Critique this 408 turbo build please
12-11-2013, 12:44 AM
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Critique this 408 turbo build please So I've been kicking around this build for sometime now and like anything else its gone a couple different directions. Though I think I'm at a point where I need to confirm my thoughts before jumping in.
I bought a 67 El Camino a few months ago and the plan at the time was to drop a NA 408 into the car in front of a T56 magnum I already had. My plan then and now was to build a 650-700hp engine (at the crank) and the tremec should take that with no problems. Nothing over the top with this one. Street car with some 1/4 drag and auto cross on occasion. More of a fun street car than a track car for sure. I have an LQ4 just waiting to be machined.
After talking with a couple friends at MSD these past couple weeks, I've decided to try their Atomic LS on a turbo. This is a fairly new release for them and I'd like to give it a shot and see if I can prove their concept. So, heres what I'm looking at;
Engine- LQ4 stroked to 408
Lunati stroker kit (never used a Lunati rotating assembly and wanted to give them a try) Don't have any specific kit to reference at this stage but its moot at this point. Will use their cam of their choosing as well to fit the application.
Truck manifolds - have a set already ceramic coated and v-banded up!
Turbo - have looked at a few and guessing a Garrett GT3788R, 88mm .72ar turbo fits my needs. Though this is where I get into a little trouble as I'm unsure if this is adequate or overkill.
Heads - stuck a bit here as well. If I had a ton of extra cash, I'd just have WCCH cnc me a set based on the application and be done with it. But looking to get outside my comfort zone here and try something else. I had my eye on all sorts of heads from 215cc to 230cc. I was leaning more 215cc for its better street manners, but its a turbo. Should I go ahead and make the step up to 230? My guess is yes.
Intake - uncertain here as well, but I have a friend with a FAST 102mm intake and throttle body. Again, unsure if this is just right, or too big. I could also tear the Edelbrock ProFlo XT off my Chevelle, but I know that's definitely overkill.
Fuel delivery - I have a Tanks Inc EFI tank and will use the Aeromotive Stealth in tank pump. Should be good up to that 700hp threshold.
Misc - I'll use ARP through out. I'm a Turbosmart kind of guy and love their BOV, wastegate and their boost controller, but am willing to try other options here as well.
Pick it apart. Am I right on, or making some obvious mistakes? I've had my eye on that Atomic LS for awhile now and wanted to use it on an NA motor to see how I'd like not having tuning capabilities but the release of the boosted software just has me all tied up thinking of building another turbo car! I know there will be some strong opinions to the negative on the Atomic, and I share them but am willing to try something new to see if its a viable option. Plus if I an get my wife into this one and she enjoys it, it makes my life 1000% easier.
So lets hear it! Thumbs up or thumbs down?
I bought a 67 El Camino a few months ago and the plan at the time was to drop a NA 408 into the car in front of a T56 magnum I already had. My plan then and now was to build a 650-700hp engine (at the crank) and the tremec should take that with no problems. Nothing over the top with this one. Street car with some 1/4 drag and auto cross on occasion. More of a fun street car than a track car for sure. I have an LQ4 just waiting to be machined.
After talking with a couple friends at MSD these past couple weeks, I've decided to try their Atomic LS on a turbo. This is a fairly new release for them and I'd like to give it a shot and see if I can prove their concept. So, heres what I'm looking at;
Engine- LQ4 stroked to 408
Lunati stroker kit (never used a Lunati rotating assembly and wanted to give them a try) Don't have any specific kit to reference at this stage but its moot at this point. Will use their cam of their choosing as well to fit the application.
Truck manifolds - have a set already ceramic coated and v-banded up!
Turbo - have looked at a few and guessing a Garrett GT3788R, 88mm .72ar turbo fits my needs. Though this is where I get into a little trouble as I'm unsure if this is adequate or overkill.
Heads - stuck a bit here as well. If I had a ton of extra cash, I'd just have WCCH cnc me a set based on the application and be done with it. But looking to get outside my comfort zone here and try something else. I had my eye on all sorts of heads from 215cc to 230cc. I was leaning more 215cc for its better street manners, but its a turbo. Should I go ahead and make the step up to 230? My guess is yes.
Intake - uncertain here as well, but I have a friend with a FAST 102mm intake and throttle body. Again, unsure if this is just right, or too big. I could also tear the Edelbrock ProFlo XT off my Chevelle, but I know that's definitely overkill.
Fuel delivery - I have a Tanks Inc EFI tank and will use the Aeromotive Stealth in tank pump. Should be good up to that 700hp threshold.
Misc - I'll use ARP through out. I'm a Turbosmart kind of guy and love their BOV, wastegate and their boost controller, but am willing to try other options here as well.
Pick it apart. Am I right on, or making some obvious mistakes? I've had my eye on that Atomic LS for awhile now and wanted to use it on an NA motor to see how I'd like not having tuning capabilities but the release of the boosted software just has me all tied up thinking of building another turbo car! I know there will be some strong opinions to the negative on the Atomic, and I share them but am willing to try something new to see if its a viable option. Plus if I an get my wife into this one and she enjoys it, it makes my life 1000% easier.
So lets hear it! Thumbs up or thumbs down?
12-12-2013, 06:24 PM
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I kind of figured I'd get a cool response with this. Hell I don't know if the MSD Atomic LS will support boost and if it can pull the full potential from a motor with literally no tuning abilities.
Will know by mid summer what the numbers tell me!
Will know by mid summer what the numbers tell me!
12-13-2013, 03:01 AM
#3
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Engine...no issues as long as the pistons etc are intended for boosted use.
