4.0L WHIPPLE- <-Official thread.
10-20-2013, 09:19 AM
#62
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Are your IAT's stable if you steady state the engine? What water pressure did you run on the intercooler? The 2.9 I tested was unstable on longer dyno runs (960hp/427ci). I am hoping that the 4.0 intercooler is good enough to stabilize the IAT enough for road racing and supply 1000hp. The lower rotor speed of the 4.0 should lower the outlet temp, so I'm hopeful!
Kurt
Kurt
10-20-2013, 09:28 AM
#63
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Having your fittings on opposing ends is sweet, that should help a bunch. Would like to know full throttle info on yours: Do your IAT's level off at what temp? I can't stabilize them on the dyno. This stops me from even testing in the car until I see this repaired. The water flow on the 4.0 looks promising.
Kurt
Kurt
Kurt thanks for sharing the info. I've ran into some minor issues with my build, but from what I have seen just at idle my intercooler design setup is staying near close to ambient just at idle which I think is great for a PD blower.
For whats is worth I believe my intercooler is smaller than the one they put in the 2.9 kit, but I do have -12an inlet/outlet on opposite sides instead of directly beside each other. Should be driving mine this coming week, I will get a log with IAT and see where its at.
For whats is worth I believe my intercooler is smaller than the one they put in the 2.9 kit, but I do have -12an inlet/outlet on opposite sides instead of directly beside each other. Should be driving mine this coming week, I will get a log with IAT and see where its at.
10-20-2013, 11:17 AM
#64
Kurt, do you think the 4.0 intercooler is up to supporting 1000 hp on a road course? Even the Ford guys seem to struggle with IAT2! I have seen one car with a massive front mounted HE and then a second mounted in the rear! Still struggled keeping air temps down on track!
Would a centri blower not offer a better setup esp when it comes to keepin inlet temps down. Alternatively how about side mounting one?
Would a centri blower not offer a better setup esp when it comes to keepin inlet temps down. Alternatively how about side mounting one?
10-20-2013, 12:20 PM
#65
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I like the idea of centri, but I want a crate engine solution that bolts into the car easy. The centri is much like a turbo that is hard without fabrication on the car.
Right now I am just trying to find the solution on the engine, if I find that I will start on the he problem. I have some ideas that I think will make for some fast laps, but ultimately the water will dictate how long you can run hard.
I would like a driveshaft driven centri mounted on the rear axle for the cars I work with most often. They are called pro touring cars and run road courses and autocross on limited traction dot tires. On the autocross they normally run first gear and are overpowered enough that some guys are running faster in second gear with the engine bogged down a bit. When they get on the road course they could use more hp because of the higher speeds. A centri driven off the rear axle would be very good at this I think as boost/hp/lowTQ would increase with speed. Probably a little crazy.......
Kurt
Right now I am just trying to find the solution on the engine, if I find that I will start on the he problem. I have some ideas that I think will make for some fast laps, but ultimately the water will dictate how long you can run hard.
I would like a driveshaft driven centri mounted on the rear axle for the cars I work with most often. They are called pro touring cars and run road courses and autocross on limited traction dot tires. On the autocross they normally run first gear and are overpowered enough that some guys are running faster in second gear with the engine bogged down a bit. When they get on the road course they could use more hp because of the higher speeds. A centri driven off the rear axle would be very good at this I think as boost/hp/lowTQ would increase with speed. Probably a little crazy.......
Kurt
Kurt, do you think the 4.0 intercooler is up to supporting 1000 hp on a road course? Even the Ford guys seem to struggle with IAT2! I have seen one car with a massive front mounted HE and then a second mounted in the rear! Still struggled keeping air temps down on track!
Would a centri blower not offer a better setup esp when it comes to keepin inlet temps down. Alternatively how about side mounting one?
Would a centri blower not offer a better setup esp when it comes to keepin inlet temps down. Alternatively how about side mounting one?
10-20-2013, 12:51 PM
#66
Are your IAT's stable if you steady state the engine? What water pressure did you run on the intercooler? The 2.9 I tested was unstable on longer dyno runs (960hp/427ci). I am hoping that the 4.0 intercooler is good enough to stabilize the IAT enough for road racing and supply 1000hp. The lower rotor speed of the 4.0 should lower the outlet temp, so I'm hopeful!
