93camaro_zzz

iTrader: (13)

I might look in to that. Thx.

jimmyg

If you get the turbo sucking some cooler air, it should help a lot. You could also try a different pump. A Bosch pump is like 100$ on amazon. You could also try a heat exchanger with some fans to try and make up for the smaller intercooler

jimmyg

I love this idea!

onfire

iTrader: (17)

Pull your return line off and put it into a 2 gallon container. Turn the pump on and measure the time to fill 2 gallons. Easy benchmark to get a rough gpm.

3pedals

iTrader: (3)

for what its worth, my setup sees almost the same temps NON-INTERCOOLED, but I am spraying 20gpm water/meth preturbo

cajundragger

iTrader: (2)

making some assumptions- I'm getting about a ~5psi drop due to acceleration.

Assuming your 60' is 1.62(from your sig)

constant acceleration from 0' to 60', in 1.62 seconds is 45.7 ft/s2. Density of water is roughly 1000 kg/m3 and I'm assuming you have about 8' of line that runs front to back in the car, not counting any line that runs left/right.

Either way, multiply it out- 5psi drop. I would imagine it is highest off the hit as from the time slips I looked at, the highest average constant acceleration for all were during the 60'. Unless it was a progressive boosted 'glide car.

If you're pump can't supply real good pressure to overcome the acceleration, you may need a new pump. Ofcourse, the faster you go the more 'back pressure' you will have to push against.

I hope it's not frowned up to link to another site- but there is abundant information in this thread on pumps-

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=288728

kingtal0n

iTrader: (1)

generic observations

I see alot of money in the engine/vehicle and yet, there is no turbo blanket, and possibly no coatings/wrap. I also notice nobody mentioned a pressure test. If air is leaking anywhere the compressor will move right of the map, and exhaust gas pressure/temp will increase. Also, I do not see any EGT data.

IMO the first thing I look at when IAT is climbing "unnaturally" is the EGT log, pressure test, and then investigate the insulation aspects of the engine, which are absolutely fundamental and imperative to racing type vehicles.

Nathaninwa

I agree here with some mechanical testing needed and larger hose. I run a 9x10x4 frozen boost core with a tank large enough to hold 16lbs of ice. I always drain the system to just enough to run prior to ice going in. I could get the data on ice tank temps but I launch near 70* and run out the top below 90* melting all the ice and water like warm This is on a billet s480 with it poking out if the hood about half way

I'm also using a rule2000 pump with 1 inch hose


My return line into the tank also runs into a one inch tube with holes drilled to fan the water over the ice instead of one stream

gtistile

Just wanting to update you guys a little here.

Since I last posted I have added all 1" lines and /-16 fittings running directly to and from 417s water manifolds that are specifically made for this intake mani. The addition of the 1" line was worth about 10* total.

I then concluded this must be the fault of the pump not being able to overcome the pressures created by the G-force during a run, so I upgraded to a much more powerful pump that is now delivering a *verified* 20 gallons per minute through the entire system as measured at the return line.

I took the car out the other night. 45* ambient air, dumped 20lbs of ice in the tank and immediately got on the road to make a hit. Starting at 47*, on a short 3rd gear pull from 3,000 to 6,000 rpm I am seeing a 70* rise to 127* in that short hit. I have supplied this intercooler with everything I have been told would remedy the issue and seen nearly no improvement.

Now what?

3pedals

iTrader: (3)

Ditch it all, save the weight, and spray water/meth instead

R Readdick

Hey for ***** and giggles add some timming may be to low can cause high exhaust gas temps, just a thought seems like you have a supper good setup. I don't have no iat gage I have ran 15 # boost mid-mount turbo noentercooled with meth injection . Been 9.90 at 133 and still running lot of passes on it. I was told by a big time engine builder if you have a heating problem two things will help speed the water up or slow it down. I allways over think my issues good luck with it iam sure you will figure it out.

Nathaninwa

I have always wondered about time spent in the core. Since it's thinner than a stand alone cooler, the hot air flows over the core thickness, where external cores the air flows over 10 inches of core. I realize the surface can be same, it's just time in contact with the core itself while under high rpm I'm curious about

SethU

It's been mentioned a couple times and if you've addressed it disregard this...

The first pic in the thread shows the turbo right behind the radiator without any ducting to avoid sucking in radiator heated air. You absolutely must get the coolest air you can into the turbo... it makes a huge impact on your final temps.

A few scenarios, same random figures, except the inlet temp (all calcs assume zero humidity at sea level and zero pressure loss accross the intercooler)...

20psi
70% compressor efficiency
85% intercooler efficiency
32ºF intercooler water

Ambient / Post Compressor / Post cooler (or IAT)
40ºF / 239ºF / 63ºF
50ºF / 253ºF / 65ºF
60ºF / 267ºF / 67ºF
70ºF / 281ºF / 69ºF
80ºF / 295ºF / 71ºF
90ºF / 309ºF / 73ºF
100ºF / 323ºF / 76ºF
110ºF / 337ºF / 78ºF
120ºF / 351ºF / 80ºF
130ºF / 364ºF / 82ºF
140ºF / 378ºF / 84ºF
150ºF / 392ºF / 86ºF

Now, at the end of the run, all the ice is melted and the water is (I don't know, let's say...) 50ºF

40ºF / 239ºF / 78ºF
50ºF / 253ºF / 80ºF
60ºF / 267ºF / 82ºF
70ºF / 281ºF / 85ºF
80ºF / 295ºF / 87ºF
90ºF / 309ºF / 89ºF
100ºF / 323ºF / 91ºF
110ºF / 337ºF / 93ºF
120ºF / 351ºF / 95ºF
130ºF / 364ºF / 97ºF
140ºF / 378ºF / 99ºF
150ºF / 392ºF / 101ºF



Now you mentioned 200+ºF at the big end and only 17psi. The numbers above don't show that your ingested air temp would be THE cause. But, does illustrate the importance of not pulling in air from behind the radiator.

