Evrything is together, but have a question on my numbers.
11-29-2008, 02:59 PM
#1
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Evrything is together, but have a question on my numbers. My current build is done and am working on my numbers. I have built(4l80e) with yank 3400 verter. The motor is is approximiate 8.5 comp built 408 with stage 3 Lq9 patriot heads. The cam is a stock z06 cam. The turbo system is a ptk t-76 kit with IC and meth inj. Im using 75 lbs injectors with dual wal pumps. Im curious what i can look at if im missing something. I think I might have to small of a turbo and need to upgrade that. The car made 598 hp and 712lbs torque on 14lbs. Let me know Im using ls1 edit for tuning. Thank you guys this has been a long build and you guys input is all appreciated.
11-29-2008, 05:03 PM
#3
What is max airflow of that t76?
600rwhp is like 750 engine hp already. What happens when you go higher on the boost why are you only trying 14psi?
I don't see cam being a big problem. Seen some pretty mild cams doing some big numbers in other 408 builds. Ling puts my cam into 427s.
Lots of variable..what is afr, what is timing?
600rwhp is like 750 engine hp already. What happens when you go higher on the boost why are you only trying 14psi?
I don't see cam being a big problem. Seen some pretty mild cams doing some big numbers in other 408 builds. Ling puts my cam into 427s.
Lots of variable..what is afr, what is timing?
11-29-2008, 05:24 PM
#4
When I saw "408" and "T76", I knew right away that people will blame it on too many cubes for the turbo. However, I disagree. Granted, it won't make 1000 rwhp with those cubes on that turbo, but it should do very well at 14 psi. With the 4L80E locked up, I would expect somewhere around 700-750. Unlocked, perhaps 650.
11-29-2008, 08:22 PM
#7
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What cam might you guys recomend. im not looking for a bad *** race cam. I just want a really streetable setup. I have no probs with kb cobras cause autos shine against 6 speed snakes. Also who has best prices on cams now. I just started getting back in the game guys had a son with meed problems. So been over a year since ive really started buying parts for my car. So sponsors have changed. Hell my engine builder isnt even in business no more. So that GT-7 cam work good for you. The turbo is a turbonetics t76. I believe the AR is .96. ill have to get the timing data for you guys but its not alot do to pump gas and street tune. This car is a street car.
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11-29-2008, 08:41 PM
#8
I dont have any dyno numbers for you till next spring and my combo is twin turbo and different of course in other ways.
But I like the gt7. Now if you already have a z06 the question is what year..
here is zo6 and ling compared. Not sure what the 04 specs for z06 are.
02-03 ZO6 cam: 204/218 .551/.547 -117.5 LSA
Lingenfelter GT2-3 207/220 .571/.578 –118.5CL
05-07 ZO6 cam 210/230 .561/.557 –120.5 LSA
Lingenfelter GT7 208/230 .554/.546 –121CL
While I found the lift a bit mellow for a 408 I simply added 1.8 rockers. That gives me more like 590 lift. Keeps a reasonable duration for a nice street cam and keeps that nice big lsa which don't let any boost out. I also didn't want to be changing out springs every 20,000 miles like some high lift over 600 cams. and wanted to make sure had more headroom to protect against valve float under boost. I have 8019 springs good for 650 lift. So about .60 under with current cam and 1.8s. My cam is fine with 1.8s and the z06 should be also.
And figure lingenfelter knows a thing or two about streetable turbo cars. Call them and ask what cams they use in 99% of their turbo builds even the bigger 408 or 427.The gt7 is the one.
Now thing read your turbo flows about 110 pounds airflow or something so it should do
about 1100 or something engine hp. Or around 850 to 900 rwhp with 20% loss just being approximate here. So if you are only seeing like 600rwhp you are defintely low of potential. But I think its simply you have to run the turbo up higher to maybe 18 or 20 psi. With my two smaller turbos think 15/16psi might get me their max potential of 1000 engine or around 800rwhp thru my planned 4l80. Bigger engine usually just less boost needed to max the turbo over smaller engine like 346. Course way small may choke too much depending on ar .too low ar of course trades off low end and spool for top end power and more lag. Maybe you do need to go bigger turbo to an 88mm they seem to work great on 408s. But would try more boost first. See what you have for afr and timing also. And what about exhaust .A catback street exhaust can kill power. Get an electric cutout and bet you gain good power when its open.
Also any boost leaks..they can really take away power. You can make a tester or use auto smoke machine.
What do other guys with 408 and t76 get for numbers?
But I like the gt7. Now if you already have a z06 the question is what year..
here is zo6 and ling compared. Not sure what the 04 specs for z06 are.
02-03 ZO6 cam: 204/218 .551/.547 -117.5 LSA
Lingenfelter GT2-3 207/220 .571/.578 –118.5CL
05-07 ZO6 cam 210/230 .561/.557 –120.5 LSA
Lingenfelter GT7 208/230 .554/.546 –121CL
While I found the lift a bit mellow for a 408 I simply added 1.8 rockers. That gives me more like 590 lift. Keeps a reasonable duration for a nice street cam and keeps that nice big lsa which don't let any boost out. I also didn't want to be changing out springs every 20,000 miles like some high lift over 600 cams. and wanted to make sure had more headroom to protect against valve float under boost. I have 8019 springs good for 650 lift. So about .60 under with current cam and 1.8s. My cam is fine with 1.8s and the z06 should be also.
And figure lingenfelter knows a thing or two about streetable turbo cars. Call them and ask what cams they use in 99% of their turbo builds even the bigger 408 or 427.The gt7 is the one.
