My new dyno pulls LS2 with all the fixins and a 2 stage
07-18-2009, 10:38 PM
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My new dyno pulls LS2 with all the fixins and a 2 stage Hey Guys I almost never post in here but this has been a long time project. The initial goal of the project was a 6L 500RWHP motor and 700RWHP on 3 stgs Best overall TQ and driveability. Minimal $$ maximum HP. Versatility for street and road course but with the spray hyabusa like acceleration straight line.
The car is a 99FRC with a forged LS2 stk cubes, ETP 225s 11.7:1, Our Ported FAST 92mm, Our Ported LS2 TB, VR CAI, 236/240 111 Cam, meziere EWP, UD pulley, Dynatech 1.75 headers, High flow cats, Borla stingers, Centerforce DFX steel FW, 3.90 gears, Stk ls6 wheels, kumho tires. Tuned by Jeremy Formato, me. The 2 stages (the car has 3 stgs WAIT FOR FUTURE #s!! ) of DRY Nitrous are a custom design of Alan Jones (nitrous moderator on LS1tech) and a bit of our own twist to dial in traction for roll racing. Need a little more tire! The car is on pump gas and has about 1900 miles and is still on Rotella 15-50 break in oil.
I listed all of the important parts that have a large baring on the power including the oil, clutch, wheels because they each make a significant difference in power. So all things considered for 100degF We were very happy. We have had numerous customers gain 15RWHP by going to the thinner oil after break in. I am looking forward to it in a few hundred miles!
This is all one tune with dry nitrous retard. One tune controls the motor for max power and it also controls the nitrous enrichment and timing retard. Alan Jones and I developed a method to control large dry nitrous shots in late '03 with one tune all on pump gas. We just ran a guy that runs 10.8 @ 126 and beat him on the motor from a roll and with the spray it feels like adding about 7psi of centrifugal boost on top of it!! As you can see the first stg comes on at 4200rpm and the second at 5K rpm.
The pulls were in STD rating but SAE would have been about 12-14RWHP lower, but one must consider the air temp of 100deg. IF it were about 80 deg we would be right back there at the same figures.
Run 4 is motor
Run 9 is 1st stage N20 @ 4200rpm
Run 11 is 1st and 2nd stg of N20 @4.2K and 5K
The car is a 99FRC with a forged LS2 stk cubes, ETP 225s 11.7:1, Our Ported FAST 92mm, Our Ported LS2 TB, VR CAI, 236/240 111 Cam, meziere EWP, UD pulley, Dynatech 1.75 headers, High flow cats, Borla stingers, Centerforce DFX steel FW, 3.90 gears, Stk ls6 wheels, kumho tires. Tuned by Jeremy Formato, me. The 2 stages (the car has 3 stgs WAIT FOR FUTURE #s!! ) of DRY Nitrous are a custom design of Alan Jones (nitrous moderator on LS1tech) and a bit of our own twist to dial in traction for roll racing. Need a little more tire! The car is on pump gas and has about 1900 miles and is still on Rotella 15-50 break in oil.
I listed all of the important parts that have a large baring on the power including the oil, clutch, wheels because they each make a significant difference in power. So all things considered for 100degF We were very happy. We have had numerous customers gain 15RWHP by going to the thinner oil after break in. I am looking forward to it in a few hundred miles!
This is all one tune with dry nitrous retard. One tune controls the motor for max power and it also controls the nitrous enrichment and timing retard. Alan Jones and I developed a method to control large dry nitrous shots in late '03 with one tune all on pump gas. We just ran a guy that runs 10.8 @ 126 and beat him on the motor from a roll and with the spray it feels like adding about 7psi of centrifugal boost on top of it!! As you can see the first stg comes on at 4200rpm and the second at 5K rpm.
The pulls were in STD rating but SAE would have been about 12-14RWHP lower, but one must consider the air temp of 100deg. IF it were about 80 deg we would be right back there at the same figures.