Kurt
Kurt
I’m hoping this time with lower boost I’ll be able to keep it somewhat stable. 12.3 lbs is not a lot, but I won’t know for sure what my air/water temps will be until I get the engine in the car and on the chassis Dyno. There I’ll be able to load it and see what happens over time. This engine is going into a sand car so it’s not as enclosed as a car would be. The only time I had no issues whatsoever is when I ran the fuel “though” the blower from the top. The rotors stayed very cool and the engine is still running today... I built it about 4 years ago... Pic below.
10-20-2013, 03:34 PM
#67
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That looks interesting but tall! I might try a little fuel before the rotors, methanol if I can't get it under control.
I cannot control IAT on the dyno even with 30 PSI of cool water going into the cooler on the 2.9 Whipple. The 4.0 intercooler looks much better, it might get me control. 1000hp is going to take 14-15 pounds on my current engine, hopefully I'll find the sweet spot!
Eventually I am going to attempt making a turbocharged road race engine if I get this under control.....
Kurt
I cannot control IAT on the dyno even with 30 PSI of cool water going into the cooler on the 2.9 Whipple. The 4.0 intercooler looks much better, it might get me control. 1000hp is going to take 14-15 pounds on my current engine, hopefully I'll find the sweet spot!
Eventually I am going to attempt making a turbocharged road race engine if I get this under control.....
Kurt
Kurt, On the engine dyno it was not a problem to control because of a vast water supply. But as you said, it’s harder to control once in the car. I’ve done a lot of these Whipple LS engines and air temp is an issue.
I’m hoping this time with lower boost I’ll be able to keep it somewhat stable. 12.3 lbs is not a lot, but I won’t know for sure what my air/water temps will be until I get the engine in the car and on the chassis Dyno. There I’ll be able to load it and see what happens over time. This engine is going into a sand car so it’s not as enclosed as a car would be. The only time I had no issues whatsoever is when I ran the fuel “though” the blower from the top. The rotors stayed very cool and the engine is still running today... I built it about 4 years ago... Pic below.
I’m hoping this time with lower boost I’ll be able to keep it somewhat stable. 12.3 lbs is not a lot, but I won’t know for sure what my air/water temps will be until I get the engine in the car and on the chassis Dyno. There I’ll be able to load it and see what happens over time. This engine is going into a sand car so it’s not as enclosed as a car would be. The only time I had no issues whatsoever is when I ran the fuel “though” the blower from the top. The rotors stayed very cool and the engine is still running today... I built it about 4 years ago... Pic below.
10-20-2013, 04:43 PM
#69
That looks interesting but tall! I might try a little fuel before the rotors, methanol if I can't get it under control.
I cannot control IAT on the dyno even with 30 PSI of cool water going into the cooler on the 2.9 Whipple. The 4.0 intercooler looks much better, it might get me control. 1000hp is going to take 14-15 pounds on my current engine, hopefully I'll find the sweet spot!
Eventually I am going to attempt making a turbocharged road race engine if I get this under control.....
Kurt
I cannot control IAT on the dyno even with 30 PSI of cool water going into the cooler on the 2.9 Whipple. The 4.0 intercooler looks much better, it might get me control. 1000hp is going to take 14-15 pounds on my current engine, hopefully I'll find the sweet spot!
Eventually I am going to attempt making a turbocharged road race engine if I get this under control.....
Kurt
Something else you my want to try is have Whipple make your rotors out of magnesium. It’s an expensive option but it seems to help with the air temps. It did this on the engine below and it made stupid power @ 23 lbs of boost and ran for years in this sand car.
10-20-2013, 06:08 PM
#70
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I can't use E85 because I want the engine to be capable of driving across whatever country it lands in! Whipple has said they are close on a new unit that is called a 4.5. Not sure if it's the same rotors that are just longer or a larger diameter set. I am feeling hopeful seeing your results with the 4.0 that this one will work. I will start on modifying the intercooler fittings this week, then I need to make a belt drive for the testing.
kurt
kurt
Yeah, if you run E85 through the drive, it will actually be cool to the touch... Not sure you are able/allowed to use that for your application but it works very well on this set-up.
Something else you my want to try is have Whipple make your rotors out of magnesium. It’s an expensive option but it seems to help with the air temps. It did this on the engine below and it made stupid power @ 23 lbs of boost and ran for years in this sand car.
