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The point is still having boost control without the expense and reliability of wastegates.
Originally Posted by LSswap
The position of the mount is controlled by a standard wastegate actuator which sees manifold pressure.
LOL. Is there more than 1 guy using your account?
Stop trying to re-invent the wheel.
You can get a VS wastegate for less than $100 and have it mounted to your hotside in no-time. It doesn't have to be expensive or difficult.
I even did a write-up a few months ago on how to take a Tial Knockoff and spend $50 bucks to replace the diaphragm and cap inside with genuine Tial parts.
JoeNova, A wastegate actuator is different from an integrated wastegate like a Tial where both the actuator and the wastegate itself are both exposed to exhaust temperature, moisture and carbon. External actuators are less prone to failure.
The Tial and knock offs are part of the hot side. This is an extreme environment for moving parts. If you move this function to the cold part of the engine, you can probably gain reliability.
I had a wastegate get rusted shut. And we all know what happens next.
JoeNova, A wastegate actuator is different from an integrated wastegate like a Tial where both the actuator and the wastegate itself are both exposed to exhaust temperature, moisture and carbon. External actuators are less prone to failure.
The Tial and knock offs are part of the hot side. This is an extreme environment for moving parts. If you move this function to the cold part of the engine, you can probably gain reliability.
I had a wastegate get rusted shut. And we all know what happens next.
I'm guessing you are already working on a project of doing what you're talking about? If so, then to hell with discussing it if you are confident about it working. I can already tell that any argument someone tries to put up isn't going to change your mind. So go for it. I doubt I'm alone on this, but to me this is one of those, "if it isn't broke, don't fix it" sort of discussions. Do it and report back your results.
That depends on the size of the turbo, rpm range etc etc etc etc
Exactly. I don't know why people always think if you run no wastegate that you are instantly going to spike up to 1 million psi. Running no wastegate is the same thing as "pinning the gate shut". And tons of people do that.
Take this thread for example: Gate was pinned shut on a 364ci motor with the cast wheel 96/1.32 s480 turbo, and it only made 23-24psi. Granted he had some really great heads and cam.
On my car with nearly an identical setup (370 and s480) whith the MBC maxed, I could only get it to push 21psi. Because obviously the wastegate is at least partially open on the top end on my setup since I can't pin it shut (Yet).
Exactly. I don't know why people always think if you run no wastegate that you are instantly going to spike up to 1 million psi. Running no wastegate is the same thing as "pinning the gate shut". And tons of people do that.
Take this thread for example: Gate was pinned shut on a 364ci motor with the cast wheel 96/1.32 s480 turbo, and it only made 23-24psi. Granted he had some really great heads and cam.
On my car with nearly an identical setup (370 and s480) whith the MBC maxed, I could only get it to push 21psi. Because obviously the wastegate is at least partially open on the top end on my setup since I can't pin it shut (Yet).
I'm guessing you are already working on a project of doing what you're talking about? If so, then to hell with discussing it if you are confident about it working. I can already tell that any argument someone tries to put up isn't going to change your mind. So go for it. I doubt I'm alone on this, but to me this is one of those, "if it isn't broke, don't fix it" sort of discussions. Do it and report back your results.
I call this being an 'askhole'. He won't take in any real science or results, just his own reasoning to support the far fetched idea. He only asks to try and persuade.
I can only imagine the stability analysis needed to make this crap work and account for the latency of the TB closing and boost dropping, but then opening the TB to keep the boost from dropping too far. Ah! but then it goes high again and must close, but too high and must open...etc. This would be a very un-linear and hard to predict event. You'd be using the throttle blade to control the volumetric flow through the motor that the turbo is compounding. sounds like a mess.
OR you could have a wastegate that uses spring pressure or forced pressure to variably and linearly control wastegate flow to directly control compressor pressure. Much easier.
I call this being an 'askhole'. He won't take in any real science or results, just his own reasoning to support the far fetched idea. He only asks to try and persuade.
Show me any real science anyone has offered so far in this thread.
Originally Posted by cajundragger
I can only imagine the stability analysis needed to make this crap work and account for the latency of the TB closing and boost dropping, but then opening the TB to keep the boost from dropping too far. Ah! but then it goes high again and must close, but too high and must open...etc. This would be a very un-linear and hard to predict event. You'd be using the throttle blade to control the volumetric flow through the motor that the turbo is compounding. sounds like a mess.
OR you could have a wastegate that uses spring pressure or forced pressure to variably and linearly control wastegate flow to directly control compressor pressure. Much easier.
You're in such a rush to call this "Crap" that you don't realize that the overshoot/undershot scenario you described above is exactly what happens in your classic wastegate boost control system. In your classic wastegate system, the turbo has to slow down, the pressure has to work its way through the intercooler, through the pipes, through the engine, through the exhaust manifold and back to the wastegate, etc. I'm not saying don't have a "spring or forced pressure" I'm saying put it in a different location in the same feedback loop with fewer parts and more reliability.
