416 -- TEA TFS 225/Tick Custom Cam 474whp/454wtq - Now What??
07-26-2014, 02:24 PM
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416 -- TEA TFS 225/Tick Custom Cam 474whp/454wtq - Now What?? 
1000 miles on motor...M6 car w/4.10's
LS3 416 -- 11.2:1 w/0.045 quench
TEA TFS 225CNC w/nitrous exh port
239/246 -- .624/.595 -- 113+2
Fast 92 (opened to 95mm and port matched)
95mm PTM Throttle Body -- 100mm L'Felter MAF -- Fast 36# inj -- Racetronix 255/Hotwire
5/16" -- 0.080 wall -- 7.550" pushrods -- stock rockers w/trunion kit
FLP 1 3/4 Long Tube -- No Cats -- Borla Catback
fresh plugs/wires/filters/oil
Tuned by Sam Miller @ AMP in Arlington. Car tuned great - awesome driveability...would recommend him to anybody.
I'm going to get drunk.
Last edited by 74u; 02-28-2015 at 08:52 PM. Reason: updated
07-26-2014, 05:56 PM
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Honestly, it feels very stout on the bottom end. Above 5500 it just doesn't seem as potent as I hoped. Seat of the pants seems to be confirmed by dyno.
Just kind of worried since I spent thousands and currently make 10hp less than my 243 headed oil burner 402 that I "upgraded" from. In all fairness these numbers were on different dyno's though.
The 402 on street tires went 94mph in the eighth, and 119.6mph in the quarter.
The goal for the new motor is 125mph...I'm suddenly not as confident as when I was swiping the credit card.
Just kind of worried since I spent thousands and currently make 10hp less than my 243 headed oil burner 402 that I "upgraded" from. In all fairness these numbers were on different dyno's though.
The 402 on street tires went 94mph in the eighth, and 119.6mph in the quarter.
The goal for the new motor is 125mph...I'm suddenly not as confident as when I was swiping the credit card.
07-26-2014, 06:44 PM
#4
IMHO your headers are a little small for the size of the motor. I think you would gain some power with 1 7/8" headers. Also what size exhaust system are you running? You are still making good power between 5500 and 6500 rpm with peak 6100. It should still be pulling hard at that rpm. The only way to know for sure is to take it to the track and compare.
07-26-2014, 07:20 PM
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I would agree the headers are a bit small, as is the single 3" borla system, and fast 92mm too maybe.
But to be honest if I went and dropped 3k on all that it still probably isn't gonna help me find the 40whp I'm missing. Who knows...I may lose more.
The local 1/4 mile is closed tonight so I'm gonna try to hit the 1/8th mile and hope for a better outcome. Will report back later.
But to be honest if I went and dropped 3k on all that it still probably isn't gonna help me find the 40whp I'm missing. Who knows...I may lose more.
The local 1/4 mile is closed tonight so I'm gonna try to hit the 1/8th mile and hope for a better outcome. Will report back later.
07-26-2014, 07:22 PM
#6
Sorry bro but you should be making at leas 75rwhp and 50 rwtq more than what you are. I would be mad if I made those numbers on a MD with your combo. I actually made those exact numbers with my 383 from WAAAAY back on a MD. Those heads are a hair small but not limiting by any means and the cam is a hair small also but very well matched to your heads and exhaust. The headers could be bigger and I am assuming that you have an F body so the merge and cat back are critical. I would have gone with more compression but the combo seems to be there. Hopefully it is just dyno's or you hurt something. You can see my 416 below that was built with TFS 235's and a Fast 92 with stock TB seven or eight years ago. If I were you I would get with Martin and figure out what is going on. You are making cam only LS3 numbers. I am sure your tuner messed with the fuel to get the best numbers but the fuel curve doesn't look the best to me. At that small of a scale you really shouldn't see to many variations from 12.6 to 12.8 afr if you are staying on the rich side of safe. Do you still have the non synthetic high ZDDP oil in it? Break in and switching to synthetic after 2,000 miles will net some gains.