Something else you my want to try is have Whipple make your rotors out of magnesium. It’s an expensive option but it seems to help with the air temps. It did this on the engine below and it made stupid power @ 23 lbs of boost and ran for years in this sand car.
10-21-2013, 01:00 AM
#71
Now this thread is getting really intresting! Magnesium rotors, fuel pre blower and turbo road race crate engines! :
How come the mag rotors run cooler than the stock ones? I can see them being lighter than alloy but in not aware of the thermal properties of magnesium. Also is there any issue with longevity? I know mag alloy wheels and hubs, for example, had to be painted to stop corrosion.
I can see why running fuel through the blower would keep it cool. However is that not just masking the inefficiency of the intercooler as you are basically running chemical cooling. Also, what's that going to do for fuel consumption? I know it not onthe top of the list for most, but it's a factor to think about esp in a creat engine.
I have thought about drive shaft driven centrifugal superchargers before. I like the idea of moving the weight off the front of the car and mouting the unit in a cooler location. Would be intresting to use one of the new procharger units with the cvt drive system! The only issue I can see is operating Rome are much more varied than on a engine driven unit. You will be massively under-driving the unit in lower gears but over driving in higher gears. Controlling boost could be an issue!
As for a turbo road race engine, well it's the ultimate solution in my eyes! You just needed to get people away from worrying about he heat. With anti-lag for out of this world boost response and ECMs that can provide any lvl of control you wan, they really would be the nbest solution. The only issue I see with the LS engine is packaging. Although its a small v8 it's still not a small engine. Plus turbos need a lot of space, cold air in, hot air out, exhaust in and out, intercoolers, etc. to get a decent sized turbo (twin garrett tr30r maybe?) in to a compact engine is hard.
On intercooling I think using air to air intercooler(s) is the best method as they are the most efficient (less barriers for the heat to cross). However its again down to packaging and getting enough cooling of the intake air but not effecting others areas (aero or engine water / oil cooling). I know on say the Corvette the turbo guys really struggle to get the balance right. Maybe you could do a car specific engine / intercooling package.
Finally, what sort of power are you aiming for from the road race engine package?
How come the mag rotors run cooler than the stock ones? I can see them being lighter than alloy but in not aware of the thermal properties of magnesium. Also is there any issue with longevity? I know mag alloy wheels and hubs, for example, had to be painted to stop corrosion.
I can see why running fuel through the blower would keep it cool. However is that not just masking the inefficiency of the intercooler as you are basically running chemical cooling. Also, what's that going to do for fuel consumption? I know it not onthe top of the list for most, but it's a factor to think about esp in a creat engine.
I have thought about drive shaft driven centrifugal superchargers before. I like the idea of moving the weight off the front of the car and mouting the unit in a cooler location. Would be intresting to use one of the new procharger units with the cvt drive system! The only issue I can see is operating Rome are much more varied than on a engine driven unit. You will be massively under-driving the unit in lower gears but over driving in higher gears. Controlling boost could be an issue!
As for a turbo road race engine, well it's the ultimate solution in my eyes! You just needed to get people away from worrying about he heat. With anti-lag for out of this world boost response and ECMs that can provide any lvl of control you wan, they really would be the nbest solution. The only issue I see with the LS engine is packaging. Although its a small v8 it's still not a small engine. Plus turbos need a lot of space, cold air in, hot air out, exhaust in and out, intercoolers, etc. to get a decent sized turbo (twin garrett tr30r maybe?) in to a compact engine is hard.
On intercooling I think using air to air intercooler(s) is the best method as they are the most efficient (less barriers for the heat to cross). However its again down to packaging and getting enough cooling of the intake air but not effecting others areas (aero or engine water / oil cooling). I know on say the Corvette the turbo guys really struggle to get the balance right. Maybe you could do a car specific engine / intercooling package.
Finally, what sort of power are you aiming for from the road race engine package?
Last edited by chuntington101; 10-21-2013 at 02:43 AM.
10-21-2013, 07:57 AM
#72
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On this crate engine I want solid 1000hp at the flywheel.
On the fuel before the supercharger I am looking at using an ECU that can control two sets of injectors staged. This should allow the addition of two injectors before that only work in boost. Fuel MPG is very high on the list of needs, would like near 20 MPG in race street/race type car with gearing that is not optimal for fuel.