Look I'm not bettin the farm that this will work. I don't have a vested interest in it. I'm not a manufacturer trying to sell stuff. I'm sharing an opinion about a technical topic.
Yes I am concerned about additional hunting this may or may not produce. I'm also concerned if it will produce turbo stall. That's why I'm hoping to get real test results from anyone who has tried it. I won't be able to test this for at least a year.
You can use the throttle to control boost. In fact some TC system do just that. But the primary control of turbo speed, and thus airflow, is down still left down to weastgates. In fact OEMs are now using electronicly controlled gates to give them even better control of the turbo.
I can see the idea, and it could probably work better on a centri setup, but it's probably not great for a turbo.
So, I had looked in to doing a no wastegate setup on my car before, and basically the thing that kept me from doing it, is power control. I don't know how fast of a car you have piloted before, but ask basically anybody that is in the 8's or faster, your car comes to the point of needing to regulate power off the hit to about 1 or 2 seconds out. Sure you can regulate how much power the car makes right off the hit with a 2step and Tbrake, but right after that, the turbo is going to spool as fast as the setup will let it, and the power might ramp in waay too soon. When this happens, the car is either going to spin, or if you are really unlucky, it will do this, like my car shows here:
OEMs use gates. Whatever the bean counters are doing is the cheapest and most effective method.
There's your science.
Since you're all in though- post your results in a year or the day after never when you get it working.
You're exactly correct. But part of that "Bean counting" also includes warranty claims. So utilizing a wastegate saves them money in the long run. Why do you think car companies are adding automatic braking to their vehicles these days? Surely that technology was not cheaper for them.
gates are so cheap these days i dont get why this is even a worry?
and no what ever throttle bs you have dreamed up isnt going to work like you think...
You're exactly correct. But part of that "Bean counting" also includes warranty claims. So utilizing a wastegate saves them money in the long run. Why do you think car companies are adding automatic braking to their vehicles these days? Surely that technology was not cheaper for them.
No OEMs are moving to electric gates because it allows them better control of the engine and thus lets them get more power / better economy / better emissions. It's not all about saving money!
As for auto brakes l it saves lives and thus sells cars!
the most satisfying feeling ive ever get tuning a car is putting 100% in the boost duty table.
Given the many options of boost control...sadly 100% means very little other than with your current config, electronically you cannot achieve more boost.
That most certainly does not mean more boost is not achievable.
Using BOVs or the throttle to control boost places undue stress on too many other components. Your turbo is spinning flat out generating excess heat which not only goes into the air, but oil and possibly coolant too. Exhaust manifold pressure and with it pumping losses will be higher, sending efficiency plummeting. Efficiency is king
Put it this way, imagine I could sell you a devise that would take your turbocharged car and reduce your intake air temps, reduce turbine drive pressure, reduce turbo RPM, increase engine efficiency, reduce oil and coolant temps, all for the meager sum of $100, would you do it?
Wastegates aren't expensive for the common man, they must be worth almost nothing to an OEM. They are also designed to work with high temperature and carbon, just like many other components in an engine.
All that being said, a variable turbine would be an ideal solution in my book, as there arent an funny angles for the exhaust gas too shoot off at, or merge back into the exhaust with, smoothing out overall flow. It would also reduce turbine drive pressure. The only drawback is reliability, getting many small fidly bits to survive with the heat and carbon, but it will happen in time. I think there are some diesels that do it this way now.
Using BOVs or the throttle to control boost places undue stress on too many other components. Your turbo is spinning flat out generating excess heat which not only goes into the air, but oil and possibly coolant too. Exhaust manifold pressure and with it pumping losses will be higher, sending efficiency plummeting. Efficiency is king
Put it this way, imagine I could sell you a devise that would take your turbocharged car and reduce your intake air temps, reduce turbine drive pressure, reduce turbo RPM, increase engine efficiency, reduce oil and coolant temps, all for the meager sum of $100, would you do it?
Wastegates aren't expensive for the common man, they must be worth almost nothing to an OEM. They are also designed to work with high temperature and carbon, just like many other components in an engine.
All that being said, a variable turbine would be an ideal solution in my book, as there arent an funny angles for the exhaust gas too shoot off at, or merge back into the exhaust with, smoothing out overall flow. It would also reduce turbine drive pressure. The only drawback is reliability, getting many small fidly bits to survive with the heat and carbon, but it will happen in time. I think there are some diesels that do it this way now.
Using the throttle does not place undue stress on anything.....you know...you use the throttle yourself in varying amounts all the time
Using BOV's to discharge air is a more extreme scenario and done for specific reasons. It allows fast boost control...without really losing any drive on the compressor itself so boost is always an instant away, and it also can allow people to play with airflow on the compressor map to keep things running more efficiently.
Clearly not for all cases, but for a small few it has its place.
But really, there is almost no real reason to run no wastegate at all. They're cheap, effective and efficient at what they do.
08-16-2016, 09:54 AM