Last edited by Pray; 07-26-2014 at 07:28 PM.
07-26-2014, 07:38 PM
#7
IMHO your headers are a little small for the size of the motor. I think you would gain some power with 1 7/8" headers. Also what size exhaust system are you running? You are still making good power between 5500 and 6500 rpm with peak 6100. It should still be pulling hard at that rpm. The only way to know for sure is to take it to the track and compare.
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07-26-2014, 07:42 PM
#8
Sorry bro but you should be making at leas 75rwhp and 50 rwtq more than what you are. I would be mad if I made those numbers on a MD with your combo. I actually made those exact numbers with my 383 from WAAAAY back on a MD. Those heads are a hair small but not limiting by any means and the cam is a hair small also but very well matched to your heads and exhaust. The headers could be bigger and I am assuming that you have an F body so the merge and cat back are critical. I would have gone with more compression but the combo seems to be there. Hopefully it is just dyno's or you hurt something. You can see my 416 below that was built with TFS 235's and a Fast 92 with stock TB seven or eight years ago. If I were you I would get with Martin and figure out what is going on. You are making cam only LS3 numbers. I am sure your tuner messed with the fuel to get the best numbers but the fuel curve doesn't look the best to me. At that small of a scale you really shouldn't see to many variations from 12.6 to 12.8 afr if you are staying on the rich side of safe. Do you still have the non synthetic high ZDDP oil in it? Break in and switching to synthetic after 2,000 miles will net some gains.
07-26-2014, 07:53 PM
#9
"as is the single 3" borla system"
I think we just found the culprit. If you are going to run a single I would be using at least a 3.5" system. I also think a dual 3" would be better yet. As to the headers, many a dyno test has proven the advantages of a 1 7/8" over a 1 3/4". But as of now I think your biggest problem is the single 3".
I think we just found the culprit. If you are going to run a single I would be using at least a 3.5" system. I also think a dual 3" would be better yet. As to the headers, many a dyno test has proven the advantages of a 1 7/8" over a 1 3/4". But as of now I think your biggest problem is the single 3".
07-26-2014, 07:58 PM
#10
"as is the single 3" borla system"
I think we just found the culprit. If you are going to run a single I would be using at least a 3.5" system. I also think a dual 3" would be better yet. As to the headers, many a dyno test has proven the advantages of a 1 7/8" over a 1 3/4". But as of now I think your biggest problem is the single 3".
I think we just found the culprit. If you are going to run a single I would be using at least a 3.5" system. I also think a dual 3" would be better yet. As to the headers, many a dyno test has proven the advantages of a 1 7/8" over a 1 3/4". But as of now I think your biggest problem is the single 3".
07-26-2014, 08:03 PM
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"as is the single 3" borla system"
I think we just found the culprit. If you are going to run a single I would be using at least a 3.5" system. I also think a dual 3" would be better yet. As to the headers, many a dyno test has proven the advantages of a 1 7/8" over a 1 3/4". But as of now I think your biggest problem is the single 3".
I think we just found the culprit. If you are going to run a single I would be using at least a 3.5" system. I also think a dual 3" would be better yet. As to the headers, many a dyno test has proven the advantages of a 1 7/8" over a 1 3/4". But as of now I think your biggest problem is the single 3".
Like you, he suggested if I were going to do the exhaust it should be a dual 3", and maybe 1 7/8 headers. He said he thought this might net 20rwhp at most.
I also planned to use my dry kit on it, but the injectors were maxed n/a (85-95%) from 5200 - 6700. He mentioned when I upgrade the injectors for my dry kit there could be a tiny bit of gain n/a as well.
07-26-2014, 09:11 PM
#12
The tuner, and I discussed that. Keeping in mind he sells parts for a living, he didn't really think there was much to be gained.
Like you, he suggested if I were going to do the exhaust it should be a dual 3", and maybe 1 7/8 headers. He said he thought this might net 20rwhp at most.
