Ryne @ CMS

iTrader: (10)

Today we did a simple apples to apples comparision with a FAST 102 to a new MSD airforce intake manifold, on a c6 z06. We baseline dyno'ed and insured the Air fuel was correct with the fast 102, then installed the msd and did the same thing.

Car: 06 c6 z06
Mods:
CMS custom stage 3 cam (23x-25x on a 113)
WCCH stage 2 heads
FAST 102/ NW102 tb
ARH long tube headers with cats
stock rear section exhaust
DSX flex fuel sensor setup
FIC 725 cc injectors
Vararam intake
CMS custom flex fuel calibration

all runs done on e85, ethanol content of 76-78% throughout the day. we tried to keep coolant temp and IAT temps the same from run to run, in order to keep this test as legit as possible.

Fast 102/nw102 baseline:
553 RWHP and 510rwtq

MSD Airforce / NW102
562 rwhp 510 rwtq

conclusion:
After viewing the MSD airforce at sema last year, I could definitely see there were improvements over the fast 102 intake manifold. That being said, I knew in a factory style intake configuration, there wasn't going to be a huge gain without sacrificing power/tq down low and into the mid range. As you can see in the dyno sheet below, the msd does sacrifice a very slight bit down low and into the midrange, in exchange of a larger increase in power from 5000+ rpm on. In fact HP/TQ averages are slightly higher with the MSD unit. Now if the customer has an msd intake would I suggest upgrading to a msd? I would say its not worth the investment, however if he had a factory intake, I'd say move into the MSD versus the fast. In addition to the power gains, I like the fact that the msd utilizes the use of the production ls7 fuel and injectors. This means initial investment is less then the FAST unit, as the fast will require injector height adapters (or different length injectors) and a ls2/3 fuel rail (or aftermarket rails). I've also attached a text data sheet of both runs.

Dyno Video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaVY...ature=youtu.be

dyno sheet with peak numbers, run 1 is the msd, 2 is the fast:




Dyno sheet with avg. numbers, run 1 is the msd, 2 is the fast



Intake pics

CAMSTER

iTrader: (10)

Thanks for sharing with us your test findings, leads me to believe the leading intake manifold it was tested against by Lingenfelter was not The Fast LSXR as I was suspecting, certainly their findings and yours are vastly different or 36 versus 10 hp if I recall rite and no torque gain.

I called and they would not talk but ask me to call MSD instead.

IMO the Fast intake is a better looking piece with better initial appearance, the air force may take some getting use to it.

I would personally be trying it will like to see tests done on fully massage units.

1989GTA

Ryne this falls in line with another post from last night. They also gained 9-10hp up top and this was with 4 hours of tuning. With their test there was a slight loss of torque. He also did not say if there were any mods or not and did not post a chart. Waiting on that.

See you April 28. I am looking hard at the new Vararam intake manifold for my 1965 Skylark. Also a low lash solid roller camshaft. I should keep you busy in the coming months. Hahahaha

redbird555

iTrader: (14)

Ya I saw this coming lol there is just only so much one can do when limited to space constraints and head types. The msd looked like it mirrored the fast for most of the dyno then around 6100-6500 it pulled 7-9 hp over the fast. Also the afr leaned out a good bit between the 2 there so that could be worth a couple. Not enough for me to switch but I'll be keeping an eye on the new fast runners.

This is also on a cammed ls7, I'd be willing to bet the difference on an ls1 346 would be less if there even was a difference; it just doesnt have the air demands of a 427. Bottom line get whichever is cheapest lol

kinglt-1

iTrader: (26)

Was this a non ported Fast?

