97 S10 with 6.0, 224 Isky JFR cam, S482 turbo, Powerglide, 9" rear
03-26-2017, 07:18 PM
#121
No offense taken. And your right, I have no experience in tuning these or any computer controlled system. I also know that the dyno tune will not be an end all for it and I will have to learn it. I have posted in the Texas forums asking for help with no luck. So my only option is to try and learn what I can while the tuner works on it. I am hoping that he can give me a lesson or two while its there. Some pointers I guess.
03-26-2017, 08:35 PM
#123
I need to look for those videos since I have no clue how to do it. Ive idled it a few times and the drive today were on auto tune. I see it change fuel but not sure what else its doing. When I open the throttle too quick, and its really not that fast, it goes full lean and falls flat.
03-26-2017, 08:50 PM
#124
Watching a video now. He is going through basic settings right now and he mentioned that with speed density it uses the MAP for when the throttle is opened and it can cause a lag in response. Which is what I have. He said to use the Alpha-N setting to use TPS. I guess this couldn't hurt to try out. Of course I am not running a MAF so I was running in speed density. unless I need to run speed density due to the turbo and what it does to the MAP.
Last edited by Taxman20; 03-26-2017 at 08:56 PM.
03-27-2017, 08:58 AM
#125
You don’t want to fart around with Alpha-N. Don’t’ worry about it leaning when you blip the throttle at this point. You want to get the VE table semi dialed in first. 80% of the work is on the VE table. It’s RPM VS MAP based.
Pull up VE table. You can see the active cells with the engine running. Blip the throttle and you can follow which cells are actively sending fuel to the engine.
Watch the WB02 an as you blip the throttle. Adjust the cells that are active in the lean spot. Simply highlight the cells and use the these arrow keys “ < >” to add or remove fuel by 1 point. I’d highlight a large group all around the area and add 5 points. Then blip throttle again and watch 02.
Once you have it semi dialed in, go to the AFR map. This tells the ECU what your desired AFR target is.. Set it up about like this. Areas above 100kpa are your in boost AFR, below will be light load and cruise.
Then Flip on the auto tune. Free rev the engine slowly at 1000, 1500, 2000, 3000, 3500 and hold it at each RPM a good 3-4 seconds. It should adjust the map to your AFR MAP table. Then go for a cruise. Use small throttle movements until the system can learn. You’ll be able to see a small representation of the VE table and how much of it has changed on the auto tune screen. (green and yellow cells in the table to the right in pic below) For major changes the cells will turn red. Once you stop seeing red it means its making smaller changes and your tune is close.
You should be able to get it pretty well dialed in on the VE table alone. Blipping the throttle hard may still cause slight lean areas. Adjust the acceleration enrichment fuel to correct it. It acts like a carb squirter and dumps in an extra load of fuel based on TPS/MAP tables.
Should get you to the point you could easily drive it to a tuner anyway. Good luck!
Pull up VE table. You can see the active cells with the engine running. Blip the throttle and you can follow which cells are actively sending fuel to the engine.
Watch the WB02 an as you blip the throttle. Adjust the cells that are active in the lean spot. Simply highlight the cells and use the these arrow keys “ < >” to add or remove fuel by 1 point. I’d highlight a large group all around the area and add 5 points. Then blip throttle again and watch 02.
Once you have it semi dialed in, go to the AFR map. This tells the ECU what your desired AFR target is.. Set it up about like this. Areas above 100kpa are your in boost AFR, below will be light load and cruise.
Then Flip on the auto tune. Free rev the engine slowly at 1000, 1500, 2000, 3000, 3500 and hold it at each RPM a good 3-4 seconds. It should adjust the map to your AFR MAP table. Then go for a cruise. Use small throttle movements until the system can learn. You’ll be able to see a small representation of the VE table and how much of it has changed on the auto tune screen. (green and yellow cells in the table to the right in pic below) For major changes the cells will turn red. Once you stop seeing red it means its making smaller changes and your tune is close.
You should be able to get it pretty well dialed in on the VE table alone. Blipping the throttle hard may still cause slight lean areas. Adjust the acceleration enrichment fuel to correct it. It acts like a carb squirter and dumps in an extra load of fuel based on TPS/MAP tables.
Should get you to the point you could easily drive it to a tuner anyway. Good luck!
03-27-2017, 11:39 AM
#127
First off, great job on this build! a truck like this with the turbo kit laid out like you did is definitely on my bucket list...so get yours figured out so I can copy it later on ;-)
Secondly, what ForcedFed said is dead on with the tuning. I am definitely still a newbie when it comes to MS3 but FWIW (use at your own risk), I will tell you how I got rid of my throttle blip hesitation....it was a couple of things. One is there is a % TPS to activate idle, my factory file was at 15% I think, or something high like that which caused this abrupt snap in power when trying to lightly cruise through a parking lot.
