GrannySShifting

iTrader: (10)

LS1 block, or anything a LS1 style head will bolt up to. When does it become an aftermarket/not stock block class?

So should a Motown block and 6.0 liter block be in the same catagory?

What about the few C5R guys, guess they shoudl be up against anything else, longs it got a GM part number. Does the DRCE have one? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />

http://www.fbodycentral.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6798

sited12

Yeah the DRCE has a part number. Can achually order it from most dealers i believe.

Joe Overton

bowtie rocket block has a part number to...I think this a good question also..good post I'd like to see the replys to this..

J-Rod

The DRCE, Rocket Block, Little M, etc... are all 1st gen SBC. You can buy one, but you can't use it in an Ls1 application. As for a 6.0L block or a C5R block, I have no issue with using either one and claiming any title... Its still a GenIII sbc...

<small>[ February 15, 2003, 09:24 PM: Message edited by: J-Rod ]</small>

Joe Overton

so what your saying you can stick a similiar engine in even though it isnt a ls1 and claim it is?... Something is wrong with this picture..

GrannySShifting

iTrader: (10)

Maybe Im asking what shoudl be considered fastest LS1 per se, but what would qualify as fastest stock block car? Something with a LT1 or LS1 block would only apply in my book, not the iron LS1 style stuff, or C5R stuff.

Rpm2800

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by GrannySShifting:
<strong> LS1 block, or anything a LS1 style head will bolt up to. When does it become an aftermarket/not stock block class?

So should a Motown block and 6.0 liter block be in the same catagory?

What about the few C5R guys, guess they shoudl be up against anything else, longs it got a GM part number. Does the DRCE have one? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />

http://www.fbodycentral.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6798 </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Motown and DRCE should not even be considered the same. They are "conventional" SBC, or gen 1 type stuff. The parts would not even bolt up. Ls1 heads would not even go on those blocks, so they should not even be considered.


Im not sure about c5 blocks, and 6 liter blocks. Even though they don't come stock in fbodies, I think they are still in the ls1 family.

(Kinda like some caprices that came with a small lt1. It was only in 2xx bubic inch range , but I think it was still considered an lt1 even though it was not a 350 lt1 like the vettes and fbodies).

Again, I'm not sure if the c5 , and 6 liter would be Ok or not for stock class. Some might say yes, and some might say no.

But the DRCE and Motown are NOT ls1's period.

<small>[ February 15, 2003, 11:40 PM: Message edited by: Rpm2800 ]</small>

Joe Overton

Rpm, I think he is referring to that the lt1 is in the gen 1 family ( all bottom end parts bolt in and will work from even a 70 lt1 for ex. thats why motown etc. were brought up...reverse cooling is hump but can be solved... so if ls1 can switch to a "like" configuration then the same should hold true for lt1 guys switching to "like" configurations.. dont get me wrong to me its all together different totally when you switch or vary away from whats factory... but I think this is something that is trivial in a sense, when it comes to these events coming up all over the country.. 6.0 blocks nor c5r were dubbed ls1 by gm...people themselves have dubbed them that... so are they ls1's any longer? ...or are they just like a lt1 guy switching to a 400 s/b for ex.? to me its one in the same.

sited12

The thing i see is you cant go faster with the C5R block or the 6.0. They are just for strength. So all in all whats wrong with building a motor that can hold a little more over time. I say let them be considered LS1s. Everyone is going faster with the aluminum blocks anyways. Oh and i thought the DRCE was a big block not a small block.

Rpm2800

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Joe Overton:
<strong> Rpm, I think he is referring to that the lt1 is in the gen 1 family ( all bottom end parts bolt in and will work from even a 70 lt1 for ex. thats why motown etc. were brought up...reverse cooling is hump but can be solved... so if ls1 can switch to a "like" configuration then the same should hold true for lt1 guys switching to "like" configurations.. dont get me wrong to me its all together different totally when you switch or vary away from whats factory... but I think this is something that is trivial in a sense, when it comes to these events coming up all over the country.. 6.0 blocks nor c5r were dubbed ls1 by gm...people themselves have dubbed them that... so are they ls1's any longer? ...or are they just like a lt1 guy switching to a 400 s/b for ex.? to me its one in the same. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I agree that the lt1 parts work with "conventional" sbc. Some off the lower end parts will go in with no mods, and some like the heads from a conventional sbc have to be changed over to reverse cool.(which is not that difficult).

But I think when you change the block, you are basically changing the whole engine.