Tuskyz28

The Fast held its ground!! If I owned a fast intake already I surely wouldn't spend a 1000 bucks for 10 horsepower and another 350 dollars or more for tuning......
I'm willing to bet a ported Fast from Mamo would walk all over the MSD intake.
I'm glad someone did a real apple to apple comparison evaluation/test and gave out the results to the speed junkies. Thanks again!!

ryan23

iTrader: (5)

A ported FAST wouldn't really be apples to apples comparison then, would it? From what I understand, porting a FAST 102 is good for about 10hp... which brings it on par with the MSD. Then what happens when you port the MSD? Keep in mind, the MSD has a much lower cost of entry than the FAST as it can use stock rails

Ryan

Fat Jesus 808

iTrader: (5)

Any way to pressure test the units?

redbird555

iTrader: (14)

A good port on a fast is worth a lot more than 10hp depending on who does it and what setup. And how is the msd a lower cost entry? If youre putting it on an ls1 it still requires ls2 fuel rails just like the fast..... not to mention fast can be had for under 800 new shopping around, the msd so far cannot.

again this is 8-9hp on a 427 with a nasty cam and WCCH Stg 2 heads. Do you really think that you would see 8-9hp just the same as this on a stock ls1 with a 228r cam or similar? The air demands of this ls7 are exponentially larger than that of an ls1. I'm not holding my breath, and I'm not swinging for fast either here. I'd sell mine in a heartbeat if this thing blew it away or at least get new runners for it.

It only gained for 400 rpm at the top as well its not like the intake made that everywhere, and if you look the msd was leaned out to 13.5 af precisily where iot gained at 6100 and the fast was 13.1, while I personally wouldn't want to run it at 13.5:1 theres a few ponies left there for the fast had it been leaned out like the msd.

I think if this thing delivered what we were "lead" to believe we would would see a whole lot of dyno tests. But the silence thus far when sponsors have had these intakes in hand now for a solid 1-2 weeks speaks volumes.

Tuskyz28

Great question!! The MSD doesn't really blow the fast intake away like everyone expected. I may be wrong but I'm go say on a cathedral headed motor the fast intake response will be even better than those rectangular heads such as here (LS7). From what I have seen cathedral heads/fast intakes go together like oreos and milk....... and rectangular heads/hi rise type intakes go together hand in hand. Too bad us F body guys have to cut the cowl for those......

ryan23

iTrader: (5)

Can you cite some examples of where "a lot more than 10hp" was gained with a ported FAST? Look, I don't work for MSD and I'm not being paid to comment either. A quick search and here's a guy that changed from a stock LS2 intake to a Mamo ported FAST 102:

https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamomet...ed-otrcai.html

He picked up 31whp. He's got worked heads and a healthy cam. How much do you think the CAI and an unported FAST would have gained him? 5hp?

Cost of entry (Jegs)

FAST 146202 : $983
MSD 121-2701 $949

So there's $34. Oh, and I also need rails with the FAST.. there's another $200+ that I didn't spend with MSD. How much is it to have Tony port a FAST? Not cheap... and until you show me otherwise, I'm going to believe that the $700 premium to get MSD #'s is a tad steep for what is gained.

Why am I referencing LS7 parts? Because not all of us are trying to put this manifold on an LS1. I'm on a MID sleeved 427 with ported LS7 heads and a BTR Stage IV. This dyno comparo is valid for me. Trying to extrapolate these results and apply them to smaller CID cathedral port setup is pure conjecture at this point.

Ryan

ryan23

iTrader: (5)

The claim of 36hp was over a stock LS7 intake:

http://www.onallcylinders.com/2014/1...take-manifold/

Tested against an "aftermarket intake", they saw 16hp. We see 9hp here but there are just so many variables.

But agreed, the MSD is fugly as hell.

Ryan

redbird555

iTrader: (14)

Ok first off I'm sensing some hostility here so calm down. Look I'm nt going to go around citing threads, you can easily find them yourself. Even Mano claims his ports on big motors will make more than 10 over a stock fast.

Also you're citing jegs, pretty much the most expensive place you can. Go look at other sponsors the msd is routinely more expensive to buy. And also unless you have ls1 fuel rails stock rails will work on either intake ls1 rails don't work on either of them. So the argument for rails is out as I stated earlier.