I changed it to 2% and it made the car much more driveable with a stiff clutch (T56). I also made the TPS calibrate on start-up each time to be sure it doesn't drift with TB wear or the like.
I would say the biggest thing that helped was changing the amount that the TPS, AFR & MAP were filtered. I believe factory setting is 50%...I moved these to 80-90% (so 20-10% filtered/averaged) and that completely cleared up my hesitation.
During autotune set your correction to 100% and "very easy" or whatever to get the quickest change you can while you are dialing it in.
Regarding the accel enrichment, yes this was a pain to tune. I am not sure who coined the statement (Denmah maybe?) but just keep messing with this until you get the throttle response you want, don't worry about the AFR (mine is very responsive when my AFR is REALLY fat). Of course do this after you get the main VE in good shape.
MS3 experts, correct as necessary so this guy doesn't break his ride because of me ha
Secondly, what ForcedFed said is dead on with the tuning. I am definitely still a newbie when it comes to MS3 but FWIW (use at your own risk), I will tell you how I got rid of my throttle blip hesitation....it was a couple of things. One is there is a % TPS to activate idle, my factory file was at 15% I think, or something high like that which caused this abrupt snap in power when trying to lightly cruise through a parking lot.
I changed it to 2% and it made the car much more driveable with a stiff clutch (T56). I also made the TPS calibrate on start-up each time to be sure it doesn't drift with TB wear or the like.
I would say the biggest thing that helped was changing the amount that the TPS, AFR & MAP were filtered. I believe factory setting is 50%...I moved these to 80-90% (so 20-10% filtered/averaged) and that completely cleared up my hesitation.
During autotune set your correction to 100% and "very easy" or whatever to get the quickest change you can while you are dialing it in.
Regarding the accel enrichment, yes this was a pain to tune. I am not sure who coined the statement (Denmah maybe?) but just keep messing with this until you get the throttle response you want, don't worry about the AFR (mine is very responsive when my AFR is REALLY fat). Of course do this after you get the main VE in good shape.
MS3 experts, correct as necessary so this guy doesn't break his ride because of me ha
03-27-2017, 12:38 PM
#128
Thanks guys. Yea, since I am a complete tuning virgin with anything computerized I carry the fear of screwing up. Its been a long road to get this far and I might go suicidal if I break the engine due to something I didn't do right in a dam laptop. LOL. Forcefed86 has been helping me along the way on my build as its the first turbo for me as well. So he has been awesome for me to this point.
I looked around in my tuner studio last night trying to familiarize myself with these areas you guys mentioned. I also found areas where I need to make sure settings are right. Like the part that causes rpm limits based on coolant temps. I don't want that to happen at all. I will control that with my foot, LOL. I will go through and do what Forcefed stated.
Forcefed, I can also send you my current tune and you could go through it just to verify the settings. I know I also need to change the AFR load table on the left and my rpm range. I need to set it for about 20psi to start and 7k rpm ( I am guessing the rpm for now as I don't know what it really needs to run at yet )
I looked around in my tuner studio last night trying to familiarize myself with these areas you guys mentioned. I also found areas where I need to make sure settings are right. Like the part that causes rpm limits based on coolant temps. I don't want that to happen at all. I will control that with my foot, LOL. I will go through and do what Forcefed stated.
Forcefed, I can also send you my current tune and you could go through it just to verify the settings. I know I also need to change the AFR load table on the left and my rpm range. I need to set it for about 20psi to start and 7k rpm ( I am guessing the rpm for now as I don't know what it really needs to run at yet )
04-02-2017, 05:46 PM
#129
Finally, I have driven this truck. Been out a few times just going up the road and back with the WG removed so I can get the base tune setup. With a lot of help and emailing with Forcefed86 I have it pretty good. So I installed the WG which has a 10.7 psi spring and the Eboost2 is set with over boost at 13psi. I am not sure exactly what psi it did hit but I only let it ramp up and let off. I only have 93 pump gas in it right now. Also its hard to tell in the driving video that on the 3rd pull I tried to get a good shot of the speedo because when it hits 80mph it breaks loose and jumps to 100 or a bit more on the speedo when I let off. Next is installing the new Hughes converter and freshen up the transmission this week. Then to the Dyno and get it set up for the track where It will run on C14 or C16 and Meth.
I also installed the new QA1 Race series front shocks. I have a set of QA1 adjustable rear shocks to go on but I am waiting for the Caltrac setup to get here this week.
In this idle video, the WG is not installed so it has a death rattle sound on the passenger side. LOL I was worried when I first heard it.
I also installed the new QA1 Race series front shocks. I have a set of QA1 adjustable rear shocks to go on but I am waiting for the Caltrac setup to get here this week.
In this idle video, the WG is not installed so it has a death rattle sound on the passenger side. LOL I was worried when I first heard it.
