LLLosingit

iTrader: (4)

Actually they are badass and can adjust fuel on the fly and more than keep up. This isn't the 80's, Todays computer processors react in milliseconds.
The Holley system can also do it and it can also pull timing just as fast and several other changes if you want it to.....yes they are that good...after all it's not the 80's anymore!

Per Danny Cabral... The ECU has an OEM processor used in PCMs, so it's extremely fast.
Also, the data logger can be set to record up to 100 frames per second.

Vcious04

iTrader: (16)

So basically with that theory the Atomic system can predict fueling for the 1st time before it gets into boost??? Maybe I am missing something.

Typically when tuning you start out at low boost levels and limit the timing/rpm until you have it mapped out where it won't go lean or overly rich at higher rpms/boost.

Does this Atomic setup (someone who as actually used it) give the user instructions warning that a low rev limit will be set a X amount for calibration and will take several more WOT attempts to dial it in?

mike13

iTrader: (27)

The new systems are way more user friendly than anything in the past and it is much easier for someone to use the features of the systems.

I still don't believe there is a system that gets you close with a base tune. Let me explain, how can it? just to many variables and our expectations are all different.

What these systems will do is let you start with a good base tune and if you do your homework and take the time to learn and understand the different tables and how they affect each other plus know basic principles of a 4 stroke engine you should be able to do a decent job of getting the car to run well.

LLLosingit

iTrader: (4)

I can't speak for the other systems but the Holley system uses the wide band to hit the target AFR you program into it and it adjusts the fuel table. (that's really the only self learning aspect) You preset timing by rpm and boost so you would start out with safe timing levels and creep up on your target just as you would on any engine.

Watch this video and you will see how it works.

rpturbo

iTrader: (47)

I agree with above. The Holley is neat, and can do what is shown above. Other than that, everything else is up to you. If it was super easy, they wouldn't have all kinds of training courses. I believe they have 3 or 4 trainings. Granted, it is easier than HPT, but for the rest of these systems, I have heard bad things about all of them in one aspect or another. If you go to trainings, and are around tuners and shops who install all of these, you will hear stories. Otherwise, you really don't, because as a shop, your not going to bash a product when they are selling it, or multiples of them, and take a chance of things getting out of control. They may steer you toward something else, but I doubt they would really refuse to sell you something.

Brian Hoss

Someone figured out it worked on the dyno.

http://onthedyno.com/GM-LS-motor/art...une-turbo-ls3/

gsteele

These test results have already been linked to earlier and reacted to. I am going to guess that you are making a point here that you perceive some people do not understand. What would that point be?

Pekka_Perkeles

Is this self-tuning (quotes from the article):

- We then upped the timing to a total of 30 degrees
- Atomic system required that we add timing to a total of 20 degrees

Maybe not.

On the other hand, how does the system detect if there's a Meth system? I guess it doesn't, but who cares. :-)

Anyway, for stock LS3 with low-pressure turbo, you can get mail order tunes as well. Hehe.. And I guess same applies with any aftermarket system.

I'd say the biggest problem with these "self-tuning" systems is the inability to detect if something is wrong. Very often when tuning cars there are either mechanical or electrical problems. Such as fuel pressure. Now, "self-tuning" systems of course try to compensate these problems, but that's not the right way to solve these.

enginjoe

iTrader: (11)

From what I've seen, they monitor fuel pressure, knock, boost pressure and AFR. I think they have it covered.

Pekka_Perkeles

Doesn't surprise.

But they do not monitor weak valve springs or exhaust leaks, as an example.

Way too often there are "installation errors" that spoil the tuning session.

In other words: tuning is not just to get the AFR right. Wrong spark plugs, wrong gap, noisy valvetrain, etc, the list is almost endless.

Pekka_Perkeles

Some other comments:

- how does it detect false knock
- how does it tune part throttle timing maps

The latter one is interesting, since MBT occurs before knock limit. :-)

Anyway, I think that self-tuning systems are nice and they are more than welcome.

Slowhawk

iTrader: (12)

I think they have some great setup's out there. You have they option of spending a few grand and spend some time tuning,learning to get your own car right. Or if you already have a factory system and a good tuner near by you can spend less than a grand and have them tune it.

Pekka_Perkeles

And that's not all: can you live without a dyno graph!?!?!

Ok, of course "self-tuning" system can visit a dyno as well.

Just kidding.

soundengineer

iTrader: (16)

No system is Self Tuning
they all still require you to input some info to get a "Base" setup to get started...

one good thing, is that Computer processing speed has greatly increased over the years, making fueling and spark changes more accurate than they have ever been.

as an example.. with the Holley EFI, it can process the data so fast that it can correct on the fly and protect your engine from harm caused by not enough fuel.

I personally have seen it save an engine from burning up due to a fuel pump that was failing.

if your Fuel table is not right, the Holley can correct on the fly in an instant...