I never said the dyno wasn't valid for you. I said the msd was Leaner and only made slightly more power for 400 rpms which happened to be where it was leaned out by almost a half of a point. You really don't think that will make a few more hp?

Extrapolating these results for an ls1 may not be the most accurate thing in the world but it's not inaccurate either. The intakes are designed the same the ports are just different shapes but the runner length volume etc are not really different by much. That coupled with the fact you'd have to be blind to not think that the HC ls7 will require the same air needs as a 346 gives a pretty good estimate on how the 2 will perform on a 346. Again I never said it wasn't applicable to your build.

What I am saying is that I wouldn't hold my breath for an msd to make any more power than a fast given a similar mild-med combo the age difference here most like netted a few ponies at the least. Imo get whichever one is cheaper it's a wash between them hp wise

Goosecaddy05

I'm staying with fast simply because the MSD looks horrible... Cheap and tacky IMO

Tuskyz28

Everybody on the thread is talking about horsepower on each intake... ported vs no porting etc...
Let's add torque to the evaluation..... Tony Mamo port jobs isn't just all horsepower gains it adds TORQUE too which what MOVES you.

DietCoke

iTrader: (18)

The LS7 intake is much better then the LS3 intake (factory and FAST). I think you'll see better results on the LS3 and cathedral products.

Does it blow the fast away? Nope.

Does it make more power for the same price with no additional items needed? Yep.

Not sure what more you could want, really. It's not like you couldn't send this thing to a porter and have it worked just the same as a fast or any other manifold. FWIW when mamo did my 102 it was 450+shipping

redbird555

iTrader: (14)

I agree with dietcoke however I'm still pretty convinced the 2 are on par with each other. .4 afr points is a pretty big deal when it comes to making 8-9 hp its just a coincidence that the only place the msd gained was where it was leaner than the fast?

I think you cant go wrong with either intake buy whichever is cheapest. But if your expecting one to have a noticeable difference over the other I doubt you'll see it happen

ryan23

iTrader: (5)

First off, I apologize if you're sensing "hostility". What I'm doing is disagreeing with you. That's what tends to happen, especially on forums where people have preconceived notions, brand loyalty, ETC. You came across that way too, when you said:

Why do you feel misled? They claimed a gain of 36hp over a stock LS7. 16hp over a competitor. Ryne showed 9hp over a stock FAST... is that really out of the realm of reality on 2 different dynos, 2 different days, 2 different cars? I don't think so.

Now I'm going to address your post. I'm not picking on you/being hostile, so please don't get your panties in a bunch.

- We're talking about LS7 heads. You keep bringing up LS1/LS2 fuel rails. This intake is not available (yet) to suit your application. The testing here is relevant to "my setup" and anyone else's setup that is running LS7 heads. We tend not to have 346's. With that said...

- Retail price is retail price. I didn't just join the forum yesterday, I understand that sponsors sell products at different tiers. However, the spread is the same. You can get $100 of retail on the FAST? I can get $100 off the MSD. I chose to use the price at Jeg's to level the playing field.

- Fuel rails.... here's the scenario. I have a stock LS7 intake & rails. I want to change my IM, What do I have to buy? Can I just buy an LSXR, bolt it on and go? It's my understanding that I need P/N 146020-KIT ($255) or billet rails. If I'm wrong, please correct me.

- I'm not sure how much dyno tuning you have done... but I've seen plenty of small variances in A/F from pull to pull. Hell, my engine made best power at 12.5:1 off the collectors. At the tail pipe it's 13.25:1. There is no absolute, and it's not as easy as 13.5:1 will always make best power. It just doesn't work that way. This isn't my first rodeo, friend.

Ryan

Goosecaddy05

Dude your definitely being hostile... Simmer down now... Its too easy to come off that way on the net even if you don't mean too

redbird555

iTrader: (14)

Lol I'm not losing any sleep over this I said you were hostile because your first post looked like you had something to prove. Also ALL version of the intake should be available someone just got one here for a cathedral set last week.