Last edited by Taxman20; 04-02-2017 at 05:52 PM.
04-07-2017, 08:45 AM
#130
Caltracs and shocks installed. Going to do some more tuning tomorrow to get a closer base tune. Then the trany comes out and the new Hughes PM converter goes in. Might have the trany freshened up next week if it looks like it needs it. Dyno tune is set for the 18th. I'll have a couple more videos then. Hoping to be able to hit 925 to 950 rwhp safely. I don't want to break it on the dyno and it should be enough to compete in the true street class.
04-13-2017, 08:16 PM
#132
This is what happens when you take a stock cased trany with factory planetaries and a burned up drum to be rebuilt for high power.
You end up with 1.69 straight cuts, a bunch of new an internals and heck why not a new case while your at it.
You end up with 1.69 straight cuts, a bunch of new an internals and heck why not a new case while your at it.
04-14-2017, 04:05 PM
#133
04-15-2017, 10:57 PM
#134
Yeah, that trans was good investment and it should help save you some headaches! My guess is the 80-100mph jump is it lighting off the tires under boost. Be careful with that for 2 reasons
1. if your not use to that, it can get away from you kinda quick
2. Make sure you have enough fuel in your tune, and that your tune is pretty solid before laying stripes at 80+mph.
Great job on getting this done, and yeah, ForceFed86 has ALWAYS been a great help to me and I think ALL of the forum! Guy is a class act!
And thanks for understanding I wasn't trying to be a *** about tuning, sometimes things come off wrong when there isn't a actual person talking to understand how they mean things.
1. if your not use to that, it can get away from you kinda quick
2. Make sure you have enough fuel in your tune, and that your tune is pretty solid before laying stripes at 80+mph.
Great job on getting this done, and yeah, ForceFed86 has ALWAYS been a great help to me and I think ALL of the forum! Guy is a class act!
And thanks for understanding I wasn't trying to be a *** about tuning, sometimes things come off wrong when there isn't a actual person talking to understand how they mean things.
04-16-2017, 06:03 PM
#135
Ive been racing a long time. Stock cars, dirt track cars and dragsters. Been loose a lot of times. Sometimes on purpose LOL. I actually feel this will be to my advantage in no prep.
And yes, forcefed86 has been great help. I have also had help from another member named Dave with the tuning so far. He got it to idle great and we ran it for a little on the street dialing in the running tune. We found that it made 14.4 psi on one run. Eboost2 overboost is at 13psi so that worries me that it was allowed to get that high. We were only running 1 fuel pump. I tested the Lamba safety shutdown on the last pull and it worked great.
And no worries about the comments. I know how it is to try and say something and have the other person take it wrong. Doesn't always come across in text as it sounds in person. LOL
As for the dyno, it may have to wait. After installing the trany Saturday I took it out for another spin. Tested the launch, Trans brake and bump. Leaving at 2500rpm it lit the tires up and hit the rev limiter set at 7k, I got off and back on thinking it had shifted to 2nd since the set point is at 6k but it never shift so it lit up again and hit the limiter again. So I let off, drove it on down the road. Seemed to drive fine then I noticed the water temp hitting 250. Turned around real quick to head back, got it up to about 60 and shut it off and coasted back and found that it tossed the belt. Put the belt back on and drove it home, about 1/2 mile. Hit near 230 when I got home. Found it was about a gallon short on water this am. After I backed it into the garage last night I noticed an new rattle under the intake that I don't think was there before. Also found the new trany pan was leaking bad on the front corner. Pulled the pan today to swap the gasket so I could start it again. Cant find a gasket in stock so hopefully tomorrow I can find one at a race shop. I did check the compression before dropping the trans pan. Had between 165 to 185. Problem is the guage is pretty old and is showing 20psi static. So not sure if its showing true at the test pressure of its actually 20psi lower than its showing. I pulled the driver side valve cover to look for anything wrong. All springs look good, rockers are all solid, pushrods look straight and there isn't any debris in the head. No oil in the water and no water in the oil.
Tomorrow I am also going to get a scope to look into the cylinders to be safe. Also getting a leak down tester.
So fingers crossed, tomorrow I get the trans pan back on and run it without any noises.
And yes, forcefed86 has been great help. I have also had help from another member named Dave with the tuning so far. He got it to idle great and we ran it for a little on the street dialing in the running tune. We found that it made 14.4 psi on one run. Eboost2 overboost is at 13psi so that worries me that it was allowed to get that high. We were only running 1 fuel pump. I tested the Lamba safety shutdown on the last pull and it worked great.