I have an lt1 also, and putting a bow tie block in it and putting lt1 heads on it is not an lt1 too me.

Now putting conventional heads on an lt1 block may be. I don't run in classes however so i don't care. But i guess some do.

In MY OPINION , if you change the block , you have changed the engine.

An lt1 with conventional trick flow sbc heads is still an lt1 too me. It may not fit in certain stock classes though but again , i personally don't care .

But a bow tie or DRCE block with lt heads, is not an lt1 . It's a "conventional" sbc with lt1 heads..

Rpm2800

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">As far as Ls1's go , I don't really now what to say about 6 liter , and c5r blocks.


But some of the issues should probably not even be debated, because ls1 parts are so different that they would not even bolt up with 18,15,14 degree, 12 degree, canted, splayed vavle , DRCE stuff if you wanted to.

sited12

The 6.0 may be stronger but it weighs more. Also ARE went 8s with the stock aluminum block GM made. Judson also goes 9s with his GM LS1 along with BeaSSt. The C5R end up being able to go faster but we havent seen that yet because we are so poor. I know the strength helps you throw more at the motor to go faster but it hasnt been that way yet to go faster. So theoretically strength should go faster but it hasnt been that way so far.

sited12

I thought the LT1 was a reverse flow motor so there would be a difference between it and the Gen 1 small blocks

Joe Overton

reverse cooling is nothing ..lt1 is still based off standard s/b chevy thus "like " any pre -93 engine before... which is the point here, if its good for one it should be the other..but I guarantee if I took a 400 s/b put some "like" lt1 heads on it and knocked down a number I'd be the outcast..and wouldnt be accepted as a lt1...

Chuck

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by sited12:
<strong> The 6.0 may be stronger but it weighs more. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">here we go..finally someone brought up the cid/strength/ weight question.....
given your premise...why then is their no consideration given to larger cid in ratio to the race weight of the car..."if racer a weighs 3200lbs but has 100 more cid's than racer b with a 346 that weighs 3000lbs"
this is a good conversation and we need to discuss this more

sited12

Im just saying right now on paper it looks like the 6.0 and C5R should go faster. But the people who are running the fastest are using the regular aluminum LS1 block. Im sure once we have more people running the C5R block my opinion on this will change though. The real question i have to ask is what about the C5R heads. Buts thats a totally different topic. The block doesnt really add power but the heads and sheet metal intake are where the extra power is hidding from all of us poor ls1 hot rodders.

Chuck

and even in your answer you hit upon the larger topic that i think was intended by this post...heads, block, and even my question about race weight...what are the parameters/ At what point do we start nailing down what is what and what is fair.Up until now, the definition of LS1 and LT1 has been taken for granted and/or based on the users point of view.
Not really disagreeing with your opinion, but just trying to point out that there is too much room for interpretation here as the technology increases and our cars get faster. I would really like to see the moderators jump in here and lets get some intelligent conversation going.

Joe Overton

but as stated before block integrity will limit the gains obtainable... so block changing is a factor and trust me there is power in a bottom end..just 1/4" of stroke or more compression does alot.and with the aluminum block tainted with the possibility of pulling the inserts out the block on a high boost or big n20 application I can see why people switch,,,Same thing Lt1 faced years ago and still does (block integrity) so back to topic at hand switching block other than factory does no longer make it a ls1 or lt1 for that matter am I correct here? mighty obvious this thread or the other are not being answered by the powers that be..If this thread is rocking boats then so be it..But some clarification is needed here IMHO....

sited12

I think this is a great topic because we have never been forced to answer this before. There isnt a race class that forces us to accept what they feel is still an LS1 we just kind of went along with what the heads would bolt to.

Joe Overton

sited: you just double talked big time on that response..you say they are stronger, but yet not faster..hp capability and block integrity or construction go hand in hand...check your ET board again, I believe your mistaken,,,do you even know whats capable ci. wise of a c5r block? try 450+ ci. far from what a "ls1" can be stretched to...call it a ls1 if you want, but its technically incorrect. I'm sure these guys running a conventional s/b in the f-body's soon will be claiming they still have a lt1, if ls1's can vary to other "like" build-ups,then they will figure, what is good for the goose is good for the gander..wouldnt take more than a nice 18 degree engine and plumb lines from water pump to heads and it would be "like " configured to a lt1 ..seems this thread is being avoided for some odd reason,but this a issue that should be addressed in my opinion..ecspecially with the way the upcoming events are dictated..