I'm sure the MSD thing uses a similar approach,
but the Holley ECU uses PID terms to correct the fueling and predictive corrections to add to the fuel table before it gets to the next cell.

so if its lean, it not only adds fuel to the exact cell its in, but it also add some to the cells around it.
if it gets to the next cell and that cell is still lean, it adds more, if its ok, then it leaves it alone, if it is rich it will pull a little out.
it continues to do this until all the rich/lean spots are leveled out.

it then uses its short term corrections and a second set of calculations to determine if it should permanently change the cells it has been to.

the key to all of this is the Look ahead algorithm...it doesnt just put in fuel and hope its right and correct it after...it thinks ahead

by doing this... its reasonably safe even when the fueling is WAY off.

a tuner can only make an educated guess before you do a pull thru the operating range..
but the ECU can look at each cell and make an educated correction to the next cell it is headed towards...and it can do it on the fly, thousands of times per second.


for the most part.. it eliminates issues caused by improper fueling as long as you input the proper desired AFR.

the only part to worry about is if you have too much or too little spark (yes...too little spark can hurt stuff too)

when somebody starts coming up with a way to measure cylinder pressures on the fly and make spark corrections based on them...then we can start talking about a truly self tuning box..LOL

enginjoe

iTrader: (11)

I will have well over 2 grand into tuning the SS over the years because as I added mods, I had to change the tune. (once for cam and headers, once for turbo kit, once for new built motor and then one more for Huron speed turbo kit). If you are just going to tune once, then cost can be an object, but if you are going to mod, this type of thing is ideal for someone like me who can learn to tune, but doesn't want to.

Pekka_Perkeles

Maybe, but just remember to make rather small changes to your mechanical setup. It'll be easier for the computer.

Meanwhile, I'm eagerly waiting to a comparison between different self-tuning EFI's with non-stock engines (boosted or not). It seems that these systems are becoming more and more popular, so why not compare them. So which maganzine does it first? :-)

stevieturbo

To be fair, almost any half decent ecu in the past 10-15 years has had more than enough processing speed to accomplish it.

And the processor could be as fast as anything....the the lambda sensor response itself by comparison is a complete slug and as you say, why any system needs a good starting point, which in the case of thee so called "self tuning" setups is provided by a tuner already.
Whether that's what people perceive to be a tuner, or the manufacturer...same odds.
If anything it's probably more improvements in making use of lambda sensors themselves that's helping matters.

And as said countless times and as Pekka is saying, placing huge reliance on closed loop fueling to try and save an engine if problems occur is crazy and a poor way to do it.
It is certainly one avenue, but it should never be the only one as you then need to allow it huge fuel trims to accomplish any saving if that's your only means of protection

I think we're still a good way off a proper self tuning system, until some sort of cylinder pressure or coil sensing feedback relating to what's happening in the chamber can be utilised...then proper self tuning is far away.

And as already mentioned, basic fuel and spark control are just that, there's a lot more to a fully functional engine package than those two things and getting those right will require "tuner" input

LLLosingit

iTrader: (4)

I think everyone here agrees there isn't a true self tune option out there but for quite a few of us these systems are a worthwhile investment and make tuning much easier than getting a factory system to work for what we are doing. I don't know about you but me and most of my friends are very capable of diagnosing both mechanical and electrical problems. We don't grab a credit card and call a wrecker when our **** breaks, We fix it ourselves. The only thing that stops me from building my own engines is the machine work involved, I don't have deep pockets and the tools for that kind of work are rather expensive, I do everything else myself.
If you don't know how to work on your own car then yes tuning is best left to the professionals but for those that do then these systems are just what's needed.
Also keep in mind that more failures happen after you leave the tuner then happen while the car is being tuned, You can't carry a tuner with you everywhere you go but with these systems you can monitor/adjust/diagnose those problems just about anywhere.

The Holley systems has many safeguards that can be preset that would save your engine that a stock computer can't do when a tuner is not around to catch it or when it's in the middle of a pull and he doesn't catch it in time. Those also work while you're trying to tune it yourself. Low fuel pressure, low oil pressure, To much boost, To hot and so on. Run out of meth/water in your= Low Reservoir Warning and compensate.
It's a computer it only does what you tell it what to do and if you don't know what to tell it then you shouldn't even try.

I'll admit that a tuner (if he knows the system) can probably do a better job than me at least in the short term. In the long term I think I can get more out of it because I'll be the one behind the wheel and take the time to make the fine adjustments that will be needed after the car is off the dyno.

LLLosingit

iTrader: (4)

Please give me some examples?
These engines are basically the same as when they were invented over a 100 years ago. I remember the days when we had points in the distributor and tune consisted of setting them and getting the timing right. Adjust float levels, Jetting and accelerator pumps/arm/squirters then read the plugs....and they ran hard!
A tune today is basically the same except you use a computer to make the adjustments. It's easier to do but also easier to screw it up

Brian Hoss

I really dislike the OP use of self tuning. Its self learning. You do have to input some basic info and it appears as though there is some additional adjustability. The meth injection is an excellent question. Wonder if they have addressed that yet? Guess its something to ask next time I call them.