My centri thoughts might be crazy, but watching these cars it seems like it might work. With my 600hp NA crate engine (645-660 flywheel) they have enough power that they are using second gear on autocross tracks most times to bog the engine. On road course stuff they finally use WOT in the top of second, at that point minor boost would be coming and the bottom of third would gain psi on the shift because the blower speed would not change on the shift. It should make hp keep climbing as the tires could handle it. Might not work.....
Kurt
On the fuel before the supercharger I am looking at using an ECU that can control two sets of injectors staged. This should allow the addition of two injectors before that only work in boost. Fuel MPG is very high on the list of needs, would like near 20 MPG in race street/race type car with gearing that is not optimal for fuel.
My centri thoughts might be crazy, but watching these cars it seems like it might work. With my 600hp NA crate engine (645-660 flywheel) they have enough power that they are using second gear on autocross tracks most times to bog the engine. On road course stuff they finally use WOT in the top of second, at that point minor boost would be coming and the bottom of third would gain psi on the shift because the blower speed would not change on the shift. It should make hp keep climbing as the tires could handle it. Might not work.....
Kurt
Now this thread is getting really intresting! Magnesium rotors, fuel pre blower and turbo road race crate engines! :
How come the mag rotors run cooler than the stock ones? I can see them being lighter than alloy but in not aware of the thermal properties of magnesium. Also is there any issue with longevity? I know mag alloy wheels and hubs, for example, had to be painted to stop corrosion.
I can see why running fuel through the blower would keep it cool. However is that not just masking the inefficiency of the intercooler as you are basically running chemical cooling. Also, what's that going to do for fuel consumption? I know it not onthe top of the list for most, but it's a factor to think about esp in a creat engine.
I have thought about drive shaft driven centrifugal superchargers before. I like the idea of moving the weight off the front of the car and mouting the unit in a cooler location. Would be intresting to use one of the new procharger units with the cvt drive system! The only issue I can see is operating Rome are much more varied than on a engine driven unit. You will be massively under-driving the unit in lower gears but over driving in higher gears. Controlling boost could be an issue!
As for a turbo road race engine, well it's the ultimate solution in my eyes! You just needed to get people away from worrying about he heat. With anti-lag for out of this world boost response and ECMs that can provide any lvl of control you wan, they really would be the nbest solution. The only issue I see with the LS engine is packaging. Although its a small v8 it's still not a small engine. Plus turbos need a lot of space, cold air in, hot air out, exhaust in and out, intercoolers, etc. to get a decent sized turbo (twin garrett tr30r maybe?) in to a compact engine is hard.
On intercooling I think using air to air intercooler(s) is the best method as they are the most efficient (less barriers for the heat to cross). However its again down to packaging and getting enough cooling of the intake air but not effecting others areas (aero or engine water / oil cooling). I know on say the Corvette the turbo guys really struggle to get the balance right. Maybe you could do a car specific engine / intercooling package.
Finally, what sort of power are you aiming for from the road race engine package?
How come the mag rotors run cooler than the stock ones? I can see them being lighter than alloy but in not aware of the thermal properties of magnesium. Also is there any issue with longevity? I know mag alloy wheels and hubs, for example, had to be painted to stop corrosion.
I can see why running fuel through the blower would keep it cool. However is that not just masking the inefficiency of the intercooler as you are basically running chemical cooling. Also, what's that going to do for fuel consumption? I know it not onthe top of the list for most, but it's a factor to think about esp in a creat engine.
I have thought about drive shaft driven centrifugal superchargers before. I like the idea of moving the weight off the front of the car and mouting the unit in a cooler location. Would be intresting to use one of the new procharger units with the cvt drive system! The only issue I can see is operating Rome are much more varied than on a engine driven unit. You will be massively under-driving the unit in lower gears but over driving in higher gears. Controlling boost could be an issue!
As for a turbo road race engine, well it's the ultimate solution in my eyes! You just needed to get people away from worrying about he heat. With anti-lag for out of this world boost response and ECMs that can provide any lvl of control you wan, they really would be the nbest solution. The only issue I see with the LS engine is packaging. Although its a small v8 it's still not a small engine. Plus turbos need a lot of space, cold air in, hot air out, exhaust in and out, intercoolers, etc. to get a decent sized turbo (twin garrett tr30r maybe?) in to a compact engine is hard.