No idea what compressor efficiency is for your turbo, so gonna assume 70% (maybe better, maybe worse)

What would the inlet temp have to be?
If we assume the intercooler is 85% efficient and your ice is now 50ºF water, then your "ambient" air the turbo is sucking in is about 700ºF... Not too likely unless you're on fire.

What would intercooler efficiency have to be?
If we assume the turbo is ingesting ambient temp air of 57.5ºF (you said 55-60) and intercooler water is 50ºF... Then your intercooler is only 16% efficient. Also not too likely.

What would your compressor efficiency have to be if all else were as expected?
57.5ºF amb air, 85% cooler eff, 50ºF cooler water...
About 12%! Once more... not likely at all, not even in the absolute worse case.

My best gueses at this point are: Either your sensor isn't properly calibrated in the ECU software, the sensor is faulty, or there's a combination of things that aren't ideal.

If we had pre and post IC temps and pressures along with air temps at the compressor inlet, it would be pretty easy to diagnose the issue. But I'd start looking a little more closely at the sensor and it's calibration first. I really doubt it would heat soak in that location, in ten seconds, with such a high volume of (hopefully) cool dense air blowing in there... not even with propane torches on the runners.









Oh! You asked before, what the MAT might be without an intercooler at all.

IAT/MAT's w/o IC @
17psi, no humidity, sea level, 60ºF & 40ºF ambient temps

Comp Eff @ 60ºF / 40ºF ambient
65% = 257ºF / 229ºF
70% = 243ºF / 216ºF
75% = 231ºF / 204ºF
80% = 220ºF / 194ºF
85% = 211ºF / 185ºF

Blown06

iTrader: (32)

Interesting discussion here, and I'll add a little info cause my A2W system that I had on the truck was very similar to yours minus the actual intercooler (thinking it may shed a little light as to how efficient yours is or isn't).

Also, my boost comes from an F2 so I'm not sure how that plays into all of this, but my results are drastically different from yours.

So my set up was a 6 gallon tank w/Rule 2000, plumbed with -16 an line with the total distance from tank back to the tank was around 35' of line with 4 90* fittings, 1 45* fitting and 1 180* fitting. My actual intercooler was a real Precision PT2000 though. I'd turn the pump on right after the burn out, run would start at around 70* IAT's or MAT's (whatever you wanna call them). Through a 9 second run at 26 lbs of boost, the IAT's would only rise 2*. I would turn the pump off before the turn off the track. So the pump might only run about 15-20 seconds or so and in that time it would completely melt 25lbs of ice.

Either you have something weird going on with the sensor or that intercooler is garbage at your power level. I know others have had some success with it though.....????

dburt86

iTrader: (2)

SethU and the maths. Beast. Thats a great post.

So it seems that ducting the air from the turbos is really the only option at this point. But my concern is that might not be enough. Even if the turbos are pulling the hottest air coming out of the Rad, thats still only going to be 200-230ish.

dburt86

iTrader: (2)

Or the thing has boost leak and the turbo is spinning at a million RPM creating a ton of heat at what would normally be a reasonable PSI.

Also, i wonder what kind of pressure drop you see acroos the actual core of the cooler.

JoeNova

Has anyone ever actually tested that core, or does everyone just assume its good and pay a fortune for it?

dburt86

iTrader: (2)

x2, ive always thought this. Seems like a bunch of people have similar issues.

pantera_efi

iTrader: (1)

I too design Charge Air Coolers.
Years ago I tested the PFM intercooler on my bench dyno, their R & D program.

What I found :
1. Little temp change.
2. Little rise in outlet water temperature.
3. Pressure core leaks at internal end tanks.

My remade was to fix the leaks, restrict outlet flow to ALLOW the cooler to "fill" with the coolant.

Could you report the cooler water temperature of the inlet/outlet liquid ? (Delta-T)

Lance

SethU

No problem. Ducting is smart, but not the only option and not where I think the problem is. (although I do recommend doing it anyway, cheep density and HP there). Start with the inexpensive and easy. Put a new sensor in and enter it's calibration data into your ECU. It's one thing that it reads hotter/colder, but it needs to be as accurate as possible too. If the calibration is off, then 200+ºF doesn't mean what it says. Could very well be half of that or any random number.

Once that is done and verified true and accurate, move on to hunting down other causes.

Verify temps pre/post IC would be my personal next step.

Random Less-than-ideal, yet plausible data that would get you what you're seeing if the problem persists once the sensor is verified. Any one of them or combination could be slightly different and come up with a similar result. However, the liklihood of so much being so far off of ideal seems a little unlikely to me. But, who knows?

If
your ingested air were 100ºF
Compressor eff 60%
IC eff only 50%
IC water temp 50ºF
AND losing 3 psi across the IC (20psi pre & 17psi post)

You'd see 205ºF-ish


Verify the sensor. Until we know it's right, we don't know anything is wrong.

Then start verifying that temps and pressures are near what they should be at all the various points of interest.