Hank Peabody

iTrader: (2)

I had been running an ebay intercooler, the popular on here 4x24x12 or whatever it is, and it worked great, never got over 130* with it in 100* heat for long pulls. Usually stayed under 120*. I never ran any over 12-13 lbs of boost. Its an L92 headed 6.0 with a PT76.

I took the intercooler off and plan to try just running alcohol/water injection since I run such low boost.

I just ran it up the street with no intercooler for the first time. First pull is with no injection and second is with a single M15 spraying about 60/40 alcohol/water.

Without water/alcohol
Start 120* -> 214* intake temps after a 6 second pull 8# boost.
With M15 water/alcohol
Start 128* -> 166* -> 107* (water starts) -> 135* after 6 seconds 9# boost.


The ebay intercoolers work unbelievably well for the low cost! The single M15 nozzle knocks 80* off the temps. Not sure how much hitting the sensor with it affects it but I would assume the water/alcohol is pretty much evaporating coming out of the nozzle with over 200* air hitting it. That water/alcohol also resulted in a full 1# higher reading.

conan

iTrader: (5)

Good info there, thanks for sharing. Planning to put the cooler back on or leave it off ?

narx66gmc

Finally, someone tests it back to back!! Thank you for the info!!

Blackpanther99

iTrader: (8)

Sweet, good outcome for a real budget intercooler.

Hank Peabody

iTrader: (2)

Thanks, I almost didn't post, expected "wtf are you thinking, you're the same as Hitler" or something.

I plan on running it with no intercooler for a while and see how it does at the track compared to last year. The intercooler in front of the radiator makes the car run super hot on the highway, no amount of electric fans running full blast would keep it cool. It runs cool without the intercooler.

The other thing I like about it is the engine seems less finicky about the amount of alcohol/water sprayed into it if its being sprayed into hot air vs 120* intercooled air. With the intercooler my setup wouldn't take much alcohol/water before bogging. I like the idea of spraying lots of methanol into the engine so this will help with that too.

astross89

iTrader: (7)

Link to the intercooler please.

Guard dog

Keep the intercooler and spray meth after it.

oakley6575

iTrader: (3)

You are most likely just spraying water/meth on the sensor giving you false readings. Do you have pics of how your meth kit is plumed into your cold side?

white01ss

iTrader: (37)

Since the IATs drop when spaying the sensor must be downstream of the nozzle.

That 166* temp you measured is actually is much lower than that because our IAT sensors are very slow to react to temp changes (2-3s). Once the meth/water starts spraying it's a near immediate change in temperature.

Great info! Thanks for sharing.

yenkomike

iTrader: (2)

be careful running no intercooler as those high iat's will come in high gear just when the engine is loaded the most. my lq4 was running with no cooler and i was getting knock in high gear at 10# and 13* timing 93 fuel so i pulled 2*and added an intercooler and it loves it.

my only issue is with the meth you are only as safe as the cylinder that gets the liest meth the intercooler cooled the air equal to all cylinders the meth might not depending how it flows thru the intake . meth and water have weight and will stick to the outside turns a little more. JMHO.

Forcefed86

iTrader: (4)

I don't agree. Personally I think that the temp drop data is useless on all meth/water injection setups with the IAT down stream of the injection point. As mentioned the sensor is slow. Most importantly it's an inaccurate representation of the charge temps as a whole because of sensor saturation. The methanol will change to a gaseous state around 150, but water doesn't change states till you hit 212* or so. Still plenty of water getting on the IAT sensor I'd bet.

The big benefits are... zero pressure loss across the core, improved spool, and improved radiator flow. With the OP Running such low boost, pressure drop isn't a big issue with his setup. Other than improved air flow to the radiator, there's not much to be gained with the switch IMO. I do think he will be fine without the IC and plenty of methanol if boost is limited to 10lbs or so.

Performance wise, 100% meth always worked much better for me. I could spray twice the volume with out ign issues associated with water mixes at large volumes. With a progressive controller and 100% meth the OP could easily add another M15 nozzle. I'd sure be looking at a progressive controller and spraying much more meth if I were removing the IC all together. Since it's cheap and easy, I'd add another small nozzle pre-turbo as well.

white01ss

iTrader: (37)

(Thermodynamics class kicking in...)

You are right that the water phase change from water directly to vapor takes place at it's boiling point at 212*F or 100*C. But that's not how these injection systems work. Water/methanol wants to be a vapor unless it's really cold or very high pressure, but it is dependent on surface area.