On intercooling I think using air to air intercooler(s) is the best method as they are the most efficient (less barriers for the heat to cross). However its again down to packaging and getting enough cooling of the intake air but not effecting others areas (aero or engine water / oil cooling). I know on say the Corvette the turbo guys really struggle to get the balance right. Maybe you could do a car specific engine / intercooling package.
Finally, what sort of power are you aiming for from the road race engine package?
10-21-2013, 08:57 AM
#73
Liking two injectors per blower rather than meth! Much safesr option and less risk of a pump failure or tank running out destroying the whole engine. Can you get different nozzels on injectors to give a finer mist?
10-21-2013, 09:11 AM
#74
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On this crate engine I want solid 1000hp at the flywheel.
My centri thoughts might be crazy, but watching these cars it seems like it might work. With my 600hp NA crate engine (645-660 flywheel) they have enough power that they are using second gear on autocross tracks most times to bog the engine. On road course stuff they finally use WOT in the top of second, at that point minor boost would be coming and the bottom of third would gain psi on the shift because the blower speed would not change on the shift. It should make hp keep climbing as the tires could handle it. Might not work.....
Kurt
My centri thoughts might be crazy, but watching these cars it seems like it might work. With my 600hp NA crate engine (645-660 flywheel) they have enough power that they are using second gear on autocross tracks most times to bog the engine. On road course stuff they finally use WOT in the top of second, at that point minor boost would be coming and the bottom of third would gain psi on the shift because the blower speed would not change on the shift. It should make hp keep climbing as the tires could handle it. Might not work.....
Kurt
10-21-2013, 06:07 PM
#76
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I believe they would be failure prone on PT cars. The serpentine belt allows the belt slip on gear change that helps the supercharger live. When I have used cogged belts they have ripped the teeth off on gear change often. I doubt a powerful car could run a 30 minute session on one belt.
Kurt
Kurt
10-22-2013, 08:21 AM
#77
Kurt, what's your feeling on the intercooler used on the whipple 4.0? Do you think it's up to keeping the IATs down longer high load periods? Also what are you thinking of using as the low temp radiator? Just thinking you are going to need something pretty big to keep the intercooler from heat soaking.
Also what do you plan on running for the intake? I have been looking at the weistec MB supercharger packages. Really like their twin entry setup! Should vastly reduce inlet restrictions.
Also what do you plan on running for the intake? I have been looking at the weistec MB supercharger packages. Really like their twin entry setup! Should vastly reduce inlet restrictions.
10-22-2013, 10:39 AM
#78
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The 4.0 intercooler has good water flow so I have high hopes that it will work well. The long pull problems are normally connected to water flow issues, cooling the water will be my next issue. If I can get the engine working good on dyno I will start working on the in car issues.
On the intake I have not decided, but the 2.9 had excess vacuum so this one should be worse. I have a few ideas on twin set ups, but testing will help me decide the right direction.
Kurt
On the intake I have not decided, but the 2.9 had excess vacuum so this one should be worse. I have a few ideas on twin set ups, but testing will help me decide the right direction.
Kurt
Kurt, what's your feeling on the intercooler used on the whipple 4.0? Do you think it's up to keeping the IATs down longer high load periods? Also what are you thinking of using as the low temp radiator? Just thinking you are going to need something pretty big to keep the intercooler from heat soaking.
Also what do you plan on running for the intake? I have been looking at the weistec MB supercharger packages. Really like their twin entry se tup! Should vastly reduce inlet restrictions.
Also what do you plan on running for the intake? I have been looking at the weistec MB supercharger packages. Really like their twin entry se tup! Should vastly reduce inlet restrictions.
10-23-2013, 01:05 PM
#79
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I machined the intercooler for -12 fittings, flow at 10PSI went from 9.5 gallons per minute as delivered to 20 GPM! Looks like this intercooler can get me where I want to go!
Kurt
Kurt
10-23-2013, 01:13 PM
#80
Kurt what is the target flow for the intercooler? Also at what temp will the water be at on the dyno? Will you be soak testing the chargecooler so you can alter the tune for all intake temps? I hear this is what OEMs do to ensure hot climates won't blow engines. Think they just turn off the chargecooler pumps. Guess you could keep doing power runs but with only a limited supply of water and allow it to warm up nice and gradually.