Run 4 is motor
Run 9 is 1st stage N20 @ 4200rpm
Run 11 is 1st and 2nd stg of N20 @4.2K and 5K
07-18-2009, 11:58 PM
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Good numbers, but why not do a big wet shot? I had a stock bottom end LS2 in an fbody with ported uncut 243 castings, a LS6 intake, stock 78mm TB, hooker 1 3/4 headers and stock water pump and put down 476 rwhp. Then had a 200 (at the tires) single wet kit on top of it. I understand you are looing for traction but why a dry kit and sacrifice all of the torque? That is such a huge advantage. Just roll with a set of 315/18 drag radials or 17 inch et streets when going to race. From a roll my car hooked on both, and it was a junky f-body lol. I always wanted to do all the newer stuff like a fast 90/90, 1 7/8 kooks, EWP, etc to get more power but ended up selling it.
07-19-2009, 08:29 AM
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Very interesting. Just curious considering the 2 stage and ultimately a 3 stage N2o setup why you went with 1 3/4 headers. Seems like 1 7/8 or 1 7/8 stepped to 2 inch would've been more inline with that much nitrous.
Either way I am very impressed !! Great job to everyone involved.
Either way I am very impressed !! Great job to everyone involved.
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07-19-2009, 11:47 PM
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Good numbers, but why not do a big wet shot? I had a stock bottom end LS2 in an fbody with ported uncut 243 castings, a LS6 intake, stock 78mm TB, hooker 1 3/4 headers and stock water pump and put down 476 rwhp. Then had a 200 (at the tires) single wet kit on top of it. I understand you are looing for traction but why a dry kit and sacrifice all of the torque? That is such a huge advantage. Just roll with a set of 315/18 drag radials or 17 inch et streets when going to race. From a roll my car hooked on both, and it was a junky f-body lol. I always wanted to do all the newer stuff like a fast 90/90, 1 7/8 kooks, EWP, etc to get more power but ended up selling it.
And as for just doing a big wet shot vs stages....its all about control. A motor that makes say 500 rwhp on motor and then sprays a 200 shot at 3000 rpm will probably make 250-300 additional rwtq in the lower rpms and 700 rwhp in the upper rpm ranges. if you take that same 200 shot and divide it up into two stages of 100 each...one coming on at 3000 rpm and the other coming on at 5000...you will still make the exact same peak hp numbers above 5000 rpm but the tq spikes in the lower rpm will be a bit more even keeled. Its much easier to tune the dual stage with a flatter tq curve from 3000-7000 rpm that to have a massive tq spike at 3000 and have it taper off rapidly with rpm. Peak tq is where you need to pull the most timing and where the most octane is required. So having an inverse tq curve vs rpm as with a large single stage is really not ideal and potentially leaving alot on the table.
A properly designed dual stage compared to a single stage 200 shot will alow you to spray MORE total hp...say a 270 total....be easier and safer to tune...result in more HP and be much faster as well as more reliable.
07-20-2009, 06:47 AM
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You realize there is no difference in Tq between wet and dry right?
And as for just doing a big wet shot vs stages....its all about control. A motor that makes say 500 rwhp on motor and then sprays a 200 shot at 3000 rpm will probably make 250-300 additional rwtq in the lower rpms and 700 rwhp in the upper rpm ranges. if you take that same 200 shot and divide it up into two stages of 100 each...one coming on at 3000 rpm and the other coming on at 5000...you will still make the exact same peak hp numbers above 5000 rpm but the tq spikes in the lower rpm will be a bit more even keeled. Its much easier to tune the dual stage with a flatter tq curve from 3000-7000 rpm that to have a massive tq spike at 3000 and have it taper off rapidly with rpm. Peak tq is where you need to pull the most timing and where the most octane is required. So having an inverse tq curve vs rpm as with a large single stage is really not ideal and potentially leaving alot on the table.
A properly designed dual stage compared to a single stage 200 shot will alow you to spray MORE total hp...say a 270 total....be easier and safer to tune...result in more HP and be much faster as well as more reliable.