If you take a gallon of water in a bucket and put it outside it will all eventually evaporate, but could take days or weeks with only 1 sq-ft of surface area. If you dump that gallon out on a flat surface it will evaporate very fast because of a large surface area. Evaporation takes energy away. The same principle is how our body keeps cool by sweating with water evaporating on our skin.

Water injection systems work by creating a huge amount of surface area by pushing it out a small nozzle under high pressure. When all those tiny water droplets turn into water vapor it takes heat away from the intake charge, but it is not entirely atomized until it gets into the combustion chamber which takes away more heat.

Great video I found about water injection:
How Water/Methanol Injection Works & How It Makes Horsepower in Gas Engines - YouTube

50/50 Water/Meth is not flammable, but 100% meth is. Spraying flammable fuel into a turbo or supercharger can make one hell of a backfire.

The water is what makes it safer on the engine by cooling the intake charge and decreasing combustion chamber temperatures. Turbo rally cars use water/meth to prevent damage during hours of full throttle racing. A max effort drag car may not need as much protection because of the short durations, but a mile car/top end car would want it. I'm keeping at least 40% water in my mix just to protect my engine. Could it make more power with 100% meth? IDK.

It would be cool if someone did a no injection, 50/50, and 100% meth mixture dyno shootout with the tuning pushing the limit of each setup.

Forcefed86

iTrader: (4)

Every kit I've worked on with the temp. sensor downstream of the injection point has given false “overly cool” readings. This proves the mixture is not instantly changing to a gaseous state. These readings should not be compared to a dry air charge. Aux injections main benefit is in the cylinder, not cooling the charge before it gets there. It's effect on the air charge as a whole is very little, though it does help some.

Depending on the charge temp, amount injected, distance between the nozzle and sensor IAT sensor readings will vary a ton. I've seen situations where the IAT sensor indicated cooler temps removing the intercooler and installing an aux inj. kit. Tuning with these readings can get you in trouble quick.

No arguing water is best solvent for dropping CC temperatures. Couple problems with water injected at high volumes though. It isn't flammable or compressible. So your displacing space that could have been filled with fuel and your drowning out the ignition system. Because of this 100% methanol always worked best for me. Most of the cheapo companies push 50/50 for liability reasons. That is why performance oriented companies like alkycontrol.com suggest 100% methanol. It has been proven time and again to work the best.

I’ve never had or heard of any backfire incidents either FWIW… That seems odd to me as I’m sure it could happen. As with all things fuel related, you need to be careful. Use the proper SS hoses and fitting when dealing with any flammable liquid. I have had one under hood fire due to a leaky pushlock fitting and 100% methanol. I got lucky and no major damage was done. Meth swells the O-rings on the push lock fittings.

forcd ind

iTrader: (7)

years ago I did a test before and after an IC'er, old D1B Procharger, 18# boost
I recorded 330 degs before, 190's after the IC'er
I rem the IC'er, and tried a pass, but shut it down @ the 1/8 when the temps hit 270
I never had a problem with the 190 deg temps, so I kind of used that as a benchmark for IAT's, obs. lower would be better
was the IC'er causing a rest. and maybe causing some of the high temps-maybe, but it wasn't losing more than a couple PSI of boost
not sure how you can actually meas. the cooling affects of meth that would be accurate, but obs. it does its job
on my test I was using blow thru carbs, some argue the fuel mixing with air before the cyls. helps, some argue it doesn't, not sure if any tests have proven one way or another
engine tune, fuel quality, air quality all go into it-even ducting the air inlet out of the engine comp. can help draw cooler air

white01ss

iTrader: (37)

Our IAT gauges weren't designed for read temperature changes so quickly so tune in a margin of safety.

Water's main job is to protect the engine by lowering heat and detonation. Water allows you to run more boost, compression, and timing whereas methanol is just another fuel. Why even bother with an injection system if your not using water? Just dump some methanol into the gas tank and be done.

This stuff isn't new. It's was used heavily by aircraft during WWII. The water is what makes it work!
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...ion_3feb44.pdf

http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.c...icle_info.html

Yes, yes, yes. Additionally, when methanol burns it's totally invisible. I poured some on the driveway and lit it up and all you could see was the liquid quickly disappearing but it was hot as ****. Freaky.

Hears a thread about the water/methanol debate. It's really, really ridiciously long.
http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/forc...ection-491444/

Forcefed86

iTrader: (4)

As I said, there are problems when injecting water. Unless you’re running an arc welder for an ignition system, most can’t physically burn the A/F charge saturated with enough water to make it beneficial over straight methanol.

