No more needles!
01-18-2016, 11:57 PM
#41
Lol at the fan boys in here... No one is tearing the guy down or talking **** about it. It's been said a few times by other people they just want to know what it is and if/how it works. Doesn't matter if this was a summit brand or pro line. People with big $$$$ in their motors don't just believe the first thing they read on the web. You guys need to chill and see it from the consumers side for a second and get off martins sack.
At the end of the day this is a product with no testing and unknown material composition that is being sold as the best budget rocker options for the LS motor.. Facts>talk
Martin good on you for designing and putting yourself out there. I hope this really is the miracle solution as it is priced right. For what it's worth you could have avoided all this crap with a little pre release testing instead of claims. Just my .02
At the end of the day this is a product with no testing and unknown material composition that is being sold as the best budget rocker options for the LS motor.. Facts>talk
Martin good on you for designing and putting yourself out there. I hope this really is the miracle solution as it is priced right. For what it's worth you could have avoided all this crap with a little pre release testing instead of claims. Just my .02
Last edited by oscs; 01-19-2016 at 12:44 AM.
01-19-2016, 06:17 AM
#42
Enough with the negative comments and feedback. I understand people's concerns about 'proprietary material' and the lack of full disclosure, but once it was stated that they would not release the information, either accept it, or walk away.
If you are interested in the product, then reach out to Martin and he will be happy to discuss any details that he is allowed to discuss.
If you are interested in the product, then reach out to Martin and he will be happy to discuss any details that he is allowed to discuss.
01-19-2016, 11:35 AM
#45
My question: so the alloy is proprietary. I get that to an extent, but not knowing the "type" so to speak raises questions.
For myself, it's "What kind of mileage / longevity could one expect from a bushing such as this?"
I see the bronze part there, and all are somewhat different. Just look at some head manufacturers valve guides. Some wear out rather fast with stock rockers, some do just fine (Mast as an example)
Just curious how the testing went with these, what lifts and spring pressure they'd be good for, and of course, expected longevity.
Thanks.
For myself, it's "What kind of mileage / longevity could one expect from a bushing such as this?"
I see the bronze part there, and all are somewhat different. Just look at some head manufacturers valve guides. Some wear out rather fast with stock rockers, some do just fine (Mast as an example)
Just curious how the testing went with these, what lifts and spring pressure they'd be good for, and of course, expected longevity.
Thanks.
01-19-2016, 01:59 PM
#46
6600 rpm clutch dump of death Administrator
Just my idle speculation, but my guess would be the bushing is Oilite or something similar in composition, much like you see in an Isky Ez-Roll lifter.
https://www.oilite.com/
https://www.oilite.com/
01-22-2016, 12:21 PM
#53
Teching In
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Martin,
You're absolutely right, and I somewhat understand the logic behind bits and pieces of your logic.
I only ask because when a new product comes to market, released by a new vendor (or ANY manufacturer for that matter), claims to have a unicorn product, for lack of a better phrase, at half the cost of the competition and goes on to tout "proprietary" design/parts, but then refuses to disclose if they even have a patent pending..... Well, I'm thinking you can understand my lack of willingness to install these into a $15k+ high performance engine.
You failed to indicate if you have any patent pending, so it's obvious whatever you have is far from proven.
Not trying to thread crap. I love the fact that you're developing a product for a platform that still thrives after nearly two decades on the market. I just wish there was a little transparency for the potential client base.
You're absolutely right, and I somewhat understand the logic behind bits and pieces of your logic.
I only ask because when a new product comes to market, released by a new vendor (or ANY manufacturer for that matter), claims to have a unicorn product, for lack of a better phrase, at half the cost of the competition and goes on to tout "proprietary" design/parts, but then refuses to disclose if they even have a patent pending..... Well, I'm thinking you can understand my lack of willingness to install these into a $15k+ high performance engine.
You failed to indicate if you have any patent pending, so it's obvious whatever you have is far from proven.
Not trying to thread crap. I love the fact that you're developing a product for a platform that still thrives after nearly two decades on the market. I just wish there was a little transparency for the potential client base.
The picture posted answers the question I had asked... they appear to be some sort of bronze. That's what I had assumed, but you know how assumptions are. I'm not sure that you can patent something like this, is it a new design? If it's a new material I didn't think they could typically be patented, but I may be wrong.