And as for just doing a big wet shot vs stages....its all about control. A motor that makes say 500 rwhp on motor and then sprays a 200 shot at 3000 rpm will probably make 250-300 additional rwtq in the lower rpms and 700 rwhp in the upper rpm ranges. if you take that same 200 shot and divide it up into two stages of 100 each...one coming on at 3000 rpm and the other coming on at 5000...you will still make the exact same peak hp numbers above 5000 rpm but the tq spikes in the lower rpm will be a bit more even keeled. Its much easier to tune the dual stage with a flatter tq curve from 3000-7000 rpm that to have a massive tq spike at 3000 and have it taper off rapidly with rpm. Peak tq is where you need to pull the most timing and where the most octane is required. So having an inverse tq curve vs rpm as with a large single stage is really not ideal and potentially leaving alot on the table.
A properly designed dual stage compared to a single stage 200 shot will alow you to spray MORE total hp...say a 270 total....be easier and safer to tune...result in more HP and be much faster as well as more reliable.
Very well put, and informative response. I'd love run a 2 stage that later becomes a 3 stage setup like you are running. Could you imagine the fun you'd have on the street ?? Especially in a c5 with a 6060 conversion (Hint/Hint)
Thanks for taking the time explain the logic between 1 wet shot, and multiple stages of dry shots.
07-20-2009, 07:44 AM
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Nitrous adds about the same amount of hp at any rpm. The lower the rpm you spray the more torque it is going to add. Spray a 200hp shot at 2500rpms it will add 450ftlbs of torque, if the motor stay together.
07-20-2009, 11:49 AM
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You realize there is no difference in Tq between wet and dry right?
And as for just doing a big wet shot vs stages....its all about control. A motor that makes say 500 rwhp on motor and then sprays a 200 shot at 3000 rpm will probably make 250-300 additional rwtq in the lower rpms and 700 rwhp in the upper rpm ranges. if you take that same 200 shot and divide it up into two stages of 100 each...one coming on at 3000 rpm and the other coming on at 5000...you will still make the exact same peak hp numbers above 5000 rpm but the tq spikes in the lower rpm will be a bit more even keeled. Its much easier to tune the dual stage with a flatter tq curve from 3000-7000 rpm that to have a massive tq spike at 3000 and have it taper off rapidly with rpm. Peak tq is where you need to pull the most timing and where the most octane is required. So having an inverse tq curve vs rpm as with a large single stage is really not ideal and potentially leaving alot on the table.
A properly designed dual stage compared to a single stage 200 shot will alow you to spray MORE total hp...say a 270 total....be easier and safer to tune...result in more HP and be much faster as well as more reliable.
And as for just doing a big wet shot vs stages....its all about control. A motor that makes say 500 rwhp on motor and then sprays a 200 shot at 3000 rpm will probably make 250-300 additional rwtq in the lower rpms and 700 rwhp in the upper rpm ranges. if you take that same 200 shot and divide it up into two stages of 100 each...one coming on at 3000 rpm and the other coming on at 5000...you will still make the exact same peak hp numbers above 5000 rpm but the tq spikes in the lower rpm will be a bit more even keeled. Its much easier to tune the dual stage with a flatter tq curve from 3000-7000 rpm that to have a massive tq spike at 3000 and have it taper off rapidly with rpm. Peak tq is where you need to pull the most timing and where the most octane is required. So having an inverse tq curve vs rpm as with a large single stage is really not ideal and potentially leaving alot on the table.
A properly designed dual stage compared to a single stage 200 shot will alow you to spray MORE total hp...say a 270 total....be easier and safer to tune...result in more HP and be much faster as well as more reliable.