Not saying there’s anything wrong with a 50/50 mix or even straight water. Water has it’s benefits and does improve performance. It is also more practical for many applications. If you can get by with 50/50, more power to you. From a “Max Performance” stand point though, 100% meth will come out on top for most setups. This is because you can run a ton of methanol without ignition issues. I tried everything from straight water to 50/50 through 90/10 mixes and everything in between. In the end I was able to use the largest nozzles and run more boost and timing with straight methanol. I replaced 30% of my WOT fuel with aux injection. I couldn’t even run 10% water at that amount without the ignition issues. Using smaller nozzles and diluting the methanol ALWAYS slowed me down.

There are many reasons not to “Just dump methanol into your gas tank”. You would need a methanol compatible fuel system with capability of supplying the extra fuel required to run methanol. This means larger fuel pump/lines/injectors etc… Not very practical. It’s also not convenient to premix fuels. It’s difficult to get the fuel to mix consistently.

We aren’t racing WW2 radial engines. I’ve seen and read everything you linked to long ago. Been using Alky injection for close to 12 years now so I am pretty familiar with what does and doesn’t work for the casual racer. Your arguing from a paper point of view and I understand that. As I said in my last post. Water is king for dropping heat, no argument there. As with most things racing though, it’s not that simple when we apply it to real world use.

white01ss

iTrader: (37)

My apologies to Hank for getting off topic. Thanks for posting up your results. To summarize your first post:

No intercooler @ 8 psi: Start 120* -> 214*
With ebay intercooler @ 12 psi: Start ??? -> 130* IAT (100* ambient)
No intercooler and 60/40 alky/water @ 9 psi: Start 128* -> 135* IAT

As long as you can keep the IATs under 140* or so you should be ok. Did you have any detonation @ 214*without intercooler? If you turn up your boost to 12-13 psi you may need to increase the injection to keep the detonation in check. The main thing is to prevent excess heat and detonation that can kill power and eventually destroy your engine. Your intercooler definitely did a good job but added restriction from all the pipe bends and intercooler passages. If removing the intercooler and keeping things cool via E85, methanol, or water injection then power should go up. Without an intercooler it would probably be best to continue with a 60/40 or 50/50 mix. I’d be curious to see if the cooling effect of 100% methanol is enough to keep the IATs down to a decent level.

Forcefed86, we do agree on a few things: J

* Water is not combustible, i.e. near infinite octane rating
* Water cools best (2x > methanol, 6x > gasoline)
* Water works best to fend of detonation
* Too much water can quench the flame
* In some setups 100% methanol can make the most power

My setup:
No intercooler and 50/50 alky/water @ 14 psi: TDB
Twin intercoolers @ 14 psi: Start 91* -> 91* - 111* range, 100* avg (78* ambient)
Twin intercoolers & 50/50 mix @ 14 psi: Start 82* -> 63* - 82* range, 68* avg (78* ambient)
Twin intercoolers & 50/50 mix @ 14 psi: Start 108* -> 90* - 100* range, 96* avg (95* ambient)

My setup typically does +25* with intercooler only and with 50/50 spaying it averages well below the starting temp. On the dyno I got ~20 whp with a 50/50 mix and lower IATs to boot. I bought the system mainly for summer time where the car can get heat soaked so bad that starting IATs creep up to the 120s*.

Reasons to run a 50/50 mix:

* Lowers IAT, EGT, and combustion temperatures
* No risk of backfire or additional source of fire in a collision
* Ease of tuning because no need to pull fuel out of the tune
* Gives the option of not running an intercooler
* Will not cause a dangerous lean condition during injection failure
* Saves money by using cheap distilled water

Reasons to inject 100% methanol:

* Is a fully a combustible fuel
* No worry of quenching the ignition process
* Has a slower flame travel that is gentle on pistons
* In some setups it may have the best power potential
* Has 3x the cooling effect of gasoline and 20% better than E85
* No mixing hassles

Latent Heat of Vaporization (For Reference):
Water: 2257 (kJ/kg), Methanol: 1100 (kJ/kg), E85: 920 (kJ/kg), Gasoline: 350 (kJ/kg)

More interesting reads:

http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f189...15/index4.html

http://forums.corral.net/forums/turb...-findings.html

http://www.nmradigital.com/2014/09/1...ter-injection/

"When you think of fire, quite often you think about water and how it is used to douse the flame, so it wouldn’t seem right that you could inject water into an internal combustion engine and have it work properly let alone help you make more horsepower. Injected in the proper amount, however, water, can be a powerful ally in the war against detonation, and enable you to increase ignition timing for improved power."

http://caddyinfo.com/wordpress/water...nol-injection/

“A mix of water and methanol provides a good compromise between cooling, fueling, and safety.”