01-25-2016, 01:13 PM
#60
6600 rpm clutch dump of death Administrator
I'm guessing a lot of folks have not seen motors other than an LS series engine. GM did things a little differently than many other OE's. They went with roller bearings many other OE's do not follow this practice.
With shaft rockers you will often find bronze inserts in the rocker arm go look at factory or aftermarket rockers from Dove, Harland Sharp, or Dvorak and look at Porsche, Ford FE, Dodge B1, Hemi or plenty of industrial diesel engines.
In the diesel world bearings like this are typically C93200 alloy or 80-10-10 SAE C93700 phosphor bronze. There are lots a different alloys out there for bearings. It just depends on load, speed, pressure and temp. Just to give you an idea, here are all the typical materials someone like Applied or Motion Industries will have for a bushing style bearing like this.
Aluminum
BMP Teflon Composite
BMT Teflon Composite Bronze
Bronze C93200 (SAE 660)
Bronze Oil Impregnated (SAE 841)
BU Coiled Steel Backing
Delrin
DU Self-Lubricating
DU B Self-Lubricating
Duralon
DX Prelubricated
Fiberglide Lined
Filament Wound
Gar-Fil Self-Lubricating
Gar-Max Self-Lubricating
Glass-Filled Teflon
Glycodur F
JLON 4200 (PTFE)
JLON 5500 (PTFE)
JLON 7000 (PTFE)
Nylatron GS
Nylon
Permaglide Liner w/ Bronze Backing
Permaglide Liner w/ Lube Pockets, Steel Backing
Permaglide Liner w/ Steel Backing
Powdered Metal SAE 841 Bronze
PTFE Based Metal Polymer
PTFE BJ4
PTFE BJ5
Rulon 641
Rulon CJ
Sintered Bronze Oil-Impregnate
Soft Steel Stainless Steel
TeflonŽ Filled Acetal
TeflonŽ Filled Polymer
Thermoplastic Based Metal Polymer
Vespel
Roller bearings require better shaft material with better treatment, they can also live on less lubrication than bronze. The key to bronze is adequate lubrication, proper clearance, and enough surface area. Rocker ***** and bronze bushing will also increase oil temp to some extent but probably not enough for the average person to notice.
So the question on this design will be, is the bronze alloy up to the load, is surface area and lubrication up to the task. Probably not rocket science just a few simple calcs.
With shaft rockers you will often find bronze inserts in the rocker arm go look at factory or aftermarket rockers from Dove, Harland Sharp, or Dvorak and look at Porsche, Ford FE, Dodge B1, Hemi or plenty of industrial diesel engines.
In the diesel world bearings like this are typically C93200 alloy or 80-10-10 SAE C93700 phosphor bronze. There are lots a different alloys out there for bearings. It just depends on load, speed, pressure and temp. Just to give you an idea, here are all the typical materials someone like Applied or Motion Industries will have for a bushing style bearing like this.
Aluminum
BMP Teflon Composite
BMT Teflon Composite Bronze
Bronze C93200 (SAE 660)
Bronze Oil Impregnated (SAE 841)
BU Coiled Steel Backing
Delrin
DU Self-Lubricating
DU B Self-Lubricating
Duralon
DX Prelubricated
Fiberglide Lined
Filament Wound
Gar-Fil Self-Lubricating
Gar-Max Self-Lubricating
Glass-Filled Teflon
Glycodur F
JLON 4200 (PTFE)
JLON 5500 (PTFE)
JLON 7000 (PTFE)
Nylatron GS
Nylon
Permaglide Liner w/ Bronze Backing
Permaglide Liner w/ Lube Pockets, Steel Backing
Permaglide Liner w/ Steel Backing
Powdered Metal SAE 841 Bronze
PTFE Based Metal Polymer
PTFE BJ4
PTFE BJ5
Rulon 641
Rulon CJ
Sintered Bronze Oil-Impregnate
Soft Steel Stainless Steel
TeflonŽ Filled Acetal
TeflonŽ Filled Polymer
Thermoplastic Based Metal Polymer
Vespel
Roller bearings require better shaft material with better treatment, they can also live on less lubrication than bronze. The key to bronze is adequate lubrication, proper clearance, and enough surface area. Rocker ***** and bronze bushing will also increase oil temp to some extent but probably not enough for the average person to notice.
So the question on this design will be, is the bronze alloy up to the load, is surface area and lubrication up to the task. Probably not rocket science just a few simple calcs.