I agree that bringing it in softer is much safer, but as far as tuning goes I don't think that a multiple stage dry shot is easier to tune than a single stage wet kit. Single stage wet kit = tune on motor, pull needed timing for nitrous, and tune the car on the gas with the jetting (or FP depending on the setup). Can you run more timing down low by bringing in the nitrous easier, yes, but is that 2 or 3 degrees you pull going to make a difference on motor? No not really. I ran 24 degrees all the way across on my car with the gas.. but then again I had motors laying around to go in lol.
07-20-2009, 09:19 PM
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I'm not sure I agree with a dry shot making the same power as a wet shot, I've had countless nitrous cars on the dyno and dry shot never performed AS well. A LOT of my races were won by the inverse tq curve and being able to take higher hp cars from the hit, especially roll racing. I think dry kits are great for race cars etc running a direct port dry system and big stuff etc management, or if you trying to hide the kit. I just wouldn't bother unless going BIG as in 300 etc. and wanting to leave softer to avoid blowing the tires off. (which seems to be his concern, and a dry kit works well for that) Hell we even debated on going with a dry system on powells camaro a long time ago.
I agree that bringing it in softer is much safer, but as far as tuning goes I don't think that a multiple stage dry shot is easier to tune than a single stage wet kit. Single stage wet kit = tune on motor, pull needed timing for nitrous, and tune the car on the gas with the jetting (or FP depending on the setup). Can you run more timing down low by bringing in the nitrous easier, yes, but is that 2 or 3 degrees you pull going to make a difference on motor? No not really. I ran 24 degrees all the way across on my car with the gas.. but then again I had motors laying around to go in lol.
I agree that bringing it in softer is much safer, but as far as tuning goes I don't think that a multiple stage dry shot is easier to tune than a single stage wet kit. Single stage wet kit = tune on motor, pull needed timing for nitrous, and tune the car on the gas with the jetting (or FP depending on the setup). Can you run more timing down low by bringing in the nitrous easier, yes, but is that 2 or 3 degrees you pull going to make a difference on motor? No not really. I ran 24 degrees all the way across on my car with the gas.. but then again I had motors laying around to go in lol.
I am sure you have run many kits...but have you done back to back testing...using the same kit...same nozzle (but with fuel blocked off and relocated from behind MAF to in front)...same noids....same bottle pressure...same jet on the nitrous side...same tune...and made sure the Af was the same between kits? Anything less than a back to back test would be purely anecdotal.
I have done that several times and the results are always the same. no difference between the two. Heck...really you should just be able to flow the nitrous...and if they flow the same...they should run the same. The only variable is how the fuel is introduced.
I think many times the lack of performance from the dry kits is a poor tune or bad AF since the dry kits are harder to adjust AF.
As for tuning difficulty between a large single stage vs multi stages...its obviously all in how you set it up. But if your goal is to flatten out that tq curve a bit more...it will make things easier IMO. Sure you can just run a huge single stage and pull a TON of timing to cover the entire rpm range and the huge tq peak in lower rpm...but IMO that does leave a bit on the table.
Also...what is needed can vary by what your running as well. A manual street car trying to make as much HP as possible on the stock bottom end safely will probably have a different requirement than a track car with a high spinning motor and glide with a nice big stall. Stages mean different things to those two cars IMO. It seems you can get into trouble a lot quicker with the manual car vs the big stall auto car.
07-21-2009, 12:13 PM
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Is it possible wet kits dont lose #7 cylinder as often? Cuz the fuel hits the back of the intake with the air and nitrous? Could that be a possible advantage of wet kits?
07-27-2009, 10:43 AM
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Ladies and Gentlemen- Alan Jones (383LQ4SS) Nitrous GURU!!! WOOOT!!!
Gator- One of these days you need to see the shop and give me a crack at trying to help you out. BTW I think I gave you a ride in a combo about 4 years ago when it made 600rwhp.
AL- we have some R&D to do give me a call.
Thank you guys.
Gator- One of these days you need to see the shop and give me a crack at trying to help you out. BTW I think I gave you a ride in a combo about 4 years ago when it made 600rwhp.
AL- we have some R&D to do give me a call.
Thank you guys.
