.
<small>[ July 03, 2002, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: WeatherGuy ]</small>
My drivetrain consists of a McLeod twin, T56, carbon fiber driveshaft, KTRE 12-bolt with 33-spline axles, and beefy wheel studs. I figured that the most likely thing I was going to break was going to be the tranny, rearend, or shear some wheel studs. What breaks? The frickin twin-disk clutch! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="gr_images/icons/mad.gif" /> Anyway, it was on the fourth pass of the night out at HRP. After cutting some cruddy 1.6 to 1.65 60 foots (but yanking the wheels pretty well), I decided to let Josh drive my car (since he pratically built it) and see if he could do any better. Well, 4000 RPM clutch dump and car doesn't move an inch. Oops. Was not Josh's fault - I would have done the same thing next pass anyway. So much for the bullet-proof twin-disk. Edit: See edit below - was not the clutch.
Anyway, after going through this, I am realizing that I love 6-speeds on the road but hate them at the track. No torque convertor for the 60-foot. You *have* to powershift for the best times (which I won't do), which will kill your synchros. Missed shift can equal bent valves or worse. And it will BREAK your car, no matter how much you beef up your drivetrain.
Well, enough of this. Here comes built 200-4R, Yank stall, and a little N2O for some fun.
BTW, kudos to the MTI and LS1Tech guys for helping me get my car out of there last night. Appreciated the help <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" /> Beers are on me.
MAJOR EDIT: At the track, the car acted just like it had a broken clutch, and a quick check seemed to confirm that. The car finally went up on the rack today (Wednesday), and found out that it was not a broken clutch, but a broken carbon-fiber driveshaft. It fooled everyone since it did not make the typical sounds a broken shaft would make.
<small>[ July 03, 2002, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: WeatherGuy ]</small>
07-01-2002, 08:48 PM
#2
Re: I hate six speeds!! Sorry to hear this. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Sad]" src="gr_sad.gif" />
I hope everything works out for ya. <img border="0" alt="[angel]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_angel.gif" />
#58-6,000rpm clutch dumps. So far so good. <img border="0" alt="[hail]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_hail.gif" />
If I break anything major.(If i don't go to a bad *** Lenco 4 speed) The plan is to put in a glide, pro tree-transbrake, big fat convert, air shirter and a delay box.(The Works) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_tounge.gif" />
Remember: This is a race car that I drive on the street, not a street car that I sometimes race at the track. <img border="0" alt="[devil]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_devil.gif" />
Keep us posted on your outcome. Cheers my friend! <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />
I hope everything works out for ya. <img border="0" alt="[angel]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_angel.gif" />
#58-6,000rpm clutch dumps. So far so good. <img border="0" alt="[hail]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_hail.gif" />
If I break anything major.(If i don't go to a bad *** Lenco 4 speed) The plan is to put in a glide, pro tree-transbrake, big fat convert, air shirter and a delay box.(The Works) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_tounge.gif" />
Remember: This is a race car that I drive on the street, not a street car that I sometimes race at the track. <img border="0" alt="[devil]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_devil.gif" />
Keep us posted on your outcome. Cheers my friend! <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />
07-01-2002, 08:58 PM
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Re: I hate six speeds!! </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by 2000 Camaro SS:
<strong>What sort of HP you have? I'm hoping I don't do the same to mine.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Here is a link to Weatherguys dyno graph. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
http://community.webshots.com/photo/...8559mNHJYVPyfL
<strong>What sort of HP you have? I'm hoping I don't do the same to mine.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Here is a link to Weatherguys dyno graph. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
http://community.webshots.com/photo/...8559mNHJYVPyfL
07-01-2002, 09:01 PM
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Re: I hate six speeds!! </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by 2000 Camaro SS:
<strong>What sort of HP you have? I'm hoping I don't do the same to mine.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">495 (SAE) RWHP. Link above is pretty close to what it is now, but was with different collectors. Given how hot and sticky it was last night, probably only about 480-85 actual RWHP.
Coach - that sounds like a pretty radical setup you are considering. But I see in other posts that you have run dragsters before, so not too much for you . . .
<small>[ July 01, 2002, 09:02 PM: Message edited by: WeatherGuy ]</small>
<strong>What sort of HP you have? I'm hoping I don't do the same to mine.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">495 (SAE) RWHP. Link above is pretty close to what it is now, but was with different collectors. Given how hot and sticky it was last night, probably only about 480-85 actual RWHP.