I also planned to use my dry kit on it, but the injectors were maxed n/a (85-95%) from 5200 - 6700. He mentioned when I upgrade the injectors for my dry kit there could be a tiny bit of gain n/a as well.
Like you, he suggested if I were going to do the exhaust it should be a dual 3", and maybe 1 7/8 headers. He said he thought this might net 20rwhp at most.
I also planned to use my dry kit on it, but the injectors were maxed n/a (85-95%) from 5200 - 6700. He mentioned when I upgrade the injectors for my dry kit there could be a tiny bit of gain n/a as well.
your tuner sound like he is a straight up person and isnt trying to get you sold on all the gimmicks... sounds like someone i'd do business with
07-27-2014, 12:24 AM
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Well, I hit the local 1/8th mile...not really a good test as there was around 10,000 fellow hillbillies out there and I only got two passes.
Car hooked fine off the line launching at idle on the street tires 2.0x short on both passes, but spun HARD when I hit second to the point I had to lift both passes....whopping 92mph.
Two mph slower than it use to be but much worse DA and traction.
The more I beat on it the more the car feels pretty fast...just haven't been able to prove it yet. I will say this though...the car isn't going to deliver my 125mph goal...unless it can back half 30+mph...not likely
Car hooked fine off the line launching at idle on the street tires 2.0x short on both passes, but spun HARD when I hit second to the point I had to lift both passes....whopping 92mph.
Two mph slower than it use to be but much worse DA and traction.
The more I beat on it the more the car feels pretty fast...just haven't been able to prove it yet. I will say this though...the car isn't going to deliver my 125mph goal...unless it can back half 30+mph...not likely
Last edited by 74u; 07-27-2014 at 10:08 AM.
07-27-2014, 12:55 AM
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To make top power a number of parts need to be swapped, there's to much bottle neck everywhere as was with the previous motor, spec similar results till you allow the breathing to flow, both intake and exhaust are bottle necks on these many CI.
I'm assuming the new motor got it's own tune and OP not using previous engine tune.
Here what I would do different;
1 1/8 inch primaries long tube and dual 3" exhaust with X pipe.
102/102 MM intake and throttle bodies.
Tune.
Improve you traction.
You should be where you originally intended.
I'm assuming the new motor got it's own tune and OP not using previous engine tune.
Here what I would do different;
1 1/8 inch primaries long tube and dual 3" exhaust with X pipe.
102/102 MM intake and throttle bodies.
Tune.
Improve you traction.
You should be where you originally intended.
07-27-2014, 01:14 AM
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To make top power a number of parts need to be swapped, there's to much bottle neck everywhere as was with the previous motor, spec similar results till you allow the breathing to flow, both intake and exhaust are bottle necks on these many CI.
I'm assuming the new motor got it's own tune and OP not using previous engine tune.
Here what I would do different;
1 1/8 inch primaries long tube and dual 3" exhaust with X pipe.
102/102 MM intake and throttle bodies.
Tune.
Improve you traction.
You should be where you originally intended.
I'm assuming the new motor got it's own tune and OP not using previous engine tune.
Here what I would do different;
1 1/8 inch primaries long tube and dual 3" exhaust with X pipe.
102/102 MM intake and throttle bodies.
Tune.
Improve you traction.
You should be where you originally intended.
07-27-2014, 01:37 AM
#17
so many things can happen to get you less than expected... i thought i was going to at least make 540 with my setup, but just barely got to 500... but it runs good and doesnt use a drop of oil so i'm happy... if your happy with the way it feels don't stress over useless numbers... many people just want to see them to pad their ego... i bet you'll run people that make 80-100 more with similar weight and still win if its a strong car
07-27-2014, 07:36 AM
#18
"as i was told by the tuner who started one of the biggest vendors on ls1tech "its just a gimmick to get more buisness from everyone who already has 1 3/4 to spend more money, makes almost no difference unless you make 750-800+ hp and in some cases could hurt average hp"..... so that"
I can tell you that I have built six 402-416's that all made from 520-575rw and over 500rwtq. Five of the six used 1 7/8" headers and all made peak before 6,300. Vengeance and TSP have done extensive header testing and have the same conclusion. 1 7/8" headers only help. There is a vendor on here who charges a ton for their 1 3/4" "long tube" headers that I fell for. They didn't make one more hp over my "cheap" Supermaxx LT's. But switching to 1 7/8" heads showed a good gain on a 383 that only made 490rw.