Cam, stick with something small and all will be well.
Turbo, go with something like a proven Borg Warner single. It will be cheaper and easier to install ( Garrett requires oil and water, BW just oil. )
Heads, either will be more than adequate for 700hp. In fact so would stock heads. First aftermarket heads I ever used were the Edelbrock 215's, and have to say they were great.
Intake...stock LS6 works great. FAST would be fine too, but any TB larger than stock is serious overkill and almost pointless.
Fuel, The Stealth pump may or may not do it. HP numbers vary so much dyno to dyno etc...hard to say. But ensure your wiring is up to the job, as all those type of pumps draw huge amounts of current. Also keep fuel pressure below 70psi or so, as flow from all those pumps drops off dramatically after that
Turbosmart make great product.
As for MSD Atomic. No idea, heard nothing about it. One thing is for sure, do not over-estimate terms like "self tuning, no laptop required"
That's a huge claim to make, and has a whole pile of **** ready to fall on top of it.
IMO Every ecu out there needs tuned by a competent person to not only ensure it is safe, but tuned properly. Even any self tuning options heavily rely on user input to ensure all the parameters it needs to work within are correct.
You may be able to plug it all in and the engine will run fairly well. But no way in hell would I trust it to do everything without having it fully checked out to ensure it is safe.
But ultimately you will need to choose a system that your local tuner is well versed in using and happy to use so you can get the best from the car. And also a system you know you can get good support for.
Cam, stick with something small and all will be well.
Turbo, go with something like a proven Borg Warner single. It will be cheaper and easier to install ( Garrett requires oil and water, BW just oil. )
Heads, either will be more than adequate for 700hp. In fact so would stock heads. First aftermarket heads I ever used were the Edelbrock 215's, and have to say they were great.
Intake...stock LS6 works great. FAST would be fine too, but any TB larger than stock is serious overkill and almost pointless.
Fuel, The Stealth pump may or may not do it. HP numbers vary so much dyno to dyno etc...hard to say. But ensure your wiring is up to the job, as all those type of pumps draw huge amounts of current. Also keep fuel pressure below 70psi or so, as flow from all those pumps drops off dramatically after that
Turbosmart make great product.
As for MSD Atomic. No idea, heard nothing about it. One thing is for sure, do not over-estimate terms like "self tuning, no laptop required"
That's a huge claim to make, and has a whole pile of **** ready to fall on top of it.
IMO Every ecu out there needs tuned by a competent person to not only ensure it is safe, but tuned properly. Even any self tuning options heavily rely on user input to ensure all the parameters it needs to work within are correct.
You may be able to plug it all in and the engine will run fairly well. But no way in hell would I trust it to do everything without having it fully checked out to ensure it is safe.
But ultimately you will need to choose a system that your local tuner is well versed in using and happy to use so you can get the best from the car. And also a system you know you can get good support for.
12-13-2013, 07:12 PM
#4
Can the el camino put that power to the ground? It'll be a burnout machine no doubt. A lot of stock parts from various cars/trucks can hold that just as good as more expensive aftermarket.
Engine: 408 will be fine, be sure to stud the crank and heads. LS9 headgasket is perfect. Rotating assembly: Lunati makes good stuff, not the best but not Scat either LOL. Turbos are easier on the crank than blowers and nitrous. Stock crank can easily hold that power under turbo. H beam rods will be fine at that power, don't use race bearings, get good rod bolts.
For your turbo, there's a good amount of savings if you ditch the Garrett for a BW or Precision snail. But yes, the 37R or 40R will get the power you are looking for.
Engine: 408 will be fine, be sure to stud the crank and heads. LS9 headgasket is perfect. Rotating assembly: Lunati makes good stuff, not the best but not Scat either LOL. Turbos are easier on the crank than blowers and nitrous. Stock crank can easily hold that power under turbo. H beam rods will be fine at that power, don't use race bearings, get good rod bolts.
For your turbo, there's a good amount of savings if you ditch the Garrett for a BW or Precision snail. But yes, the 37R or 40R will get the power you are looking for.
12-13-2013, 09:28 PM
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Yup. The Atomic LS is where I'm really stuck. Other than the initial info, there is no tuning. And for someone who only knows his laptop and HP tuners, its a bit daunting. Its so new, no one I know has had it on a boosted application. NA? No worries. Boosted is the big unknown and I'll be honest, its got me eager to give it a shot and see what its worth.
12-14-2013, 05:06 AM
#6
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To be fair...eager would not be a term I would use on a totally unknown system
Worth a shot ? if it's all free yes. Otherwise I'd tend to go with something tried and tested. And also where the tuning software is fully viewable before purchase, and also a full list of the ecu's capabilities to see if it is even suitable for your application.
Worth a shot ? if it's all free yes. Otherwise I'd tend to go with something tried and tested. And also where the tuning software is fully viewable before purchase, and also a full list of the ecu's capabilities to see if it is even suitable for your application.
12-14-2013, 10:20 PM
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I'm eager! I enjoy trying new things. Heck if I wanted something safe, I'd build a SBC!
You've hit on the questions I've got in using a self learning unit. Seems as though the NA stuff works really well. Is it a good solution on the boosted side? That's the big question!
Looks as though my build will put the engine done around April and should be drivable in early June. Looking forward to it and getting some dyno time to see what the results are.
You've hit on the questions I've got in using a self learning unit. Seems as though the NA stuff works really well. Is it a good solution on the boosted side? That's the big question!
Looks as though my build will put the engine done around April and should be drivable in early June. Looking forward to it and getting some dyno time to see what the results are.