Coach - that sounds like a pretty radical setup you are considering. But I see in other posts that you have run dragsters before, so not too much for you . . .
<small>[ July 01, 2002, 09:02 PM: Message edited by: WeatherGuy ]</small>
07-01-2002, 10:33 PM
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Re: I hate six speeds!! Why are you going with the 200-4R insted of a turbo 350 or 400 and what stall are u going to through in there that would be sweet if you through some juice on there im sure with the auto you will be in the low 10's maybe even 9's.
Jimmy <img border="0" alt="[Camaro]" title="" src="graemlins/camaro.gif" />
<small>[ July 01, 2002, 10:36 PM: Message edited by: Jimmy98Z ]</small>
Jimmy <img border="0" alt="[Camaro]" title="" src="graemlins/camaro.gif" />
<small>[ July 01, 2002, 10:36 PM: Message edited by: Jimmy98Z ]</small>
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07-01-2002, 10:51 PM
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Re: I hate six speeds!! </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Jimmy98Z:
<strong>Why are you going with the 200-4R insted of a turbo 350 or 400 and what stall are u going to through in there that would be sweet if you through some juice on there im sure with the auto you will be in the low 10's maybe even 9's.
Jimmy <img border="0" alt="[Camaro]" title="" src="graemlins/camaro.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Why a 200-4R? Two reasons: it has an overdrive (still want a good street car), and they can be built bullet-proof. Century is going to build it (and MTI put it in) - some of these are powering low 9 and high 8 Grand Nationals. I could also do a TH350 or 400 with a Gear Vendors overdrive, but I don't know how well that kind of setup would last. The downside to the 200-4R is the $$ involved.
The convertor I am going with is going to be a PY3600E. I should still be able to stall it pretty well N/A given my motor's torque, and it should hold when I spray.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Jsears8:
<strong>What broke on the clutch?
Justin</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The car will be up on the rack tomorrow to find out. It was making a rattling sound before it let go, which I mistook for an exhaust pipe rattling. Definitely not the tranny, shaft, rearend, etc.
<strong>Why are you going with the 200-4R insted of a turbo 350 or 400 and what stall are u going to through in there that would be sweet if you through some juice on there im sure with the auto you will be in the low 10's maybe even 9's.
Jimmy <img border="0" alt="[Camaro]" title="" src="graemlins/camaro.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Why a 200-4R? Two reasons: it has an overdrive (still want a good street car), and they can be built bullet-proof. Century is going to build it (and MTI put it in) - some of these are powering low 9 and high 8 Grand Nationals. I could also do a TH350 or 400 with a Gear Vendors overdrive, but I don't know how well that kind of setup would last. The downside to the 200-4R is the $$ involved.
The convertor I am going with is going to be a PY3600E. I should still be able to stall it pretty well N/A given my motor's torque, and it should hold when I spray.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Jsears8:
<strong>What broke on the clutch?
Justin</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The car will be up on the rack tomorrow to find out. It was making a rattling sound before it let go, which I mistook for an exhaust pipe rattling. Definitely not the tranny, shaft, rearend, etc.
07-01-2002, 11:55 PM
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Re: I hate six speeds!! noo don't convert to the dark side! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
you ain't drivin' unless you're shiftin'
<img border="0" alt="[Camaro]" title="" src="graemlins/camaro.gif" />
<small>[ July 02, 2002, 11:42 AM: Message edited by: Onyx LS1 ]</small>
you ain't drivin' unless you're shiftin'
<img border="0" alt="[Camaro]" title="" src="graemlins/camaro.gif" />
<small>[ July 02, 2002, 11:42 AM: Message edited by: Onyx LS1 ]</small>
07-02-2002, 05:53 AM
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Re: I hate six speeds!! Sorry to hear that Greg, but at least you are fixing it right. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> Welcome to converterville!! <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />
PS that dyno graph looks familiar. <img border="0" alt="[jester]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_jest.gif" />
PS that dyno graph looks familiar. <img border="0" alt="[jester]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_jest.gif" />
07-02-2002, 09:33 AM
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Re: I hate six speeds!! Your gonna be real happy with century transmissions. They built me a 4l60e 3 yrs ago <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> when i did heads and cam on my impala and since then a year and a half ago i put in the stroker and i have over 50 1/4 mile passes on slicks with that trans. Top notch guys and work! Have you been by there shop? Its huge. But about 3 months ago (before the vette) i was gonna have Century do the exzact swap your having done. Good luck and have fun spraying the gas through the gears no window switch for u!!!