"i gained zero hp from the 20 mile break in on the dyno, to 3000 miles later and even removing the cats, plus even leaning out the tune 3%... so dont expect it after a break in period,but its possible"
That is funny because I usually gain 10-20rw by about 2,000 miles. I don't break the motor in on a dyno though which I think is the difference here. Any time you go from 50w break in oil to light weight synthetic there is going to be a gain. I usually do the varied driving for 500 then put it on the dyno. Then come back when it is all loosened up and the oil changed. I do like the progressive pulls on the dyno method better though. Seems to seat everything better right off the bat.
Like I said in my first post. I don't think the OP should go out and spend a bunch of money to see a little gain. The combo assembled here is a good one but is no where near making what it should. I would leave the headers and do a really good 3"-4" Flow master merge and run 4" all the way out the back if you can't get a true dual 3" in there. I think your top end is fine for your cam specs. It is a proven fact that a FAST 92 and stock ported 90mm TB can make 575/530rw. Some injector may help if you are truly maxed out. It will run hard on the bottle for sure. I wouldn't change anything but he header back and some 60lb injectors. Good luck with it. As long as you end up happy in the end is all that matters.
I can tell you that I have built six 402-416's that all made from 520-575rw and over 500rwtq. Five of the six used 1 7/8" headers and all made peak before 6,300. Vengeance and TSP have done extensive header testing and have the same conclusion. 1 7/8" headers only help. There is a vendor on here who charges a ton for their 1 3/4" "long tube" headers that I fell for. They didn't make one more hp over my "cheap" Supermaxx LT's. But switching to 1 7/8" heads showed a good gain on a 383 that only made 490rw.
"i gained zero hp from the 20 mile break in on the dyno, to 3000 miles later and even removing the cats, plus even leaning out the tune 3%... so dont expect it after a break in period,but its possible"
That is funny because I usually gain 10-20rw by about 2,000 miles. I don't break the motor in on a dyno though which I think is the difference here. Any time you go from 50w break in oil to light weight synthetic there is going to be a gain. I usually do the varied driving for 500 then put it on the dyno. Then come back when it is all loosened up and the oil changed. I do like the progressive pulls on the dyno method better though. Seems to seat everything better right off the bat.
Like I said in my first post. I don't think the OP should go out and spend a bunch of money to see a little gain. The combo assembled here is a good one but is no where near making what it should. I would leave the headers and do a really good 3"-4" Flow master merge and run 4" all the way out the back if you can't get a true dual 3" in there. I think your top end is fine for your cam specs. It is a proven fact that a FAST 92 and stock ported 90mm TB can make 575/530rw. Some injector may help if you are truly maxed out. It will run hard on the bottle for sure. I wouldn't change anything but he header back and some 60lb injectors. Good luck with it. As long as you end up happy in the end is all that matters.
07-27-2014, 09:28 PM
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The car is fun to drive, makes great oil pressure and doesn't burn any oil (proud of this since I built the motor) and since tuned seems to be getting excellent gas mileage. I guess I'll have to be happy with it...done wasting money on **** that doesn't deliver. If I want more power I'll get it through Nitrous since the promised power pretty much always happens.
I don't think there is going to be any 40hp+ smoking gun in the tune...the fuel is right where it needs to be and I believe he tried 25 - 29 degrees timing and showed almost no change anywhere and zero KR.
Last edited by 74u; 07-27-2014 at 10:14 PM.