Now thing read your turbo flows about 110 pounds airflow or something so it should do
about 1100 or something engine hp. Or around 850 to 900 rwhp with 20% loss just being approximate here. So if you are only seeing like 600rwhp you are defintely low of potential. But I think its simply you have to run the turbo up higher to maybe 18 or 20 psi. With my two smaller turbos think 15/16psi might get me their max potential of 1000 engine or around 800rwhp thru my planned 4l80. Bigger engine usually just less boost needed to max the turbo over smaller engine like 346. Course way small may choke too much depending on ar .too low ar of course trades off low end and spool for top end power and more lag. Maybe you do need to go bigger turbo to an 88mm they seem to work great on 408s. But would try more boost first. See what you have for afr and timing also. And what about exhaust .A catback street exhaust can kill power. Get an electric cutout and bet you gain good power when its open.
Also any boost leaks..they can really take away power. You can make a tester or use auto smoke machine.
What do other guys with 408 and t76 get for numbers?
11-29-2008, 11:11 PM
#10
Plus all kinds of dyno's read differently ect. Also with a .96 ar on the hot side, maybe talk to jose and FI, and see if maybe they could get you in a 1.06 to 1.10 for the bigger cubes. might help you get a little more out of the turbo.
As far as a cam, I have not looked into building a 408, but if i was, i would talk to Bob @ epp, or Talk to the guys @ speed inc, and have the spec me a cam.
If you talked to either of them, they could get you into something boost friendly, thats not a pain to drive.
Also might want to check your back pressure, and go the electric cutout route as mentioned.
As far as a cam, I have not looked into building a 408, but if i was, i would talk to Bob @ epp, or Talk to the guys @ speed inc, and have the spec me a cam.
If you talked to either of them, they could get you into something boost friendly, thats not a pain to drive.
Also might want to check your back pressure, and go the electric cutout route as mentioned.
11-30-2008, 02:29 AM
#14
I have seen fast 90/90s on 1000 hp builds. There are two referenced on the afr website in magazine articles. And as said seen mild cams make good power. You never said what you are running for timing and never said why you are not taking the boost up higher than 14psi. Run it up higher and dyno again and let us know your max timing and afr.
If you are pig rich you will lose power and low timing will also really hurt power. Out of the three afr, timing and boost ,boost makes the most power,then timing then afr. Your compression alone is likely loosing quite a bit of power. You went low compression so you should be running higher boost to compensate. I went 9.5 on my 408. With alc injection like you have you can run a lot more boost and timing than without it.
And as said if your exhaust is just your usual catback then a cutout could free up quite a bit of power when its open. I would try the above before changing cams and you didn't say what year zo6 that is. There is zip wrong with a z06 cam if its either of the ones I listed above. You can add 1.8 rockers to gain more lift and still keep the nice driveabilty of the z06 thruout the rpm range. Again not saying epp or speed inc can't make you a decent cam but also don't think lingenfelter are dummies either.
Also we never saw the dyno graph...that might help also and if you have that 3400 PY yank I think they have dynoed very close to the same locked or unlocked they are very efficient. Was the car hooking on the dyno did you use drag tires or street tires.If it was spinning bad on the dyno your numbers will be way lower.And is it mustang dyno. they can read way lower than dynojet if set that way. Still lots of variables. Are you maf or speed density..
If you are pig rich you will lose power and low timing will also really hurt power. Out of the three afr, timing and boost ,boost makes the most power,then timing then afr. Your compression alone is likely loosing quite a bit of power. You went low compression so you should be running higher boost to compensate. I went 9.5 on my 408. With alc injection like you have you can run a lot more boost and timing than without it.
And as said if your exhaust is just your usual catback then a cutout could free up quite a bit of power when its open. I would try the above before changing cams and you didn't say what year zo6 that is. There is zip wrong with a z06 cam if its either of the ones I listed above. You can add 1.8 rockers to gain more lift and still keep the nice driveabilty of the z06 thruout the rpm range. Again not saying epp or speed inc can't make you a decent cam but also don't think lingenfelter are dummies either.
Also we never saw the dyno graph...that might help also and if you have that 3400 PY yank I think they have dynoed very close to the same locked or unlocked they are very efficient. Was the car hooking on the dyno did you use drag tires or street tires.If it was spinning bad on the dyno your numbers will be way lower.And is it mustang dyno. they can read way lower than dynojet if set that way. Still lots of variables. Are you maf or speed density..
11-30-2008, 04:39 AM
#15
TECH Apprentice
the engine will devolop alot of torque with the older Q trim turbine wheels, and like etc...
the exhaust b/p helps devolop torque on the turbine wheel.
with the true street cars, torque is problay more important , than hp.
good comment, and observation
ash
11-30-2008, 12:33 PM
#18
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I have harland sharp rockers on the car right now and the cam is out of a 02 z06. The reason I have gone with 14lbs is going for a safe tune. Ill grab the data on the timing. But pretty sure it was 10 degrees just being conservative right now guys. Im 98 with a 98 computer. dont have the big bucks for BS3 yet, but it is on to do list. Nice talking to you kyle again and we will be doing some more road trips to the track bud but this time we can bring my car. No offense guys i look at some of the problems you guys have had and learn from them(TY MM). Trying not to lift heads and becareful on what im doing. I talked to Kyle for a bit and going to try 17lbs next. Also I was on DRs and on MAF
11-30-2008, 12:37 PM
#19
Are they 1.7 rockers or 1.8? 10 degrees is stupid conservative at that compression ratio on premium fuel.You should easily be able to dial in maybe 16 and bet pick up a good 50 hp there and another likely 50 plus with going up on boost at least if not more. Should have lots left to get out of that setup before you have to go to bigger turbo.
11-30-2008, 12:46 PM
#20
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1.7 Harland sharps sorry if im methodical about my info just so much to type for me. I also have no exhaust on the car yet but do plan on cut out for it. Thanks you guys input is pretty important as I amnot trying to recreate the wheel. TY