<img border="0" alt="[hail]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_hail.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[hail]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_hail.gif" /> CENTURY TRANSMISSIONS <img border="0" alt="[hail]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_hail.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[hail]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_hail.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />
<small>[ July 02, 2002, 09:34 AM: Message edited by: Mike TexaSS ]</small>
<img border="0" alt="[hail]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_hail.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[hail]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_hail.gif" /> CENTURY TRANSMISSIONS <img border="0" alt="[hail]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_hail.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[hail]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_hail.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />
<small>[ July 02, 2002, 09:34 AM: Message edited by: Mike TexaSS ]</small>
07-02-2002, 03:31 PM
#14
Re: I hate six speeds!! Don't mess around or kid yourself Greg, get a TH350 with a transbrake and manual shifter. This isn't your daily driver anymore, better to invest in longterm durability at that power (and future power) level.
Overdrive? For what? Once you get rid of the 6-speed and put a loose converter tranny in, its not really as streetable anymore anyways.
When I grenade the T56, I'll most likely do a TH350 since I'll only be using the car for cruise nights and racing anyways. With the trailer, I always have the option to haul it long distances <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
Tony
Overdrive? For what? Once you get rid of the 6-speed and put a loose converter tranny in, its not really as streetable anymore anyways.
When I grenade the T56, I'll most likely do a TH350 since I'll only be using the car for cruise nights and racing anyways. With the trailer, I always have the option to haul it long distances <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
Tony
07-02-2002, 08:20 PM
#16
Re: I hate six speeds!! </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Nine Ball:
<strong>Overdrive? For what? Once you get rid of the 6-speed and put a loose converter tranny in, its not really as streetable anymore anyways.
Tony</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">YOU BIG WEENIE! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_tounge.gif" /> A 3600 will be VERY streetable, especially behind a monster of a motor like he has. I run around with a 4,400 stall with no problems. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> I agree that Century Transmissions can build you a nice 200-4R. I know of a few that are running their trannies, and one of them is a TT LS1. It will be your best shot, IMO, of getting a 200-4R to live w/ your power; Mike Kurtz is a big Buick GN guy, and he's been building the 200-4R for quite a while. I'm very interested to see how much power you'll be able to push through it. It will give you every bit of the streetability you're wanting to keep, and you you'll be able to manually shift w/ out worrying about the PCM. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> The thought has crossed my mind more than once when my 4L60E dies, considering what I have in store for the SS down the road. <img border="0" alt="[Burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />
Good luck with your new setup. You're going to LOVE it, especially after you collect your first 10-second timeslip with the A4 installed.
<small>[ July 02, 2002, 08:22 PM: Message edited by: Trevor D ]</small>
<strong>Overdrive? For what? Once you get rid of the 6-speed and put a loose converter tranny in, its not really as streetable anymore anyways.
Tony</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">YOU BIG WEENIE! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_tounge.gif" /> A 3600 will be VERY streetable, especially behind a monster of a motor like he has. I run around with a 4,400 stall with no problems. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> I agree that Century Transmissions can build you a nice 200-4R. I know of a few that are running their trannies, and one of them is a TT LS1. It will be your best shot, IMO, of getting a 200-4R to live w/ your power; Mike Kurtz is a big Buick GN guy, and he's been building the 200-4R for quite a while. I'm very interested to see how much power you'll be able to push through it. It will give you every bit of the streetability you're wanting to keep, and you you'll be able to manually shift w/ out worrying about the PCM. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> The thought has crossed my mind more than once when my 4L60E dies, considering what I have in store for the SS down the road. <img border="0" alt="[Burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />
Good luck with your new setup. You're going to LOVE it, especially after you collect your first 10-second timeslip with the A4 installed.
<small>[ July 02, 2002, 08:22 PM: Message edited by: Trevor D ]</small>
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07-02-2002, 08:38 PM
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Re: I hate six speeds!! Man I'm putting some highway miles on my new th350.
Man you definately notice not having the overdrive! Glad I had the wheel well massaged to take some bigger meat!