And no worries about the comments. I know how it is to try and say something and have the other person take it wrong. Doesn't always come across in text as it sounds in person. LOL
As for the dyno, it may have to wait. After installing the trany Saturday I took it out for another spin. Tested the launch, Trans brake and bump. Leaving at 2500rpm it lit the tires up and hit the rev limiter set at 7k, I got off and back on thinking it had shifted to 2nd since the set point is at 6k but it never shift so it lit up again and hit the limiter again. So I let off, drove it on down the road. Seemed to drive fine then I noticed the water temp hitting 250. Turned around real quick to head back, got it up to about 60 and shut it off and coasted back and found that it tossed the belt. Put the belt back on and drove it home, about 1/2 mile. Hit near 230 when I got home. Found it was about a gallon short on water this am. After I backed it into the garage last night I noticed an new rattle under the intake that I don't think was there before. Also found the new trany pan was leaking bad on the front corner. Pulled the pan today to swap the gasket so I could start it again. Cant find a gasket in stock so hopefully tomorrow I can find one at a race shop. I did check the compression before dropping the trans pan. Had between 165 to 185. Problem is the guage is pretty old and is showing 20psi static. So not sure if its showing true at the test pressure of its actually 20psi lower than its showing. I pulled the driver side valve cover to look for anything wrong. All springs look good, rockers are all solid, pushrods look straight and there isn't any debris in the head. No oil in the water and no water in the oil.
Tomorrow I am also going to get a scope to look into the cylinders to be safe. Also getting a leak down tester.
So fingers crossed, tomorrow I get the trans pan back on and run it without any noises.
04-18-2017, 08:33 PM
#138
Dyno is done for today. Not happy with the final numbers. Made 10psi at 5675rpm and maxed out at 16psi at 6250 rpm. Then the turbo noses over and drops to near 12 psi with tps at 100% and rpm staying right at 6300. The graph shows it really flat. I was hoping to spool up by 4k.
End result was 698.9whp. I was shooting for 900.
So I am going to make a couple of changes. Relocate the hot merge pipe closer to the front of the truck, maybe get a 1.10AR housing and change the setup for boost control. I need to get it to spool earlier obviously. Any ideas are appreciated.
End result was 698.9whp. I was shooting for 900.
So I am going to make a couple of changes. Relocate the hot merge pipe closer to the front of the truck, maybe get a 1.10AR housing and change the setup for boost control. I need to get it to spool earlier obviously. Any ideas are appreciated.
04-18-2017, 09:24 PM
#139
Who's S482 is that again? You mentioned a 1.25 T6? A smaller housing is not the way to big power.
Don't give up on it yet. I'd say you have other issues. My 4.8 makes more boost than that with the 1.32 T6 S480 and a retardo tight converter. Maybe WG's opening too soon? That curve looks all wrong. Seems like something's bleeding off power. Did you build a little pressure rig and check the cold side for leaks? BOV maybe?
MIght check pressure pre/post IC and drive pressures as well.
Did you check your dyno MPH VS RPM for slip?
What size piping did you use to feed the merge? What are the header primary diameters and collectors?
Don't give up on it yet. I'd say you have other issues. My 4.8 makes more boost than that with the 1.32 T6 S480 and a retardo tight converter. Maybe WG's opening too soon? That curve looks all wrong. Seems like something's bleeding off power. Did you build a little pressure rig and check the cold side for leaks? BOV maybe?
MIght check pressure pre/post IC and drive pressures as well.
Did you check your dyno MPH VS RPM for slip?
What size piping did you use to feed the merge? What are the header primary diameters and collectors?
Last edited by Forcefed86; 04-18-2017 at 09:33 PM.
04-19-2017, 07:20 AM
#140
I do have a 1.25 housing now. The 1.10 would be in an effort to get the boost in lower rpm. Right now its giving me most of the boost in a 5-600rpm window which isn't good. I need more range so I need it to spool sooner which may give me more top end boost.
I do have some pin holes at every weld on the cold pipe. Once the boost hit near its max the joints would spit a little water, which I assume is from running ice water in my IC. Condensation. Using a spool gun on my mig made it very tough to weld it all up. So I do need to fix that.
As for other things I have no clue.
I could check pressures by adding some ports. I don't have them in the piping now.
I could ask him if he logged mph.
2.25" pipe to a merge to a 3" pipe to the flange. The current header is a Sanderson Shorty because I had them and they aren't big tubes. 1 5/8" to 2.25" collector. Everything but the headers are wrapped.
I do have some pin holes at every weld on the cold pipe. Once the boost hit near its max the joints would spit a little water, which I assume is from running ice water in my IC. Condensation. Using a spool gun on my mig made it very tough to weld it all up. So I do need to fix that.
As for other things I have no clue.
I could check pressures by adding some ports. I don't have them in the piping now.
I could ask him if he logged mph.
2.25" pipe to a merge to a 3" pipe to the flange. The current header is a Sanderson Shorty because I had them and they aren't big tubes. 1 5/8" to 2.25" collector. Everything but the headers are wrapped.