Man you definately notice not having the overdrive! Glad I had the wheel well massaged to take some bigger meat!
07-02-2002, 10:13 PM
#18
Re: I hate six speeds!! Weatherguy -
I think you're making a very good choice. You'll have overdrive for any highway driving you may do, and the 2004r (especially a Mike Kurtz built one) will be virtualy bullet-proof.
Like you said, they hold up great in many 9 sec. Turbo Buicks which, by the way, are cranking out some serious torque!
Ross
I think you're making a very good choice. You'll have overdrive for any highway driving you may do, and the 2004r (especially a Mike Kurtz built one) will be virtualy bullet-proof.
Like you said, they hold up great in many 9 sec. Turbo Buicks which, by the way, are cranking out some serious torque!
Ross
07-02-2002, 10:17 PM
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Re: I hate six speeds!! </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Nine Ball:
<strong>Don't mess around or kid yourself Greg, get a TH350 with a transbrake and manual shifter. This isn't your daily driver anymore, better to invest in longterm durability at that power (and future power) level.
Overdrive? For what? Once you get rid of the 6-speed and put a loose converter tranny in, its not really as streetable anymore anyways.
When I grenade the T56, I'll most likely do a TH350 since I'll only be using the car for cruise nights and racing anyways. With the trailer, I always have the option to haul it long distances <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
Tony</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Tony, I think this is going to be the first time I can recall disagreeing with you. The checking I've done says that a built 200-4R is about as good a tranny as I can get for what I am looking for. The key is to get one that is built right, and almost everyone is swearing by Century. Patrick (at MTI, along with others there) gave me a strong endorsement of it, and told me that Century is really completely redoing the transmission, including billet ODs. The built trannies are probably good to about 900 ft-lbs or so.
Is a built TH350 (or even more a TH400) stronger? Yes. But I do want the OD, because to me the fun is having a *fast* car that still has good street manners. And a good torque convertor with lockup should be fairly streetable. I think I would go apeshit turning 3500 RPMs at 70 MPH, even just on weekend cruises
200-4Rs do not like transbrakes from what I understand, so that would be something I would have to give up. Guess it is going to be footbrake or flash stall.
Incidentally, breaking a McLeod twin has convinced me that nothing is bullet-proof, no matter what is claimed. Wonder what I will be breaking next . . . .
<strong>Don't mess around or kid yourself Greg, get a TH350 with a transbrake and manual shifter. This isn't your daily driver anymore, better to invest in longterm durability at that power (and future power) level.
Overdrive? For what? Once you get rid of the 6-speed and put a loose converter tranny in, its not really as streetable anymore anyways.
When I grenade the T56, I'll most likely do a TH350 since I'll only be using the car for cruise nights and racing anyways. With the trailer, I always have the option to haul it long distances <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
Tony</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Tony, I think this is going to be the first time I can recall disagreeing with you. The checking I've done says that a built 200-4R is about as good a tranny as I can get for what I am looking for. The key is to get one that is built right, and almost everyone is swearing by Century. Patrick (at MTI, along with others there) gave me a strong endorsement of it, and told me that Century is really completely redoing the transmission, including billet ODs. The built trannies are probably good to about 900 ft-lbs or so.
Is a built TH350 (or even more a TH400) stronger? Yes. But I do want the OD, because to me the fun is having a *fast* car that still has good street manners. And a good torque convertor with lockup should be fairly streetable. I think I would go apeshit turning 3500 RPMs at 70 MPH, even just on weekend cruises
200-4Rs do not like transbrakes from what I understand, so that would be something I would have to give up. Guess it is going to be footbrake or flash stall.
Incidentally, breaking a McLeod twin has convinced me that nothing is bullet-proof, no matter what is claimed. Wonder what I will be breaking next . . . .
07-02-2002, 10:20 PM
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Re: I hate six speeds!! </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by 1dirtyZ:
<strong>are you selling the bellhousing???
i pm'ed you if you're intrested.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Going to be selling the whole T56 and carbon fiber driveshaft. The transmission is actually in good shape - no real synchro problems. Just think - it broke a McLeod twin <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
<strong>are you selling the bellhousing???
i pm'ed you if you're intrested.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Going to be selling the whole T56 and carbon fiber driveshaft. The transmission is actually in good shape - no real synchro problems. Just think - it broke a McLeod twin <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />